Formula 1, 2020

[Hobby]

I think the fitness side of things in todays racing can't be underestimated. With respect to Fangio, who was certainly the best of his time (though how much better than Moss is open to debate) I am not sure that he could have coped with what the modern driver has to, simply I don't believe he was fit enough to cope with the constant G forces and would have been his undoing. Whether he could have got himself fit enough to compete, I am not sure at all that he could. Driving a modern F1 car is very different to the cars of the 50s and 60s. I expect other drivers of that era would also have had to change their lifestyles if they'd have wanted to compete now.

 

Statistics-wise (looking at percentages as well as totals), especially if he completes his seventh championship, he is probably has earned the right to GOAT. Though, as ever, the only real way to tell is to put the drivers of each era in the same car, which is impossible. I'd say with some commitment that he is definitely the greatest British F1 driver, though.

[fezza]

23 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

That is an impossible comparison to make.

Fitness was not really considered until relatively recently, so anyone who did take this seriously put themselves at a massive advantage. You can't give yourself the same advantage now because everyone takes fitness more seriously.

Safety is much better now, so drivers are able to have longer careers without having them cut short or losing some of it through injury.

It is a totally different sport now. There are far more adjustments to make during a lap or even along a straight in addition to controlling steering, gears, brake & throttle.

 

Yes, I was just making the point that people are making comparisons by calling him the GOAT.

 

The question of fitness in an interesting one - my guess is that you had to be pretty fit to wrestle a Mercedes W154 around the old Spa and Nurburgring on skinny tyres in the rain.  It was a challenge to keep it in a straight line even in the dry.  You've also got to remember races were generally significantly longer then - even Monaco used to be 100 laps. I suspect the very elite of the sport have always been very fit.

 

For what it is worth, if I had to choose a GOAT it would be Jim Clark.  His win percentage is basically the same as Lewis', despite the fact that he drove some very unreliable cars.  Basically, as Hill once said, if Jim finished, the chances are he won.

 

One of reasons I admire Hamilton is that like Clark he rarely seems to overdrive the car and can go fast without going over the limit.  You see very few mistakes.  Like Jim, he is also very resolute - he can get results even when facing misfortune earlier in the race.

 

 

[woodenhead]

The problem comparing drivers of different ages is like comparing Roger Bannister with Haile Gebrselassie - they were both very good in their time but the expectations and abilities of their times were very different.

 

You cannot compare them, they were both very good runners with the respective tools they had at their disposal.

[EddieB]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Russell impresses week in, week out. His fastest race lap, on lap 62, put him 13th, and just ahead of Ricciardo, who had put his best lap in one previously! 

The question is just what could Russell achieve in a competitive car?  He was the pick of the F2 field, ahead of Norris and Albon, but they seem to have been allotted their present F1 seats in reverse order, like some sort of handicap race.

 

How good is Perez?  I remember seeing him come second to Alonso at a wet Sepang in 2012, and thinking “who is this guy in the brown helmet” (a stellar performance in only his second(?) race - finding out later that he may have been held back so as not to beat the Works Ferrari).  A hard racer and not the first choice as a team-mate, he struggled to out-perform Ocon when they were both at Force India.  So perhaps more or less equal to Perez, Ocon has failed to impress alongside Ricciardo.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Stroll had an unusually bad weekend. We have heard that Covid can leave lingering impairments, not least in concentration. While I'm sure he was clear of the virus in clinical terms, I wonder if he had what amounts to a hangover? In F1 you don't need to be very off-colour to be a poor performer. 

What is known as Long Covid can affect people for months, in some cases many months, after they first contracted the virus.  And they can be affected both physically (e.g. tiring quickly) or mentally (difficulty concentrating among other things).

[PaulRhB]

I think Lewis would enjoy the challenge of the old cars. He gets more out of the car than Bottas by constantly trying new things and finding better lines and adapting fast. That’s what made the likes of Fangio, Clark etc so good too. Lewis has maintained a high level of sportsmanship too and with the media always ready to jump on his every word yes his moans are blown out of proportion. Would they rather he do a James Hunt and let his fists do the talking? Well probably yes for the story but only so they could increase the negativity   
What’s great is there is a healthy group of young drivers who can battle it out and keep it entertaining. Thing is if Lewis hadn’t made the jump to Merc when he did he’d probably be in a slower car and mixing it up more with Max etc. Such things can determine stats and make them interesting but relatively pointless in assessing a driver as Alonso proves. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

What is known as Long Covid can affect people for months, in some cases many months, after they first contracted the virus.  And they can be affected both physically (e.g. tiring quickly) or mentally (difficulty concentrating among other things).

