Paul80 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Hi all Today a cought a glimps of one of the Belmont British Pullman trains running through my local station, but it was too far away to identify the type of Coaches they were using, anyone know what they use K or Mk1, I assume from the interia photos on their website they must be k's as the interias were far to opulent to be Mk1's. Is that assumption ccorrect? Thanks Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 They're a mix of early K type, 1928 (all steel) K type, ex-Brighton Belle and 1951 Golden Arrow Pullmans, though most have been rebuilt in some way; those that had wooden frames originally are now metal framed, for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Copypasta from Wikipedia. There are currently eleven Pullman carriages, which are restored and operational. Audrey First class kitchen car, 20 seats, built 1932 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd. for the Brighton Belle. Damaged 1940 by air raid at Victoria station, repaired and rejoined Brighton Belle in 1947. Carried the Queen, the Queen Mother and the Duke of Edinburgh to review the Fleet in 1953. Transported the Queen on her visit to the University of Sussex, 1964. Acquired from DS Lowther 1980. This is the coach that George Cole and Dennis waterman travelled in whilst filming 'Minder on the orient express' in 1985 . Decoration: marquetry landscape panels and Art Deco strip lights. Cygnus First class parlour car, 26 seats, construction commenced 1938 but completion deferred until 1951 due to war. Builders were Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon Co. Used in the special Festival of Britain rake in 1951; reserved for use by royalty and visiting heads of state; made last journey of Golden Arrow 1972. Acquired from North Yorkshire Moors Railway, 1977. Decoration: Australian walnut panels, mirrors and old prints. Gwen First class kitchen car, 20 seats, built 1932 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd for the Brighton Belle. In 1948 was used, with sister car Mona, to convey Queen Elizabeth (later the Queen Mother) to Brighton. Brighton Belle service withdrawn in 1972. Preserved as a restaurant at The Horseless Carriage, Chingford, Essex, and later at the Colne Valley Railway, Castle Hedingham, Essex. Acquired by VSOE in 1988 and joined British Pullman Train in 1999. Decoration: Pearwood shell motif on English walnut. Ibis First class kitchen car, 20 seats, built 1925 by Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. Sold to La Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits et des Grands Express Européen for service in Italy. Purchased by the Pullman Car Company Ltd. in 1928 and returned to Britain for Golden Arrow service. Entered Cunard boat train service between Victoria and Southampton, 1952. Retired 1968. Acquired from the Birmingham Railway Museum, 1981. Decoration: Greek dancing girls marquetry. Ione First class kitchen car, 20 seats, built 1928 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd. for the Queen of Scots Pullman. Ocean Liner services to Plymouth or Southampton and Bournemouth Belle 1929–39. Queen of Scots 1948–54 and 1960–64. Golden Arrow, Yorkshire and South Wales Pullman 1954–60. On the high speed Talisman route (880 miles (1,416 km) per day) 1964–68. Retired 1968. Acquired from the Birmingham Railway Museum, 1981. Decoration: burr wood panels and Victorian frieze. Lucille First class parlour car, 24 seats, built 1928 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd for the Queen of Scots Pullman of the London and North Eastern Railway. Transferred to Southern Region in 1963 and ran in Bournemouth Belle 1963–67. Preserved by Mr E Lewis-Evans at the South Eastern Steam Centre, Ashford 1968–84. Acquired in 1985. Decoration: Grecian urn design on green dyed holly wood. Minerva First class parlour car, 26 seats, built 1927 by Midland Railway Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd. Devon Belle 1947–51. Used in the special Festival of Britain rake 1951. Golden Arrow 1951–61. Acquired from Lytham Creek Railway Museum 1981. Decoration: Edwardian-type marquetry. Perseus First class parlour car, 26 seats, construction commenced 1938 but completion deferred until 1951 due to war. Builders were Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon Co. Used in the special Festival of Britain rake State; used in Winston Churchill's funeral train 1965; made last journey of Golden Arrow 1972. Acquired from North Yorkshire Moors Railway, 1977. Decoration: ash panels and old prints. Phoenix First class parlour car, 26 seats, built 1927 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd, named Rainbow. Burned Micheldever, England 1936. Rebuilt 1952 by Preston Park Works, Brighton, and appropriately renamed Phoenix. Favourite carriage of the Queen Mother: used by General de Gaulle and visiting heads of state; made last journey of Golden Arrow 1972. Became stationary restaurant in Lyon, France 1973. Acquired 1980. Decoration: oval frames of marquetry flowers on American cherrywood. Vera First class kitchen car, 20 seats, built 1932 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd