HS2

[Ron Ron Ron]

12 hours ago, woodenhead said:

.........But also very good planning, if they didn't do this then the cost of completing those tunnels would have risen massively as they worked to put the boring machines in around newly completed infrastructure and that in itself could have been the biggest barrier to restarting the push to Euston.

 

It wouldn't just be massively expensive, there would be no way of getting the TBM's down below and fully rigged.

In other words, there would never be completion to Euston.

 

 

12 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I suspect that they will be tested by going forward until their tails are clear of the Logistics wormhole that Lydia has disappeared down.  She hasn't been heard from since June 7th. I'm not sure if they have to be out of the way before they can launch the TBM's northwards to Northolt. 

 

 

This doesn't affect the TBM's that will be going westwards (Northolt east tunnels).

Those are being inserted via...and will launch from, Victoria Road.

(n.b. The tunnelling between the OOC station box and the Victoria Road crossover box, will not be done using TBM's)

 

The Euston tunnels TBM's will have to start off from OOC, as you suggest, to be well clear of the station box and the logistics tunnel, so that OOC can be completed and fitted out as a station.

 

 

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Edited August 11, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[lmsforever]

I just hope that Euston happens as I think once the line is operating to Brum this part of the line will be forgotten and we will only have a short high speed line ,but thats British planners for you.

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, lmsforever said:

I just hope that Euston happens as I think once the line is operating to Brum this part of the line will be forgotten and we will only have a short high speed line ,but thats British planners for you.

 

My gut feeling is that in spite of the best efforts of the current idoits in charge at Westminster (who will hopefully be removed within 18 months), phase one will be completed all the way into Euston and connected to the WCML at the same time / shortly after Old Oak - Birmingham. Doing so immediately means you can divert current WCML services on to it and thus significantly increase usage (which will help in paying back costs via track access charges and help fight off 'white elephant accusations)

 

However I also feel that with the state of the nations finances its quite likely phases 2 and onwards will be kicked into the long grass.....

[david.hill64]

8 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

My gut feeling is that in spite of the best efforts of the current idoits in charge at Westminster (who will hopefully be removed within 18 months),

Unfortunately the idiots in charge are not elected and any change of government is unlikely to make any significant difference.

[phil-b259]

21 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

Unfortunately the idiots in charge are not elected and any change of government is unlikely to make any significant difference.

 

Depends what you mean by significant.

 

The Euston site has been cleared and as has been explained MANY times the boring machines for the drive from Old Oak towards it will be in place underground ready to start tunnel building so its not as though its going to be that hard to press the restart button at the London end.

 

Similarly further north there have been significant civils works as far as the Lichfield area and if linked in with the WCML then a new incoming administration can use that to provide enhanced services to the North West - something which can be used as a statement of intent and which may reep political dividends.

 

Neither are as 'significant' in cost nor complexity as pushing on with phase 2 would be...

[jamie92208]

According to the latest Modern Railways, a rail minister has said that the funding for the link with the WCML at Handsacre, near Lichfield, are in place.  Certainly three major bridges on the link to Handsacre have just been put in place, one of them under the WCML. 

 

Jamie

[Ron Ron Ron]

Despite all the work carried out so far in the Lichfield area, very little if anything has been done, further north at Handsacre.

Now the long term viability and business case for the link to the WCML at Handsacre is being questioned.

The point being, that because of this two year delay, once work there recommences, it won’t be much longer before work on Phase 2A to Crewe is underway.

Completion of both will only be a few years apart, if that, if they crack on with 2A.

 

Note that once Phase 2A is operational, the only HS2 service that is expected to connect with the WCML at Handsacre, is an hourly HS2 train to Stafford, Stoke and Macclesfield.
A service that was included “partly for political reasons” to get local MP’s onside for the Phase 2A Act of Parliament.

All other HS2 trains will connect with the WCML, further north at Crewe, until further stages are built (e.g. Phase 2B to Manchester).

The questions being asked are……

Why spend a huge amount of money on a link at Handsacre, the main purpose of which, will only be served for a couple of years?

Following the delay, wouldn’t it make more sense to ditch Handsacre and press on to Crewe ASAP ?

Any change in administration, or change of plan following a General Election, won’t see any changes to the HS2 programme before this poorly thought** out 2 year delay has passed.

