HS2

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, DK123GWR said:

Why didn't HS2 come in at Elizabeth Line level, deliver Mancunians (and Brummies) to Tottenham Ct. Rd. directly to do their shopping, and progress to the cheaper boonies in Kent to turn the trains around?

Any tunnel would have to be at deep level as there are so many others through central London to avoid. The Elizabeth line didn't have an easy route, missing existing structures by metres or less in some places, it was not an easy route to design. and build.

 

HS2 is being built to be capable of European size double deck cars if needed and is considerably larger diameter per tunnel core than Crossrail.

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, DenysW said:

Why didn't HS2 come in at Elizabeth Line level, deliver Mancunians (and Brummies) to Tottenham Ct. Rd. directly to do their shopping, and progress to the cheaper boonies in Kent to turn the trains around? No vastly costly interchange at Old Oak Common (aka "The Scrubs"), no vastly costly terminus at Euston. Perhaps a possibility of linking up to HS1 in Kent as well, with all passport controls in France.

Because:

1. They needed some commercial redevelopment of Euston - it's not a historic building like Paddington or Kings Cross so ripe for a Liverpool Street office over burial.  All that money benefits the exchequer and the dividends on construction companies et al.
2. Old Oak Common so you can decamp people earlier if Euston is out - rather apt now that Euston is out for several years.
3. No link to HS1 no-one wants international travel which isn't seamless and since 2016 the distance between Europe and the UK has been growing fast.  However a 2 year pause on Euston does mean it's the next Government's problem and who knows perhaps a new European alliance leading to the Old Oak tunnels going under London towards Stratford - though that seems more than a little unlikely.
4. WHy the heck would Mancunians and Brummies want to go to Oxford St to do their shopping - I can get my fill of sweeties up north and there is very little London shops have to offer that cannot be bought locally or online.  Perhaps pop down for a West End show, or just wait for it to go on the road.  In fact I cannot think of a good reason to want to go down to London except for work and very soon I'll be done with that, certainly before HS2 is completed.

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Because:

1. They needed some commercial redevelopment of Euston - it's not a historic building like Paddington or Kings Cross so ripe for a Liverpool Street office over burial.  All that money benefits the exchequer and the dividends on construction companies et al.
2. Old Oak Common so you can decamp people earlier if Euston is out - rather apt now that Euston is out for several years.
3. No link to HS1 no-one wants international travel which isn't seamless and since 2016 the distance between Europe and the UK has been growing fast.  However a 2 year pause on Euston does mean it's the next Government's problem and who knows perhaps a new European alliance leading to the Old Oak tunnels going under London towards Stratford - though that seems more than a little unlikely.
4. WHy the heck would Mancunians and Brummies want to go to Oxford St to do their shopping - I can get my fill of sweeties up north and there is very little London shops have to offer that cannot be bought locally or online.  Perhaps pop down for a West End show, or just wait for it to go on the road.  In fact I cannot think of a good reason to want to go down to London except for work and very soon I'll be done with that, certainly before HS2 is completed.

5. Sending HS2 trains into TCR would have required a considerably bigger station (with at least one more platform in each direction) or would have hammered capacity on the line as a whole.  This is because most people using inner London train metro services are carrying very little luggage, so take almost no time to disembark through multiple wide doors per car.  Long distance travellers on HS2 trains are going to be getting out through narrower doors at the end of each coach, with many of them unstacking luggage from racks.  A metro train can complete egress/entry in well under 30 seconds; compare that to the 2-3 minutes for a Pendolino to complete the same at, say, Birmingham New Street.  In the time an HS2 train is sat at TCR, at least two full metro trains could have been and gone; how many HS2 trains are there going to be per hour?

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 hours ago, DenysW said:

......Why didn't HS2 come in at Elizabeth Line level, deliver Mancunians (and Brummies) to Tottenham Ct. Rd. directly to do their shopping, and progress to the cheaper boonies in Kent to turn the trains around? .........

 

A long list of reasons why that would be wholly impractical and ultra expensive.

 

Already mentioned that HS2 is being built to UIC GC gauge, with the original intention that the primary train fleet would be built to this larger loading gauge, with a secondary fleet of "classic compatible" stock.

The former (captive) fleet being restricted to operation solely on HS2 infrastructure and the latter able to operate beyond the northern limits of HS2, to serve certain destinations not directly on the new line.

HS2 is designed to support the use of European type, full sized double deck trains.

 

That train fleet plan has since been revised and the initial fleet of trains will be "classic compatible" only.

However, at the London end, there is no way the larger gauge (captive) trains could run onto the classic network and certainly wouldn't' be compatible with the Crossrail tunnels.

 

Further..... the Elizabeth Line is a high frequency, high passenger capacity metro line (it'll be running 24 tph in the peaks in the central core, from next month).

