HS2

[jjb1970]

12 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

I vaguely remember a similar claim being made about the seating on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner before it came into service. Without a doubt, the actual seats on quite a variety of airlines are the least comfortable I have ever experienced on a plane. So much so that I actively try to avoid travelling on routes that use this model of plane.

 

At least in principle, journeys on HS2 should be mercifully short, but that is no excuse for third rate seats.

 

I can also testify to the good seating on the Korean high speed services.

 

Yours, Mike.

 

That's down to the airline as much as the airfame builder. They are offered seating options and make a decision based on cost and customer experience. And that's before considering short haul vs. regional vs. long haul configuration. 

 

I have now made quite a few short haul flights in economy where one flight is a B787 and the other an A350 with Singapore Airlines and Thai and the seats are identical.  If blindfolded I would defy anyone to tell them apart as the only tell tales are things like overhead bin arrangement. 

 

I have had the same experience in long haul and regional business class with ANA, Air China, Vietnam Airlines, Thai and Singapore, comparing the 787 with the A350, A330 and B777. There is greater diversity in business class but it's down to age of the airframe and seat design in fashion at the time. Certainly I don't know many options I would select ahead of business class with Singapore Airlines or ANA, including their B787s.

[david.hill64]

4 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

From a technical perspective its not quite the same story as the faster you go the bigger your tunnel diameters need to be so as to take into account aerodynamics while beyond a certain speed you cannot use the cheaper conventional ballasted track technology. There is also a point at which electrical energy consumption becomes ridiculous due to air resistance etc. However as others have pointed out slower trains means more of them are needed and ballasted track is more expensive to maintain than a slab track system.

 

But the average British voter doesn't understand any of the above niceties - to them the simple (if false) belief is the faster you go the more expensive it gets and spending huge sums of cash just to get between Birmingham and London a bit faster is a scandalous waste of taxpayers cash.

 

My question to you is thus whether you think the British voter would still be thinking 'more speed = more expense' if the politicians who kicked this project off had been more boring about the scheme at the start - rather than selling it as this flashy wonder scheme that would make us the envy of the world, what if they had been boringly going round saying we are going to copy the French / Germans / Spanish / etc....

 

You are nearly correct with the technology. Yes, it is better to have larger tunnel diameters as speed increases, but you could adopt the Japanese approach. As I have pointed out here before, Taiwan HSR chose to use UIC standards for civil works, including tunnel diameters even though not strictly necessary for the 300km/h limit. What is crucial as you increase speed is getting the portal transition correct.

 

Power consumption is a potential problem but current collection is more of an issue than power supply.

 

Ballasted track has been demonstrated to be safe at over 500km/h: it's just the cost of maintenance that means that it is second choice for any new line (with the possible exception of France). Korea's original lines followed French practice but the new lines are slab track,

 

But I agree with you that the project was mis-sold as a vanity 'faster than anyone else' willy-wave. But the overspends do not seem to be attached in any way to the speed. Unless someone can come up with evidence to show that it has?

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, david.hill64 said:

But the overspends do not seem to be attached in any way to the speed. Unless someone can come up with evidence to show that it has?

 

I'm not saying they were - but the public perception is that they are!

 

And given how HS2 is a project which, from the perception of the public, was a project launched into the world by the messers Cameron and Osborne rather than a proposal which originated from outside Westminster politics, then the role that public perception of the project cannot be ignored.

 

As I indicated earlier as far as most of the public are concerned the sole reason for building HS2 in the first place was speed - and as such HS2 represents a colossal waste of money just to get to travel between London and Birmingham in 30 minutes.

 

The fact that the prime motivation for HS2 was in fact a lack of capacity on the WCML is hardly ever mentioned by the media and if anyone tries to correct them that person gets ignored or branded as trying to defend the indefensible.

 

At least with Londons crossrail project, the Westminster Government could play the 'not our project - its all the fault of TfL / the GLA / the London Mayor card when things started to go wrong in terms of project costs, but with HS2 there is nowhere else to dump the blame....

 

 

Edited 14 hours ago by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, david.hill64 said:

You are nearly correct with the technology. Yes, it is better to have larger tunnel diameters as speed increases, but you could adopt the Japanese approach.

 

It should be noted that the more space which is taken up by a long pointy front the less space you have for passengers. Not a problem for a self contained system but if you expect HS2 trains to continue on to destinations on the UKS conventional rail network with all its short (by international standards) platforms and the need to be able to see lineside signals (including shunt signals clearly) then that long nose represents a net loss of passenger capacity and a potential safety hazard as regards SPADs.

