Formula 1, 2020

[PaulRhB]

57 minutes ago, Andrew P said:

wonder who will be running the Team at Spa?

Looks to be Claire as all the stories so far say it’s an investment not management replacement. I guess it’s Frank and the Directors who move out and Clare remains as team principal for now. 
No doubt with time they may look at that if the money doesn’t improve performance but it seems to be accepted they have good potential. 
 

14 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

I'm not sure that sale to a capital investment firm is a good thing - what a F1 team needs in an owner is someone who is prepared to pour large amounts of money in for the love of the sport without expecting much in the way of financial return.

 

They all expect a return, whether it’s primarily brand exposure as with Red Bull, a mix of brand and product, Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault plus soon Aston Martin or to promote their engineering consultancies with McLaren,  Williams etc. 
It all makes a return somehow and the company buying it is no doubt looking to sell at a profit in the future and benefit from the advertising while in charge. 
I doubt there’s any big investor doing it purely for the sport side, even the big oil money billionaires  

[Classsix T]

19 hours ago, Hobby said:

Oh I agree about the racing, I'm just fed up with the politics in the sports which always seem to follow the red team around, hence my comment.

Firstly, apologies if my comment came over as brusque, that wasn't my intention.

But like yourself I suspect, I've grown increasingly dismayed at the proliferation of double standards in not just F1 but sport in general now money-men apparently run the show and Joe Public is fleeced as part of the gravy train.

 

Nobody doubts innovation drives success in motorsports. At cost. But what is the point? Prestige? Passion? A quantifiable return on my investment?

 

I'm more than ever these days drawn to simply observe F1 literally from lights out to chequered flag and walk away. Especially as although quite rightly an attempt is made within the sport to address social inadequacy, in another double standard, a normal season would gladly take place within countries dismissive of human rights. Wtf?!

 

However, I like watching cars belt around a circuit at high speed, so yeah, hypocrisy...

 

C6T. 

[Bill Radford]

19 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

I'm not sure that sale to a capital investment firm is a good thing - what a F1 team needs in an owner is someone who is prepared to pour large amounts of money in for the love of the sport without expecting much in the way of financial return.

 

As the saying goes, the way to make a small fortune in F1 is to start with a large one!

Very much agree - the number of companies (esp. travel) that have gone bust pre-covid that had been taken over by"investment" companies.

 

I'm pretty sure that it was the great philosopher Brian Clough who once said "How do you make a million pounds from a football club? Start with 2 million".

[RJS1977]

19 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

 

They all expect a return, whether it’s primarily brand exposure as with Red Bull, a mix of brand and product, Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault plus soon Aston Martin or to promote their engineering consultancies with McLaren,  Williams etc. 
 

 

Williams, McLaren, and historically Ferrari are racing teams who have set up their engineering and road car businesses to contribute towards the cost of running the team, although obviously success on the track creates exposure for the other businesses, which then create more money to go back into the teams.

 

As such, racing in F1 is what they are created to do, and - finances permitting - they are not going to go anywhere.

 

OTOH the Mercedes, Renault and Red Bull teams are peripheral activities of vast corporations. It's far from impossible that when money for the parent companies gets tight, or if results reach a level that they reflect badly on their parent company, that the plug will be pulled - see Honda, Toyota, Renault (previous incarnations) etc.

 

The danger with an investment company owning Williams is that they could choose to close down the loss-making F1 team and sell off the profitable engineering business.

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

The danger with an investment company owning Williams is that they could choose to close down the loss-making F1 team and sell off the profitable engineering business.

I don’t see that it’s any different as ultimately it’s the bean counters who will scream it’s losing money and any business owner / board is going to then make the decision on future direction based on that vs their passion for it. As you said the car companies can be brutal in deciding to drop F1 if they aren’t successful and the team, like Prodrive, suddenly lose the vast majority of their funding. Very few manufacturers actually do it fully in house. 

 

8 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

have set up their engineering and road car businesses to contribute towards the cost of running the team,

I doubt very much they see it in isolation as a way to finance the F1 team! It’s a business spun off from the engineering expertise but both are expected to be successful. 

[StuAllen]

F1 have confirmed the last 4 races of the season - https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/12056210/f1-confirms-final-2020-races-with-turkey-return-and-bahrain-double

Looking ahead to the weekend, looks like it’s going to be raining, could make things interesting 

 

[Andrew P]

Still looks like The Vet will be the Knob behind the wheel at Spa, they'll probably keep him until Italy.

[Andrew P]

24 minutes ago, Andrew P said:

Still looks like The Vet will be the Knob behind the wheel at Spa, they'll probably keep him until Italy.