In which case Stroll should be given a thorough health check and if deemed unfit to drive a F1 car,  have his license temporarily suspended. Causing a collision and ruining another drivers race is bad enough, without a much worse scenario.

 

I wonder if driving for a team "owned" by his father has made him a little bit too self confident.

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, fezza said:

For what it is worth, if I had to choose a GOAT it would be Jim Clark.  His win percentage is basically the same as Lewis', despite the fact that he drove some very unreliable cars. 

 

That would be to ignore Moss, who had a selection of even more unreliable cars and more often than not didn't have the best car in the field like Clark had. Of the two I'd say Moss was the better driver but never had the best car expect when he raced for Merc where it would seem as though he was told that he was the number two. Had he been given an equal chance like today's Mercedes drivers I think the final result of that season would have been reversed and maybe things would have been very different in the late 50s, early 60s in the results charts.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Hobby

[Joseph_Pestell]

On driver fitness, some will remember Superstars on TV in which sportsmen and women from all sports competed in a multi-discipline event. To the surprise of many, the F1 drivers proved to be very fit indeed.

[fezza]

When assessing the greatest racehorses, you look at who the best horses beat and the quality of the overall field. How does that work out for GP drivers? 

 

Clark regularly beat (and often outclassed) Hill, Stewart, Brabham, Surtees, Rindt and Siffert. He also won against Bandini (perhaps Italy's greatest all round driver and killed all too soon) and Gurney (perhaps the greatest GP driver the US has produced). 

 

Moss was a legend but he struggled against Fangio and was second best against him on a level playing field.  Later Moss was often in poorer cars (his choice sometimes) but its a results game in the end. 

 

Senna is another obvious candidate but arguably Prost was his only true outstanding opponent as Schumacher was still learning when Senna died. 

[rocor]

3 hours ago, EddieB said:

The question is just what could Russell achieve in a competitive car?  He was the pick of the F2 field, ahead of Norris and Albon, but they seem to have been allotted their present F1 seats in reverse order, like some sort of handicap race.

 

 

 

 

 

That was the 2018 F2 crop. So what became of the 2019 top scoring F2 competitors?. The 2019 F2 champion, Nyck de Vries raced in FE for 2019-20, and was  placed 11th in the series by seasons end. Second place man Nicholas Latifi is at Williams, and Number three, Luca Ghiotto is still racing in F2 at the present time, being in 9th place in the championship.

 

[PhilJ W]

Here's one of Hamiltons records that might get broken soon.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/58498/hamilton-s-second-most-famous-record-russell-closes-in-on-negative-f1-landmark/

[EddieB]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

What is known as Long Covid can affect people for months, in some cases many months, after they first contracted the virus.  And they can be affected both physically (e.g. tiring quickly) or mentally (difficulty concentrating among other things).

At the risk of going off-topic, that's a big unknown when it comes to "herd immunity" and asymptomatic positives among the younger age profiles.  Without data, it's difficult to predict any long-term consequences from Covid infection. 

 

Scarey?  Yes - let's get back to F1.

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

Moss was a legend but he struggled against Fangio and was second best against him on a level playing field. 

 

I'm far from convinced his year at Mercedes was a level playing field. Fangio was a world champion and respected elder of the sport, I'd be very surprised if they told them they could race on equal terms. Also Moss was the young driver with far less experience at that time. He admitted himself that he was still learning and that season he learnt a lot from following  Fangio, not a year of equals racing each other. I think the reason Moss is so often singled out is his ability to race and win in many other formulas, not just single seaters.

 

Regarding Clark beating those other drivers, you could equally same the same of Hamilton, with a similar list of world champions and top drivers!

[EddieB]

8 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Here's one of Hamiltons records that might get broken soon.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/58498/hamilton-s-second-most-famous-record-russell-closes-in-on-negative-f1-landmark/

That's sad, because in that time Russell has consistently out-qualified his team-mates, has driven clean races (I'm hard put to think of an incident he caused) and showed maturity in his conduct on and off circuit.

[jcredfer]

2 hours ago, fezza said:

 

Moss was a legend but he struggled against Fangio and was second best against him on a level playing field.  Later Moss was often in poorer cars (his choice sometimes) but its a results game in the end. 

 

 It wasn't a level playing field back then, as there were team orders.  Fangio was the No. 1 driver and the team mate was never to overtake him.  There was even an instance where the team mate had to give Fangio his car, when Fangio's car developed a fault.  I can't remember who the 2nd driver was, it may have been Moss or Hawthorne, but someone with a better memory than mine night confirm who.

