mark alden Posted December 15, 2019 Share Posted December 15, 2019 Hi, Would anyone have any Scottish WTTs for 1971 and can tell me the train head codes for the following services please? 13.04 Perth to Grangemouth class 7 (might be a conditional service). 16.50 Grangemouth to Perth class 8 (might be a conditional service). ECS trains from Glasgow Central to Larkfield (presumably Larkfield was carriage sidings?? Light Engine moves from Glasgow to Polmadie shed. Thanks in advance... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckymucklebackit Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 I don't have my WTT to hand but if this is for application to locos the prpbability is that they were not carried properly, the Scottish Region ws fairly lax in having the correct headcode. If they were carried I would imagine that the following would apply: ECS trains from Glasgow Central to Larkfield (presumably Larkfield was carriage sidings?? Larkfield was carraige sidings and a carraige shed adjacent to Gushetfaulds Freightliner Terminal, as per today's services it would be the headcode of the incoming service with the "1" replaced with a "5" e.g. 1S57 would depart to Larkfield as 5S57 assuming it wasn't diagrammed to return south. Light Engine moves from Glasgow to Polmadie shed would have been presumably the same with a "0" replacing the "1" Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Don't know if this helps much, but in the 1980s and 90s (and still now I believe), there were specific headcodes for unplanned ECS moves around Central; Those I recall are 5V77 to Shields Depot, 5V99 to Corkerhill Depot, and 5V11 to Central station. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 On 15/12/2019 at 21:41, mark alden said: ... train head codes for the following services ... 13.04 Perth to Grangemouth class 7 (might be a conditional service). 16.50 Grangemouth to Perth class 8 (might be a conditional service). There is no 1304 Class 7 Perth-Grangemouth in the 3 May - 3 October 1971 WTT. There is a 1315 departure to Grangemouth Yard, Saturdays excepted, but it is simply indicated as class 8 without a headcode. In fact, the only trains in that timetable with headcodes are those starting or ending their journeys south of the border (class 6); internal ScR services have no codes, just the train class. The return service, also class 8, is shown as departing Grangemouth at 1646. Interestingly, these two services are shown as worked by a Class 50 locomotive. The only other class 50 working in that WTT is 6S68 leaving Carlisle at 1808 for Sighthill freightliner terminal; there does not seem to be a balancing working back south. Hope that's of interest, regards Graham 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark alden Posted December 23, 2019 Author Share Posted December 23, 2019 On 21/12/2019 at 15:35, Graham R said: There is no 1304 Class 7 Perth-Grangemouth in the 3 May - 3 October 1971 WTT. There is a 1315 departure to Grangemouth Yard, Saturdays excepted, but it is simply indicated as class 8 without a headcode. In fact, the only trains in that timetable with headcodes are those starting or ending their journeys south of the border (class 6); internal ScR services have no codes, just the train class. The return service, also class 8, is shown as departing Grangemouth at 1646. Interestingly, these two services are shown as worked by a Class 50 locomotive. The only other class 50 working in that WTT is 6S68 leaving Carlisle at 1808 for Sighthill freightliner terminal; there does not seem to be a balancing working back south. Hope that's of interest, regards Graham Hi Graham, Yes, it was booked a Class 50. The loco came to Perth on 1S25 22.30 Euston to Perth. The Grangemouth trip was a fill in move before the loco returned South on 1M12 21.15 Euston as far as Crewe. The diagram only shows Class 7 there and 8 back. I was thinking there might be head code although I do recall the ScR often just showed Number Dot Dot Dot in the head codes. The Sighthill trip is shown as 6S86 in the diagram not 6S68. Does the WTT show 6S68? The loco for the Sighthill job returned LD to PO at 21.20 then worked 3M22 Glasgow - Crewe / Euston Parcels. Do you have info on head codes for LD Glasgow to PO or ECS from Glasgow to Larkfield? Also... have you heard of Bridgeton TAD? What is TAD? On the WR we had a PAD (Pre-Assembly Depot) where track was assembled. Could a TAD be Track Assembly Depot? And Coabridge CB? What did CB stand for? Thanks in advance :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Coatbridge CB would I think refer to Containerbase, as opposed to the current use of FLT (Freightliner Terminal) for the same facility ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckymucklebackit Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 ...Could a TAD be Track Assembly Depot? Very plausable, the thought that popped intom my head when I read it was Tamper (something) Depot Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 16 hours ago, mark alden said: The Sighthill trip is shown as 6S86 in the diagram not 6S68. Does the WTT show 6S68? The loco for the Sighthill job returned LD to PO at 21.20 then worked 3M22 Glasgow - Crewe / Euston Parcels. Thanks for that further detail. Yes, the code is shown as 6S68 in the WTT. 16 hours ago, mark alden said: Do you have info on head codes for LD Glasgow to PO or ECS from Glasgow to Larkfield? Can't really help with these apart from noting that Luckiemucklebackit/Jim's statement above that the ECS trains simply replaced the incoming service class 1 with a class 5 in the code is borne out in a 1984 Glasgow Central platform arrangements notice: all the Polmadie CSD moves are shown with these codes. The Corkerhill ECS mpves on the other hand are all 5V99. 