The EL trains will be running at 2.5 minute intervals in the central core, requiring brief station stops.

It is thought that this frequency can be increased further in the fullness of time.

There's no way that long distance or inter-regional trains could be interlaced with this high frequency operation, without a serious reduction in capacity.

There would be no capacity to fit them in and station dwell times would be far too long.

 

HS2 trains will be 200 & 400 metres long.

The 9-car EL trains are about 205 metres long.

Although the platforms at the new, underground central core stations, have been built with passive provision to be extended to accommodate 11-car EL trains, 400 metre long trains would not be possible, without significant longer platforms and larger stations than built.

 

The EL central core stations have platform edge doors, specifically designed to align and work with the 3-door per vehicle EL trains.

HS2 trains, or any other trains, would not be able to use the station platforms, as built and configured.

 

There's a lot more (e.g. Automatic train operation, etc, etc.....).

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

A YouTube video, taken from a train window, showing HS2 work alongside the Chiltern Line, from West Ruislip towards the Colne Valley.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

 

[DenysW]

Many thanks.

 

In summary: HS2 is too big, too long, and, ironically, too slow to fit onto the Elizabeth Line without major disruption to it. All for good reasons. The area around Euston was such a dump you could bomb it without anyone (except the residents) caring too much.

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, DenysW said:

As this topic seems welcoming to re-starting old battles/re-opening old wounds ...

 

Why didn't HS2 come in at Elizabeth Line level, deliver Mancunians (and Brummies) to Tottenham Ct. Rd. directly to do their shopping, and progress to the cheaper boonies in Kent to turn the trains around? No vastly costly interchange at Old Oak Common (aka "The Scrubs"), no vastly costly terminus at Euston. Perhaps a possibility of linking up to HS1 in Kent as well, with all passport controls in France.

 

I suspect this has already been covered, but I'm only the most recent 30-50 pages into the thread.

Very simple really.  HS 2 is being built to relieve major capacity concerns on the WCML and was the cheaper alternative to widening the WCML itself.   Therefore is strikes me as logical that passengers who currently use the WCML via Euston could continue to do sp with no major alteration to their onward etc journeys.   Ultimately there might still be some passenger transfer from St Pancras and Kings Cross - maybe?  Aand they are near Euston anyway in overall access terms.)

 

If it was being built to relieve capacity on the GWML then logically it would have terminated in the vicinity of Paddington

[Edwin_m]

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Very simple really.  HS 2 is being built to relieve major capacity concerns on the WCML and was the cheaper alternative to widening the WCML itself.   Therefore is strikes me as logical that passengers who currently use the WCML via Euston could continue to do sp with no major alteration to their onward etc journeys.   Ultimately there might still be some passenger transfer from St Pancras and Kings Cross - maybe?  Aand they are near Euston anyway in overall access terms.)

 

If it was being built to relieve capacity on the GWML then logically it would have terminated in the vicinity of Paddington

Early in the development of HS2 there was a report that considered several dozen sites in London before concluding that Euston was the best option - it may still be on the Web somewhere.  So I think if there had been a better alternative they would have gone for it even if it altered the onward travel route of passengers who would travel via Euston today.  

[Ron Ron Ron]

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Victoria Road Crossover Box, to the west of OOC.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

Pushing up the cost of HS2 by hundreds of millions. 

"Green tunnels"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[jamie92208]

42 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

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Victoria Road Crossover Box, to the west of OOC.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I presume that the tunnels will come through the lower section that's being excavated now. 

27 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Pushing up the cost of HS2 by hundreds of millions. 

"Green tunnels"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I agree but sadly they were a necessary political bribe needed to get the act through parliament. 

 

Jamie

[woodenhead]

Daddy why did HS2 cost so much?

 

Because the party in power had to bribe it's own MPs to vote in favour of it.

 

And why didn't it get to Manchester and the north?

 

Because it wasn't going to have many MPs there

Edited May 1, 2023 by woodenhead
mispelling

[Ron Ron Ron]

34 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I presume that the tunnels will come through the lower section that's being excavated now. …..

I think you’re right.

You can see the excavation of the next level starting to take place, below the concrete cross beams.

That next level will be the one on which the track bed will be laid.

 

 

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[Davexoc]

Went to The Buckinghamshire Railway Centre at Quainton today and thought I might have been able to see a bit more of HS2 than I did, but apart from mounds of earth, there is very little visible. Looking back towards Aylesbury I think we can ascertain where the Quainton HS2 Railhead is by the state of the rails, just beyond that second dodgey looking dip. I guess that fencing on the right is where the aggregate from Tytherington gets unloaded.