 

Julian

 

[fezza]

Moss and Fangio both had access to the latest cars in 55. Fangio out qualified Moss in every GP except the British and we all know the story behind that one. Moss was outstanding but he never demonstrated an ability to out qualify Fangio and arguably Fangio was not at his best that year.

 

But its all a game of opinions.... 

[Grovenor]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

Here's one of Hamiltons records that might get broken soon.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/58498/hamilton-s-second-most-famous-record-russell-closes-in-on-negative-f1-landmark/

Not Hamiltons record, that headline is misleading, you have to read well down the page to find the record holder.

[Hobby]

2 hours ago, fezza said:

Moss and Fangio both had access to the latest cars in 55. Fangio out qualified Moss in every GP except the British and we all know the story behind that one. Moss was outstanding but he never demonstrated an ability to out qualify Fangio and arguably Fangio was not at his best that year.

 

But its all a game of opinions.... 

 

This isn't opinion but quoted from Moss's book My cars, my career in the section on the 1955 Mercedes. 

 

"With Fangio in a sister car as number one, I knew I might not be able to win the championship just yet, but whatever else might happen, I should certainly gain enormous experience." 

 

The next paragraph is obout the first GP, in Argentina, and he was given last years car whereas Fangio was given the new car. 

 

It was not a level playing field. 

 

And that is before you take into account Moss's lack of experience of a top flight car at that point in his career. 

[jcredfer]

1 hour ago, fezza said:

Moss and Fangio both had access to the latest cars in 55. Fangio out qualified Moss in every GP except the British and we all know the story behind that one. Moss was outstanding but he never demonstrated an ability to out qualify Fangio and arguably Fangio was not at his best that year.

 

But its all a game of opinions.... 

 

Team Orders were of the day...  ie. No. 2 driver would not be allowed to pass No. 1 driver.  The thinking behind it was to ensure that one single driver {Fangio in this case} got the maximum driver points that were available, so as to be sure to be best placed for the title.  The second driver got as many points as he was able to collect, out of what remained.  No option whatsoever, for the second driver, if he wanted to remain in the team!  Moss didn't fail to demonstrate that he was better than Fangio - he was contracted to ensure that he didn't beat him.  

 

No longer supposed to be the case, but it is not so many seasons back that a certain red limo was accused of doing so - denials all round were met with a number of noses being rubbed on one side and a wink to go with it.

 

Julian

 

[RJS1977]

11 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

I think Lewis would enjoy the challenge of the old cars. 

 

There was a programme a few years ago where Lewis and Stirling met at Aintree and compared each other's cars. Both quickly came to the opinion that they would be scared to death driving the other's!

 

That said, Lewis certainly enjoyed driving a 1950s Mercedes alongside Stirling around Monza not all that long back.....

[fezza]

There were certainly team orders as there are now, that's why qualifying is the best way of judging pace. You couldn't readily 'fix' that in the days of stop watches and long circuits and No2 drivers used it to make a point to the team. The evidence does not suggest Moss was quicker in 1955, quite the opposite. 

 

Moss may not have had identical equipment in Argentina but it was common for teams to only have one latest spec car available for the first  GP of the season - and it wasn't always an advantage as the teams were often testing unproven ideas or components. I'm pretty sure they had the same cars by Belgium and possibly Monaco. From what I remember reading the 1955 version was slightly shorter, with Moss complaining it had stability issues at speed. 

 

Hawthorn, of course, had a better record against Fangio famously beating him in the 'race of the century'. 

 

 

[Hobby]

In testing there was very little between them, one would set a time, the other would beat it and so on. But Moss has always said that Fangio was the better driver at that time, lets face it he had a lot more experience! Again we are trying to compare two drivers, one of whom was just starting out and the other at his peak, hardly a fair comparrison. 

 

They had two of the new cars in Argentina, the other went to Hanns Herrmann (who is still alive, aged 92!), not Moss. There were several versions of the 1955 W196, long and short wheelbase, streamlined, etc. Some had stability issues which were admitted by all the drivers, not just Moss.  One comment made by Moss in the book (I'd suggest you read it!) is that nothing was too much for Mercedes, the several versions of the car enabled them to pick the one best suited for the circuit, one time they got it wrong and only had one suitable car (for Fangio) so they built two more and shipped them out for the race!! He also said that unless Fangio broke down he was expected to be allowed to win and the other team members were just allowed to get as much as they could from the rest of the points available.

[Oldddudders]

Meanwhile, back in 2020, I am amused to note that Lewis is now 77 points clear of the man in car no 77. 

[Pete the Elaner]

& Hamilton is looking in good form with only 5 races to go.