 

** It is being estimated that the delay will cost at the very least, an additional £360 million !!!

 

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Edited August 13, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron

[DY444]

12 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

My gut feeling is that in spite of the best efforts of the current idoits in charge at Westminster (who will hopefully be removed within 18 months), phase one will be completed all the way into Euston and connected to the WCML at the same time / shortly after Old Oak - Birmingham.

 

And if they are they'll be replaced by a group led by the man whose constituency contains Euston and who has campaigned tirelessly against HS2 for his entire political career - well right up until about 9 months ago.  I never cease to be amused by the blind faith in the current opposition by railway people despite all the historical evidence to the contrary.

Edited August 13, 2023 by DY444

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, DY444 said:

 

And if they are they'll be replaced by a group led by the man whose constituency contains Euston and who has campaigned tirelessly against HS2 for his entire political career - well right up until about 9 months ago.  I never cease to be amused by the blind faith in the current opposition by railway people despite all the historical evidence to the contrary.

The problem is the current opposition are just that, an opposition (to nearly everything the present Government say or do), with no clear policies to do anything differently.

I see no way out of the current political shambles that is Westminster these days.

Bunches of idiots are still bunches of idiots, whatever the colour of the flag they wave.

 

 

[billbedford]

19 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I see no way out of the current political shambles that is Westminster these days.

 

 

I can only see this will happen with the collapse of Net Zero Carbon bringing an end to the gold-plated HS2 contracts. 

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

And if they are they'll be replaced by a group led by the man whose constituency contains Euston and who has campaigned tirelessly against HS2 for his entire political career - well right up until about 9 months ago.  I never cease to be amused by the blind faith in the current opposition by railway people despite all the historical evidence to the contrary.

 

Its not blind faith - its more analysis of the political situation.

 

Firstly you need to remember that when you elect an MP you are electing A PERSON - NOT A PARTY! As such its not unusual for an MP in their role as a constituency MP to oppose a scheme which their party / Government support - even when in senior roles*. In fact being opposed to things your party supports is good for democracy and such MPs should command far more respect than those who simply ignore their voters and blindly go along with party policy.

 

Secondly if the Labour party (or anyone else) wish to be in power for more than a single term (i.e. be a one term 'protest vote') they will need to offer something more than yet more austerity and cutsbacks. Admittedly there isn't much room for manoeuvre financially but what finishing Euston and the link to the WCML does is allow a new administration to claim they are at least doing something positive (i.e. an increase in train services to the NW and a modest decrease in journey times) and it can be spun at as a 'statement of intent' that when the finances are better they will bring forward further schemes. Plus with equipment literally 'in the ground' delivering on it is going to be quicker than stuff which is still at the planning stage.

 

Thirdly accusations of 'blind faith', while potentially appropriate to certain trade union persons plays no part in my analysis. The task before the Labour party now is akin to that faced by Tony Blair back in the 1990s and the focus of the party (or indeed ANY party aiming for power) is going to very much be on economic competence / responsibility and tackling the 'cost of living crisis' (rather than grand plans or sweeping changes so beloved by hard left politicians), yet at the same time trying to remain asperational in terms of what they can do when the good times return. In terms of railways I see that as no new significant schemes being started for the first term at least - but equally the 'paused' elements of HS1 being resumed as a sign the party is serious about what it wants to do in the long term.

 

 

*I remember a certain MP for Spethorne vowing to block the 'Airtrack' scheme to provide a southern rail link to Heathrow due to extended level crossing downtimes despite them being minister for transport at the time...

[phil-b259]

10 hours ago, melmerby said:

The problem is the current opposition are just that, an opposition (to nearly everything the present Government say or do), with no clear policies to do anything differently.

I see no way out of the current political shambles that is Westminster these days.

Bunches of idiots are still bunches of idiots, whatever the colour of the flag they wave.

 

 

 

A good general never reveals their tactics to the last minute. There are also lots of uncertainties in the world at the moment and this coming Autumn / winter could produce more pain if Putin / Iran / China / North Korea decide to be even more troublesome than they are already. Grain prices for example have already shot up again after Putin threw a hissy fit over sanctions on Russian agricultural exports and tore up the agreement to let ships of grain depart Ukraine.

 

As such only a fool would expect the opposition to have a perfect alternative policies in place now, particularly as they do not have as much information to work with than the Government. 

 

I also would observe that its the Governments job to, well Govern properly. If they were / had been more competent then the attacks from the opposition would easily be neutered. 