 

Not necessarily an insurmountable problem but equally one which should not be dismissed and on balance having a slightly larger tunnel size is probably the way to go in the long run.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

At least with Londons crossrail project, the Westminster Government could play the 'not our project - its all the fault of TfL / the GLA / the London Mayor card when things started to go wrong in terms of project costs, but with HS2 there is nowhere else to dump the blame....

 

 

Austerity, Brexit, Covid, Depression, Europe, Finances…. Theres a whole alphabet of political blame written on post it notes in Westminster reception… just peel and reveal.

[jjb1970]

Even in Japan losing what amounts to pretty much a coach worth of capacity by having to use rather extreme nose contours on JR East Shinkansen trains is far from ideal. 

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

At least with Londons crossrail project, the Westminster Government could play the 'not our project - its all the fault of TfL / the GLA / the London Mayor card when things started to go wrong in terms of project costs, but with HS2 there is nowhere else to dump the blame....

 

With any long-running government project there is always somewhere else to dump the blame - we get sick of both parties so frequently that there's a change often enough to blame it on the previous lot.  That's quite apart from all the ex prime ministers the King inherited on his coronation.

 

[Legend]

12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I suspect not for three reasons

 

(1) The phrase is heavily associated with the David Cameron / George Osborne Conservative administration.

 

(2) Like HS2 (although nothing like the same degree) the words "Northern Powerhouse" have been rendered toxic by political posturing and non delivery of anything substantive so far.

 

(3) The words themselves conjure up mental image of a grand 'vanity project' undertaking by posturing politicians and with the debacle of HS2 still ongoing the last thing this Government wants to do is to look like they are grandstanding by championing expensive 'vanity projects'

 

In fact the best strategy for the delivery of the various new rail lines envisaged under HS2 / The Northern Powerhouse is to break them down into smaller and much more boringly titled schemes - For example Litchfield - Crewe capacity enhancement package' or  'Liverpool - Manchester connectivity enhancement package'

There’s probably a Govt Quango now spending millions thinking up a new name . 

[DenysW]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

That's quite apart from all the ex prime ministers the King inherited on his coronation.

Should Rishi and the lettuce be in that photo as well?

[bimble]

2 hours ago, DenysW said:

Should Rishi and the lettuce be in that photo as well?

 

not an ex-PM at the time of the coronation, well, he wasn't, she turned up separately (hilarious clip of an Aussie news programme having no idea who she was when she turned up)

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, DenysW said:

Should Rishi and the lettuce be in that photo as well?

No - Rishi and the lettuce only became ex prime ministers after he became King!

[rockershovel]

Dear me, there ARE some hoary old chestnuts being laid on the skillet! 

 

Interesting to see the mention above of the "metro mayors" and the French building the line. The "metro mayors" are of course, stalking horses for the EU "long game" of de-facto devolution..

 

 

Speaking of skeletons in cupboards, I see today a mention of the Ely Junction project. Nothing like HS2 in scale but still £500m of essential upgrades languishing for want of Parliamentary approval..

[lmsforever]

Sadly  the way anything is planned or built in the  UK  is totally pathetic and is always a complete cock up with people not understanding just why projects have to be ahead of  current  design.. You only have to see works that are carried out at the b.ehest of antis that helps costs rise and are not needed but things that are needed are back tracked such as Euston a vital part of the project. The cancelling of the routes north is a stupid move that will render HS2 completely no use  platforms are to short the high speed trains will have to pull up twice plus the speed is no advance on the exsisting wcml  plus the Scots do not want to put any cash in HS2 . All in all HS2 has been completely ruined by government pushing it backwards and antis getting rediculous projects in place thus pushing up the cost.To only go halfway is totaly stupid and typical of our country

[Not Jeremy]

And breathe.....

[Ron Ron Ron]

A very boring video, giving us a close look at the method being used to build some of the viaducts  forming the Delta Junction.

You don't need to bother with watching it all the way through.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[adb968008]

19 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

With HS2 a dead man walking, to be put out its misery at the earliest date the politicians can arrange, its pretty clear that getting phase 2 built in any shape or form will need a complete rethink.

 

 

Its been doomed from the day CTRL was opened with the name HS1, as it immediately became a political potato at what HS2 would ever be… punch and judy politics doomed it from the outset.

 

 

[DenysW]

13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

as it immediately became a political potato at what HS2 would ever be… punch and judy politics doomed it from the outset.

I am probably mis-quoting Yogi Berra here, but "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings." as well as (probably) "It's deja vu, all over again." The adipose lady is a pseudo-quote, not an attack on the (first-ever) lady in charge of the money.

 

Until the budget speech, everything is a combination of floating ideas, leaked suggestions, deliberate malice from dissenting parties & their supporters (not in power) and so on.

 

And even that is part of the sneaky recent attempts to have 2 budgets/year instead of 1, just in case times/rules/wisdom have changed from April->April.