16 hours ago, mark alden said: Also... have you heard of Bridgeton TAD? What is TAD? On the WR we had a PAD (Pre-Assembly Depot) where track was assembled. Could a TAD be Track Assembly Depot? Could it possibly be Tartan Arrow Depot? The Scottish terminal of the Tartan Arrow freight service from Kentish Town was at the former Bridgeton Goods depot from late 1960s to mid 1970s. 16 hours ago, mark alden said: And Coatbridge CB? What did CB stand for? Caradoc's suggestion of Containerbase is supported by an entry in the 4 Dec 1976 Supplementary Operating Instructions notice which refers to changing a reference to "the Containerbase sidings" to read "Coatbridge Freightliner Terninal". Hope that helps narrow things down. Oh, and Happy Christmas ... geez i must get out more ... Graham 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark alden Posted December 27, 2019 Author Share Posted December 27, 2019 Thanks for all the help and advice chaps... much appreciated Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark alden Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 Graham R... Could I pick your brains again please? I have a Cl. 50 diagram dated from 13/12/71 which shows a LD from PO to Motherwell then LD from Motherwell working 'CONTROL S72' until 12.42. The loco then ran LD to PO and then again from 14.00 at PO the loco works 'CONTROL S139/2' until 21.00. Do you have any ideas what these CONTROL jobs are please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Hi Mark, i don’t know much about the West of Scotland (something which my Glaswegian friends explain to me more emphatically every time I open my mouth), and I don’t have the trip notice which would answer your question. I suspect it simply means that trips S72 and S139 had work assigned by Control as it arose. For example, in the 1975 trip notice for the East of Scotland, Millerhill provided a Class 47 with driver and guard from 10am to 6pm for trip J33 which is simply marked “Work to Control orders”. Almost all other trips have specific duties or shunting zones given explicitly, although some would work to control orders after finishing their regular work. It is obviously quite an expensive matter to have a type 4 loco and crew sitting endlessly waiting for work so I’d assume management were confident that there was enough irregular traffic to make it worthwhile. In The West of Scotland I’d guess that would come from steelmaking and processing, and in the East, pipes for the North Sea oil and gas industry: the Forties pipeline from Cruden Bay to Grangemouth came into use in 1975 and the pipes went north by rail and were stored in redundant railway yards (Leith and Dundee from personal memory but I expect there were others). However speculation at a distance of 40 years is a dangerous thing especially by an industry outsider like me. For all I know these Control trips were “Spanish practices” agreed with the local ASLEF or NUR stewards, although that seems unlikely. (Cue for my Weegie friends to remind me of my mental limitations). Can anyone with a Glasgow South trip notice give an authoritative answer ? The National Records of Scotland, by the way, has many of the BR(Sc) 1970s trip notices and can supply copies at a cost. See here. Regards Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark alden Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 On 24/12/2019 at 12:50, Graham R said: Thanks for that further detail. Yes, the code is shown as 6S68 in the WTT. Can't really help with these apart from noting that Luckiemucklebackit/Jim's statement above that the ECS trains simply replaced the incoming service class 1 with a class 5 in the code is borne out in a 1984 Glasgow Central platform arrangements notice: all the Polmadie CSD moves are shown with these codes. The Corkerhill ECS mpves on the other hand are all 5V99. Could it possibly be Tartan Arrow Depot? The Scottish terminal of the Tartan Arrow freight service from Kentish Town was at the former Bridgeton Goods depot from late 1960s to mid 1970s. Caradoc's suggestion of Containerbase is supported by an entry in the 4 Dec 1976 Supplementary Operating Instructions notice which refers to changing a reference to "the Containerbase sidings" to read "Coatbridge Freightliner Terninal". Hope that helps narrow things down. Oh, and Happy Christmas ... geez i must get out more ... Graham Also Graham Ive now found another 50 diagram for Perth which shows