[corneliuslundie]

I wish that it was easy for politicians to hold to their principles, but it can lead to short political lives. We had a local councillor, a very good one, whom we lost because he had to resign the party (Con) whip because he disagreed with a policy being promoted. Instead we now have a yes man who we never hear about except when he claims to have done great things he didn't do.

And I am afraid that despite your optimism we are simply seeing the major party in opposition rubbishing anything proposed by the party in power without having policies of their own. In England the former is Labour and the latter Conservative, but in Wales it is simply the opposite way round.

But I must be careful or we shall be finding a second HS2 thread shut down. However, the problem is that one cannot discuss major national projects such as HS2 without getting involved in the politics. So perhaps we should just go back to reporting what is happening and avoid discussion of the policies.

Jonathan

[DenysW]

On 13/08/2023 at 06:58, phil-b259 said:

the boring machines for the drive from Old Oak towards it will be in place underground ready to start tunnel building so its not as though its going to be that hard to press the restart button at the London end.

I'm afraid my cynicism is at the next level of detail down. Unless you actively maintain mothballed assets they don't re-start (zero-to-many months after) when you hit the START button. A part of the reason for the US vinyl chloride derailment was bulk cars for a non-hazardous product not being moved often enough for the bearings to survive immobile for 2-3 years storage, and that was 4-5 years prior to the derailment. Do we believe we (or HS2) understand Tunnel Boring Machines well enough to be fully convinced that if they aren't fired up to do a few metres a week, every week, that they will survive the storage? I'm not.

 

As for the politics stuff, I fear we only have to look at the Victorian railways to see we are repeating many of the bad experiences of the past.  Including the delusion, traceable to Hudson, that Rugby and Birmingham line up on a map with Leeds and York to give the shortest route to the East Midlands and the North-East.

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, DenysW said:

As for the politics stuff, I fear we only have to look at the Victorian railways to see we are repeating many of the bad experiences of the past.  Including the delusion, traceable to Hudson, that Rugby and Birmingham line up on a map with Leeds and York to give the shortest route to the East Midlands and the North-East.

I thought the NE has already been erased from the HS2+ developments, with Manchester the ultimate and logical destination after Brum.

The rest is now just going to be "upgraded" current routes, whatever that might mean.

Leeds & Newcastle will be better served by the ECML

[rockershovel]

Another thing no-one is talking about is that HS2, Tideway and several lesser projects are heading towards substantial completion in the foreseeable future. With (for all practical purposes) nil investment in commercial industry in this country, and the construction industry no longer capable of competing in the overseas market, we are heading towards a collapse in the construction sector which will make 1990-91 look tame by comparison. 

 

I'd suspect that we are heading for a reprise of 1991-5, with the eventually resumption of works on HS2 being politically inevitable (at least so that the London and Birmingham ends actually connect to something) but substantial modification of the present forms of contract. 

[rockershovel]

I'd be very interested to know what is really intended with the two TBMs. Its not unprecedented to put TBMs into the ground before required, and oil rigs are routinely mothballed for long periods.

 

It's certainly a major challenge, and it won't be cheap but it could be done. 

[corneliuslundie]

If they do have to start up the TBMs once a month and run them for long enough to move forward a yard or two, how long before they reach Euston? Job done.

Tongue in cheek.

Jonathan

[Bernard Lamb]

28 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

If they do have to start up the TBMs once a month and run them for long enough to move forward a yard or two, how long before they reach Euston? Job done.

Tongue in cheek.

Jonathan

.......... and there are still plenty of people working on the site at Euston to welcome them when they arrive. 😃

Bernard

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, DenysW said:

I'm afraid my cynicism is at the next level of detail down. Unless you actively maintain mothballed assets they don't re-start (zero-to-many months after) when you hit the START button. A part of the reason for the US vinyl chloride derailment was bulk cars for a non-hazardous product not being moved often enough for the bearings to survive immobile for 2-3 years storage, and that was 4-5 years prior to the derailment. Do we believe we (or HS2) understand Tunnel Boring Machines well enough to be fully convinced that if they aren't fired up to do a few metres a week, every week, that they will survive the storage? I'm not.

 

As for the politics stuff, I fear we only have to look at the Victorian railways to see we are repeating many of the bad experiences of the past.  Including the delusion, traceable to Hudson, that Rugby and Birmingham line up on a map with Leeds and York to give the shortest route to the East Midlands and the North-East.