I might be wrong, as the Vet is determined to navigate the rough waters.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/55991/focused-vettel-determined-to-navigate-path-through-rough-sea-at-ferrari/?fbclid=IwAR3zspX-AD3vKM7ct0bKAeOFeZI12Uazfyr9HE6ZZEQ38hXXqMvNDG5AxFI

[Andrew P]

Flavio with CV19? AND IT'S SERIOUS.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/55989/briatore-reportedly-serious-after-contracting-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR0ozGLVPfUA0vjndKvO-0hQYmZt-EJ9h_fKFgyu4myKBPc3p83FZzJpDWo

[LNERandBR]

Regarding the engine modes, the beeb have a good explanation as to why: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53906072

 

Personally, I think there should be 3 modes, Low, Medium and High. Teams would be free to set what those modes were and they'd be locked in from the beginning of Quali though to the end of the Race. This allows for teams to adjust depending on engine lifespan.

 

Switching engine mode allows for more attacking and defending as you have to choose when to use it. Having just one mode for the entire race weekend lessons that aspect and I'm sure we don't want to stop overtaking now 

[Andrew P]

Renault withdraws Racing Point appeal.

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/29739747/renault-withdraws-appeal-racing-point-penalty

[newbryford]

4 hours ago, LNERandBR said:

Regarding the engine modes, the beeb have a good explanation as to why: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53906072

 

Personally, I think there should be 3 modes, Low, Medium and High. Teams would be free to set what those modes were and they'd be locked in from the beginning of Quali though to the end of the Race. This allows for teams to adjust depending on engine lifespan.

 

Switching engine mode allows for more attacking and defending as you have to choose when to use it. Having just one mode for the entire race weekend lessons that aspect and I'm sure we don't want to stop overtaking now 

 

Isn't there a simpler way to set engine modes?

Just set it to high and then rely on the driver to press the go pedal accordingly?

[Hobby]

On an ordinary car perhaps, but this is supposed to be the pinnacle of Motor Sport so things like this should, in theory, be allowed and encouraged as it improves performance...

 

Trouble is if one team gets an advantage through innovation the others cry "foul" and it's stopped... Either it's the pinnacle or it isn't, if it is then they should be allowed to do whatever they want.

 

So is it or isn't it? Discuss!!

[Andrew P]

8 minutes ago, Hobby said:

On an ordinary car perhaps, but this is supposed to be the pinnacle of Motor Sport so things like this should, in theory, be allowed and encouraged as it improves performance...

 

Trouble is if one team gets an advantage through innovation the others cry "foul" and it's stopped... Either it's the pinnacle or it isn't, if it is then they should be allowed to do whatever they want.

 

So is it or isn't it? Discuss!!

Yes and No,

The FIA dictate the width, height, ground clearance, and all manner of things, so restricting go faster modes would be just another restriction.

On the other hand, as you quite rightly say, innovation comes in, and someone cries foul, so when will they stop trying to be innovative? People are paid an awful lot of wonga to make their cars faster, handle better. and repay the owners and sponsors. 

Either it's the pinnacle of Motor Sport and development, or it's a one Car fits all Formula.

 

Carry on discussing Guys and Gals..

[Classsix T]

F1 being the zenith of motorcar development is an oft trotted out tagline its promoters like to use. Fact of the matter is, it ceased to be that as soon as the powers that be decided to clip the sport's wings (and suspension and engines and...) in the interests of reigning in costs.

 

We know why this was done, two or three teams had individual budgets exceeding that of the rest of the field combined. Plus there are those that wish to deprive cars of too many assisting aids in the interest of ensuring driver skills are brought to the fore.

 

Personally I see LMP1 as the absolute apex of racing car development, although I'm led to believe that the endurance car formula is to undergo radical changes.

 

However I don't think anyone can deny, development can only go so far within budgetary restraints. What F1 actually does is innovation within a rule-set. Which is exactly why when one team interprets their way to an advantage, other teams cry to Mommy.

 

C6T. 

[Night Train]

On 21/08/2020 at 16:14, RJS1977 said:

I'm not sure that sale to a capital investment firm is a good thing - what a F1 team needs in an owner is someone who is prepared to pour large amounts of money in for the love of the sport without expecting much in the way of financial return.

 

As the saying goes, the way to make a small fortune in F1 is to start with a large one!

Apparently, Dorilton invests money for one particular family. It is also tied to a company called BCE Engineering.

Let the conspiracy theories arise.

[friscopete]

A designer and engineer  and team manager of an F1 team  told me years ago that if there was free reign on  the design of F1 cars then they would be too fast for drivers  and they would happily use RC    and the driver in the pits or even self drive cars, which he said was the coming thing  .The weak  point he said was the driver.They just got in the way of how F1 should be .We were talking in 1994 after Imola  .I didnt actually realise who he was and it was  pit lane red so  just idling around .His own  team were not there  at the test .I thought he was  a truckie He was doing research work for another team as well  as an Indy /Champ  project which in the end was where he ended up as a manager .Very interesting to talk to some one for  decent while with no PR bollox .

i did find interesting that they say it takes 40 years for tech to mature before it gets cheap enough and mature enough  to be regarded as accepted ie planes ,computers  /self drive cars .He knew what was coming ...at least in road cars .I first saw electric road cars a few years later (1997 ? )when Peugeot were infesting the paddock with silent electric versions of road cars  probably to shoot a PR  promo in the lunch break .Every one was moaning they couldnt hear them coming and they should have an F1 engine sound emanating  from them .