 

 

Looking the other way there is just a truncated line with Stop board. The red and white poles beyond the bridge are somewhere near where HS2 should start to run alongside the EWR to Aylesbury link at some point in the future. I'm assuming that the BRC has been gifted some of the lifted track panels....

 

[Dunsignalling]

16 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Daddy why did HS2 cost so much?

 

Because the party in power had to bribe it's own MPs to vote in favour of it.

 

And why didn't it get to Manchester and the north?

 

Because it wasn't going to have many MPs there

Only a slight oversimplification, I suspect!

 

TBH, if "The North" wants to truly prosper, it needs their citizens to spend more of their cash locally rather than during trips elsewhere. That means offering them the goods and services they have historically felt the need to travel to London for.  

 

I live "down west", a relative retail desert according to some and, as a single male, have never regarded "shopping" as an end in itself. Ally Pally was my last regular reason for going and I haven't bothered with that for seven or eight years. Getting there (and, worse, back again after a day on my feet) just became too much like hard work. 

 

The few things I can't get by driving for less than half the time it takes an IET to get from Exeter to Paddington are easily ordered on-line and delivered to my door, usually within 24 hours.

 

I've not been anywhere near Tottenham Court Road since we got a branch of Richer Sounds and the only shop I specifically went to London for was Victor's, which was some time ago! 

 

"Cultural" and/or "grockling" trips to the capital happen about once a decade for me, but I seem to have skipped the last one! The most recent must have been about 2005 when I and a couple of mates took a train into town one wet day when we were holidaying in Kent. 

 

Am I missing out? Not that I've noticed. If the old saying is true, I've evidently been "tired of life" for most of mine...

 

John

Edited May 2, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

TBH, if "The North" wants to truly prosper, it needs their citizens to spend more of their cash locally rather than during trips elsewhere. That means offering them the goods and services they have historically felt the need to travel to London for.  

 

Absolutely. How many regional opera houses and symphony orchestras would the HS2 budget support?

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Absolutely. How many regional opera houses and symphony orchestras would the HS2 budget support?

They could always borrow money for themselves surely?  Hs2 is being built using borrowed money so clearly there is moneu out there lookin g ti be borrowed.

 

As far as 'going to London' is concerned that somewhat misses the point of HS2 because its justification doesn't really depend on more people going to London but on the number of trains currently running on the WCML and likely to run on it in the future.

 

Trains uses line capacity and the greater the speed and acceleration mix of those trains the more difficult it becomes to accommodate them all.  Passengers are in fact probably less important in line capacity terms at times than adding a couple of container trains carrying goods for shops in the North and Midlands which would stop people making shopping trips to London.

[Dunsignalling]

6 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

They could always borrow money for themselves surely?  Hs2 is being built using borrowed money so clearly there is moneu out there lookin g ti be borrowed.

 

As far as 'going to London' is concerned that somewhat misses the point of HS2 because its justification doesn't really depend on more people going to London but on the number of trains currently running on the WCML and likely to run on it in the future.

 

Trains uses line capacity and the greater the speed and acceleration mix of those trains the more difficult it becomes to accommodate them all.  Passengers are in fact probably less important in line capacity terms at times than adding a couple of container trains carrying goods for shops in the North and Midlands which would stop people making shopping trips to London.

I think we are barely a generation away from physical shops being consigned to history, wherever they are located!

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think we are barely a generation away from physical shops being consigned to history, wherever they are located!

Not quite - itf our town is any guide the premises will survive becoming either charity shops or yet another bl**dy coffee shop or restaurant.    And people do travel here - in some cases by train!! - to actually frequent such establishments.    

[corneliuslundie]

Don't forget hairdressers. Not something you can buy from Amazon. And nail bars.

But all the goods people buy, however they buy them, need to be transported. And that should as far as possible be by rail. Not by ever more lorries covering long distance routes where trains would be quicker, cheaper and more environmentally friendly. That is why we need lines like HS2. To allow more freight on the WCML.

But that doesn't seem to register with the politicians.

Jonathan

[woodenhead]

40 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Don't forget hairdressers. Not something you can buy from Amazon.

Have you not heard of hair clippers.  Not been to a hairdresser in over a decade

[woodenhead]

I do wonder whether they would have been better off building the tunnels for HS2 right under the WCML all the way to Watford.  
 

It could pop back down from time to time thereafter to avoid all the WCML towns along the way before staying above ground from the Midlands onwards. 
 

Might have saved a fortune.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I do wonder whether they would have been better off building the tunnels for HS2 right under the WCML all the way to Watford.  

Nah.

On stilts above the WCML, with a double deck Euston station.🙂

Cheaper than tunnels.

 

[woodenhead]

42 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Nah.

On stilts above the WCML, with a double deck Euston station.🙂

Cheaper than tunnels.

 

Well that modern OHLE is built to withstand anything….