for Perth 06.22 CONTROLP4/1 and 13.50 CONTROL P4/2. Would these be pilot duties around the station maybe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham R Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) Hi Mark, P04 was the trip from Perth to Forfar on the former main line through Strathmore. This was double-shifted in the seed potato season, hence the 4/1 and 4/2 I suppose. I had forgotten that Class 50s were used on this trip when available, according to Cinerail's video "The Railways Of Scotland Volume Seven: Perth To Kinnaber Junction". This includes a brief shot of 50045 fly-shunting vans at Forfar in 1980 after running trip P04 with a brakevan tour attached. I never saw a 50 on the Strathmore route myself, more's the pity. A scan of the relevant trip notice page is attached. Regards Graham trip-P04-1975.pdf Edited January 3, 2020 by Graham R 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted January 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) The 50s often did fill-in turns between WCML sleepers, from Glasgow/Perth. There are pics on RAILSCOT of one on a Freightliner turn, near Edinburgh (St. Margaret's?), so presumably Gushetfaulds-Portobello or similar. EDIT: found them https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/37/779/ https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/37/860/ Edited January 3, 2020 by keefer 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted January 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 3, 2020 Also remembered seeing a couple of pics on George Bert's Fotopic years ago. D409 southbound near Monifieth and D439 on 1M37 (SO) Aberdeen-Birmingham at Monifieth. The captions said early 1970s - both 50s were without jumper cables. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark alden Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 16 hours ago, Graham R said: Hi Mark, i don’t know much about the West of Scotland (something which my Glaswegian friends explain to me more emphatically every time I open my mouth), and I don’t have the trip notice which would answer your question. I suspect it simply means that trips S72 and S139 had work assigned by Control as it arose. For example, in the 1975 trip notice for the East of Scotland, Millerhill provided a Class 47 with driver and guard from 10am to 6pm for trip J33 which is simply marked “Work to Control orders”. Almost all other trips have specific duties or shunting zones given explicitly, although some would work to control orders after finishing their regular work. It is obviously quite an expensive matter to have a type 4 loco and crew sitting endlessly waiting for work so I’d assume management were confident that there was enough irregular traffic to make it worthwhile. In The West of Scotland I’d guess that would come from steelmaking and processing, and in the East, pipes for the North Sea oil and gas industry: the Forties pipeline from Cruden Bay to Grangemouth came into use in 1975 and the pipes went north by rail and were stored in redundant railway yards (Leith and Dundee from personal memory but I expect there were others). However speculation at a distance of 40 years is a dangerous thing especially by an industry outsider like me. For all I know these Control trips were “Spanish practices” agreed with the local ASLEF or NUR stewards, although that seems unlikely. (Cue for my Weegie friends to remind me of my mental limitations). Can anyone with a Glasgow South trip notice give an authoritative answer ? The National Records of Scotland, by the way, has many of the BR(Sc) 1970s trip notices and can supply copies at a cost. See here. Regards Graham Thank you for this Graham, my knowledge of the ScR is sadly lacking a bit. I used to do Freedom of Scotland weeks in the 80s but coming from Gloucester it took a while to get up there, often used 1S19. These diagrams I have acquired are full of little snippets that its nice to learn about. You help is very much appreciated :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark alden Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 Brilliant info guys, thank you all for sharing your knowledge with me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted February 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) just found a little snippet in the Oct.1969 R.O.: "[Edinburgh] SUBURBAN LINE - Class 50s appear from time to time on a down freight 6S85 passing through Slateford between 19.00 and 20.00 and taking the spur to the Suburban Line at Craiglockart. Noted have been 432 on 30/7, 401 on 11/8, 403 on 14/8, 401 on 19/8 and 447 on 21/8." (mentions that classes 25 and 40 have also appeared) Edited February 3, 2020 by keefer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckymucklebackit Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) If we are drifting into "Class 50s" off the beaten track, how about this one https://www.flickr.com/photos/15977833@N07/5319802691 Jim Edited February 4, 2020 by luckymucklebackit 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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