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

11 hours ago, newbryford said:

Isn't there a simpler way to set engine modes?

Just set it to high and then rely on the driver to press the go pedal accordingly?

Exactly. And the team with the best power plant, probably the best technical understanding of their car, and a supremely able driver that understands how to manage the machine he is in, is ideally positioned to do just that. Hamilton won in Spain by just such management, - in that race specifically on behalf of the tyres - over the first dozen or so laps. That required self control over use of the loud pedal...

50 minutes ago, friscopete said:

...I did find interesting that they say it takes 40 years for tech to mature before it gets cheap enough and mature enough  to be regarded as accepted ie planes ,computers  / self drive cars .He knew what was coming ...at least in road cars ...

F1 is a fossil. It's work is done. But it is fun... Rather like horse racing, where there hasn't been any progress since the late C18th.

 

The Fe series should be driverless, that's where the progress needs to be made by going fast in a randomly disrupted environment, with replication of real world events that have defeated autonomous vehicles. That way you get the most rapid progress to totally reliable performance.

[Andrew P]

Once F1 goes all Electric and the noise stops. so will I and many more I would guess.

[PaulRhB]

If you want racing then more restrictions make it more about driver skill, if you want technical prowess then usually the big budgets, usually a manufacturer have a definite advantage. F1 is currently a compromise between the two and innovation / clever interpretation can push the boundary back n forth. If you want ultimate grip and speed then cars are already near the limit of what a human can handle so if you want to go faster you need either bigger tracks with easier corners or banking. Look at the issues in race 1 with drivers having sore necks and the Hulk in his one off race  

Theres already the robocar and VW IDR that have no restrictions but would they be fun to watch in a race series? F1 already needs DRS as the aerodynamics have limited overtaking so much. 
Personally the cleverness in car design is getting the max out of the restrictions rather than the ultimate car that has no practical use, that’s for speed records and cars like Bloodhound not racing  

[Hroth]

4 hours ago, Andrew P said:

or it's a one Car fits all Formula.

 

Which you get in dinghy/yacht racing, One Design classes, with specced hull forms, construction techniques, sail areas etc.  I know its not a spectator sport, but the racing is hard-fought and the winner isn't always the favourite!

 

 

[57xx]

On 19/08/2020 at 20:53, Steadfast said:

Some interesting discussion on F1's latest algorithm statistic rubbish. I don't always agree with this mob of ex Autosport journalists (when they were at Autosport or now they've gone their own way) but I think nail firmly hit on head.

I really struggle to see how these F1 insights add much value. They take away some of the suspense (like the likelihood of a pass graphic "X will catch Y in 3.5 laps") thus devaluing the excitements of the race, or offer totally inaccurate data (tyre wear graphic) and add very little to the show. Some of the timing ones are good, but it's all getting over the top. Add in the post production"beeps" as each light illuminates at the race start and computer generated sponsors at the trackside (the slight wobbling of which as the CGI graphic tracks the moving shot makes my eyes go funny - F1 Play on the inside of one of the corners at Barcelona was particularly jarring) all to me are cost for no benefit and make me worry what direction F1 coverage is going in. 

Still, at least we haven't got certain drivers getting a boost by driving through a CGI area on the side of the track. Sorry Formula E, I can't buy into those gimmicks!

 

 

I subscribed to the Autosport channel on YouTube thinking it would have some good info a while ago. After watching half a dozen videos with their amateurish fanboy "journalism", I unsubscribed.

I think all these extra graphics and CGI overlays with useless stats come from Liberty, trying to Americanise it all. It's very reminiscent of US sports programs I've seen. Putting the "oh no! Driver X is at risk of not getting into next quali round" graphic on the Quali placings is like the false jeopardy they have in all their documentaries now. Totally pointless.

[Andrew P]

Power rankings so far, some good facts.

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/29737516/vettel-bottas-albon-race-bottom

[EddieB]

Hard to disagree with those conclusions, even if they seem a bit harsh sometimes.  Bottas’ tyres at Silverstone contributed massively to his gap to Lewis, but he does seem adept at losing grid advantage over a full race distance.  A bit unfair on Albon, too - he’s still learning the hard way and there are few on the grid who could hold a candle to Max as team-mates.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I rather feel it is Albon who is in the most trouble, just not making hay with the second best car on the grid; really needs to find something quickly to close the yawning gap to Verstappen. Bottas is doing a solid job, much in line with previous seasons; not as complete a driver as Hamilton, but he has done enough on occasion to keep him honest already this season.

 

Assessment of Russell is practically impossible until he gets a good drive. Until a driver is regularly on that piece of track where the podium places are determined it's all unknowable. Recent and highly relevant reminder, the Hulk: he was - like Russell - a dominant winner of the feeder series, bruited as the next Schumacher on arrival in F1. But while clearly a competent driver, some little piece of the necessary magic just wasn't present...