(1) The machines are not in place yet - and won’t be for a while, plus there is a need to drive them a specified distance away from Old Oak before that concrete box can start to be fitted out as a station .Consequently the timeframe between them being ‘parked’ and an incoming Government potentially changing its mind will be relatively short - plus I’m sure the engineers actually responsible for them will find ways to ensure they remain serviceable.

 

(2) Actually when it comes to the East Midlands (I.e. Nottingham / Derby area) HS2 would indeed give the fastest journey time to London even with a sidestep via Birmingham. It’s only when you get to West Yorkshire does it start to fall apart compared to the ECML. However as things stand however the entire HS2 route to Leeds remains ‘safeguarded’ so in theory the decision to scrap it could be reversed with relatively little pain.

[phil-b259]

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

I thought the NE has already been erased from the HS2+ developments, with Manchester the ultimate and logical destination after Brum.

The rest is now just going to be "upgraded" current routes, whatever that might mean.

Leeds & Newcastle will be better served by the ECML

It mostly has (though the entire route to Leeds remains Safeguarded for the moment IIRC).

 

However the section from the delta junction near Birmingham to a point close to East Midlands airport remains in the plan with the intention of linking in to the current network so HS2 trains can serve Derby, Nottingham (and Sheffield via the MML).

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

.......... and there are still plenty of people working on the site at Euston to welcome them when they arrive. 😃

Bernard

That won’t last….. The people currently at Euston have been told to ‘make the site safe’ and then it will be mothballed. By the time the TMBs are clear of Old Oak and  positioned ready to drill onwards to Euston it’s quite likely there won’t be anyone to receive them (unless the Government changes it’s mind)

[Pete the Elaner]

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

I thought the NE has already been erased from the HS2+ developments, with Manchester the ultimate and logical destination after Brum.

The rest is now just going to be "upgraded" current routes, whatever that might mean.

Leeds & Newcastle will be better served by the ECML

 

Surely you know how project budgets work?

Whole project from London to Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds & Glasgow is branded HS2 & costs £200bn.

That is too expensive, so it gets split. Birmingham is kept as HS2, Manchester is HS2a, Sheffield-Leeds is HS3 & Glasgow is HS4. HS3 & HS4 get shoved into a 'filing cabinet' somewhere, which in the modern world is just archived off to some cheap storage which can be accessed at a later date.

HS2 no longer contains the bits which have been re-classified, so has become much cheaper. It is a neat trick.

The either 1 of 2 options occur:

HS2 fails so HS3 & HS4 do not get reviewed.

or

HS2 works well & others want similar upgrades. HS3 & HS4 get pulled out of storage & re-branded. A committee gets paid a huge sum to review the plans & make minor changes then new budgets are created to build them.

[lmsforever]

The last message really sums up big projects in the UK we cannot build anything that is essential to the UK without groups bleating they should have the funds and then the green world who want us to stop traveling anywhere or using a horse!     HS2 is a project that will show its worth in twenty years   all of the antis can only see now with the construction causing  problems now, I say to them  give it five years and you wont know the line is there.  Locally  construction is starting to ramp up  in Wendover the bridge over the A413 and the Chiltern line is under way and the bridge work will be seen in November .The area before the tunnels in Wendover is taking shape and towards Aylesbury and beyond is taking shape rapidly ,the viaduct behind Aylesbury has been started.  This morning I went to Quainton and where the A41 will bypass Waddesdon is really coming on ,roads are taking shape and the bridge over the railway is well underway and the bypass is started from the north plus the new A41 is built and ready when interchange is completed.Overall  we are in an area of progress as they say watch this space!!!

[Ron Ron Ron]

The M42 close to the NEC was closed over the last weekend and a bit, so that the first of the two bridges that previously carried the A452 over the motorway could be demolished and removed.

The second bridge will be demolished in a few months time.

 

These bridges formed a roundabout, over the motorway, but there were no slip roads to form a junction with the M42.

They have been replaced by the new bridge, installed about 18 months ago (or longer) just a bit to the south.

 

HS2 will plough straight through this site, diagonally to the motorway, just to the north of the new HS2 Birmingham Interchange station.

The old bridges and road layout were in the path of a new box bridge that'll be be constructed here, to carry the new railway across the M42.

 

 

https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/hs2-removes-bridge-over-m42-14-hours-ahead-of-schedule

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Google Maps....

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.463368,-1.7080782,1497m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu

 

 

 

 

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Edited August 15, 2023 by Ron Ron Ron