for the Brighton Belle. Always paired with Audrey as a two-car unit. Directly hit in an air raid at Victoria Station in 1940. Roof extensively repaired, rejoined Brighton Belle in 1947. Used by royalty to review the Fleet in 1953 and for Prince Charles's and Princess Anne's first trip on an electric train in 1954. Brighton Belle service withdrawn in 1972. Preserved as a garden house in Suffolk. Acquired in 1985 and joined the British Pullman train in 1990. Decoration: marquetry antelope leaping between palm trees. Zena First class parlour car, 24 seats, built 1928 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd. Bournemouth Belle 1929–46. Queen of Scots and Yorkshire Pullman 1946–55. Golden Arrow 1955–60. Queen of Scots 1960–61. Tees–Tyne Pullman 1961–65. Used in film Agatha about Agatha Christie, 1976. Acquired from T Robinson 1979. Decoration: Art Deco marquetry. A further seven unrestored carriages are stored for the train: four First (Phyllis, Agatha, Mona and Ruth) and three former Brighton Belle 5BEL Third carriages (No. 86, 92 and 93). An eighth vehicle, Car 83 is also owned by the company, but runs as Mary on the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway. The train is completed by some luggage vans - particularly Mark 1's - used for staff and storage. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 30 minutes ago, DavidB-AU said: There are currently eleven Pullman carriages, which are restored and operational. Audrey First class kitchen car, 20 seats, built 1932 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd. for the Brighton Belle. Damaged 1940 by air raid at Victoria station, repaired and rejoined Brighton Belle in 1947. Carried the Queen, the Queen Mother and the Duke of Edinburgh to review the Fleet in 1953. Transported the Queen on her visit to the University of Sussex, 1964. Acquired from DS Lowther 1980. This is the coach that George Cole and Dennis waterman travelled in whilst filming 'Minder on the orient express' in 1985 . Decoration: marquetry landscape panels and Art Deco strip lights. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e490fbbbf Cygnus First class parlour car, 26 seats, construction commenced 1938 but completion deferred until 1951 due to war. Builders were Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon Co. Used in the special Festival of Britain rake in 1951; reserved for use by royalty and visiting heads of state; made last journey of Golden Arrow 1972. Acquired from North Yorkshire Moors Railway, 1977. Decoration: Australian walnut panels, mirrors and old prints. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e490fc72d Gwen First class kitchen car, 20 seats, built 1932 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd for the Brighton Belle. In 1948 was used, with sister car Mona, to convey Queen Elizabeth (later the Queen Mother) to Brighton. Brighton Belle service withdrawn in 1972. Preserved as a restaurant at The Horseless Carriage, Chingford, Essex, and later at the Colne Valley Railway, Castle Hedingham, Essex. Acquired by VSOE in 1988 and joined British Pullman Train in 1999. Decoration: Pearwood shell motif on English walnut. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e18d2aaaa Ibis First class kitchen car, 20 seats, built 1925 by Birmingham Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. Sold to La Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits et des Grands Express Européen for service in Italy. Purchased by the Pullman Car Company Ltd. in 1928 and returned to Britain for Golden Arrow service. Entered Cunard boat train service between Victoria and Southampton, 1952. Retired 1968. Acquired from the Birmingham Railway Museum, 1981. Decoration: Greek dancing girls marquetry. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e214722de Ione First class kitchen car, 20 seats, built 1928 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd. for the Queen of Scots Pullman. Ocean Liner services to Plymouth or Southampton and Bournemouth Belle 1929–39. Queen of Scots 1948–54 and 1960–64. Golden Arrow, Yorkshire and South Wales Pullman 1954–60. On the high speed Talisman route (880 miles (1,416 km) per day) 1964–68. Retired 1968. Acquired from the Birmingham Railway Museum, 1981. Decoration: burr wood panels and Victorian frieze. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e490fe2a5 Lucille First class parlour car, 24 seats, built 1928 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd for the Queen of Scots Pullman of the London and North Eastern Railway. Transferred to Southern Region in 1963 and ran in Bournemouth Belle 1963–67. Preserved by Mr E Lewis-Evans at the South Eastern Steam Centre, Ashford 1968–84. Acquired in 1985. Decoration: Grecian urn design on green dyed holly wood. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e34f6ca2d Minerva First class parlour car, 26 seats, built 1927 by Midland Railway Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd. Devon Belle 1947–51. Used in the special Festival of Britain rake 1951. Golden Arrow 1951–61. Acquired from Lytham Creek Railway Museum 1981. Decoration: Edwardian-type marquetry. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e39ad5534 Perseus First class parlour car, 26 seats, construction commenced 1938 but completion deferred until 1951 due to war. Builders were Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon Co. Used in the special Festival of Britain rake State; used in Winston Churchill's funeral train 1965; made last journey of Golden Arrow 1972. Acquired from North Yorkshire Moors Railway, 1977. Decoration: ash panels and old prints. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e490ff218 Phoenix First class parlour car, 26 seats, built 1927 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd, named Rainbow. Burned Micheldever, England 1936. Rebuilt 1952 by Preston Park Works, Brighton, and appropriately renamed Phoenix. Favourite carriage of the Queen Mother: used by General de Gaulle and visiting heads of state; made last journey of Golden Arrow 1972. Became stationary restaurant in Lyon, France 1973. Acquired 1980. Decoration: oval frames of marquetry flowers on American cherrywood. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e2b27049f Vera First class kitchen car, 20 seats, built 1932 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd for the Brighton Belle. Always paired with Audrey as a two-car unit. Directly hit in an air raid at Victoria Station in 1940. Roof extensively repaired, rejoined Brighton Belle in 1947. Used by royalty to review the Fleet in 1953 and for Prince Charles's and Princess Anne's first trip on an electric train in 1954. Brighton Belle service withdrawn in 1972. Preserved as a garden house in Suffolk. Acquired in 1985 and joined the British Pullman train in 1990. Decoration: marquetry antelope leaping between palm trees. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e490ffaef Zena First class parlour car, 24 seats, built 1928 by Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon Co. Ltd. Bournemouth Belle 1929–46. Queen of Scots and Yorkshire Pullman 1946–55. Golden Arrow 1955–60. Queen of Scots 1960–61. Tees–Tyne Pullman 1961–65. Used in film Agatha about Agatha Christie, 1976. Acquired from T Robinson 1979. Decoration: Art Deco marquetry. https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/pullman/e354ef977 A further seven unrestored carriages are stored for the train: four First (Phyllis, Agatha, Mona and Ruth) and three former Brighton Belle 5BEL Third carriages (No. 86, 92 and 93). An eighth vehicle, Car 83 is also owned by the company, but runs as Mary on the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway. The train is completed by some luggage vans - particularly Mark 1's - used for staff and storage. I ve added some links to photos of each - there are more in the collection of each coach. Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted December 4, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) K-Type 1st parlour Minerva 1st kitchen Ibis 1st parlour Phoenix All Steel K-Type 1st parlour Zena 1st parlour Lucille 1st kitchen Ione U-Type 1st parlour Perseus 1st parlour Cygnus Ex-Brighton Belle coaches 1st kitchen Gwen 1st kitchen Vera 1st kitchen Audrey Edited December 4, 2019 by Hilux5972 Correction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 13 hours ago, BernardTPM said: They're a mix of early K type, 1928 (all steel) K type, ex-Brighton Belle and 1951 Golden Arrow Pullmans, though most have been rebuilt in some way; those that had wooden frames originally are now metal framed, for example. I think it's fair to say that ALL have been significantly rebuilt : internally modified to squeeze aircon into the ceilings, structurally frames rebuilt for current end-loading regs and all on Gresley or B4 ( B5 ? ) bogies. ( Original Pullman bogies are endangered species - especially the 'electric' ones.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul80 Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 Thanks guys First class information as always Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul80 Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 Another Pullman related question I have a rake of 8 Graham Farish Mk1 Pullmans, what would be an appropriate loco to haul them around 1. Obvious first choice a Class 73 in Pullman Evening Argus colours, would they be using this to pull their Mk1 stock or had that started to be faded out by the 80's when the 73 arrived in Pullman colours 2. I have a few Steam Passenger locos, should any of these be used with the Mk1's. STD 5mt, Merchant Navy Class and some Duchess's, would one of those find themselves pulling the Mk1's. Sorry for all the questions I did search but lost lost in the flood of information. Thanks Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 I don't suppose any 73 ever buffered up to a Mk 1 Pullman under British Railways ownership .... the Mk 1 Cars were only ever used on East Coast services hauled by Deltics or class 40s and, in the absence of any Brake vehicles they were always topped an' tailed with 'K' type Pullmans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Wickham Green said: I think it's fair to say that ALL have been significantly rebuilt : internally modified to squeeze aircon into the ceilings, structurally frames rebuilt for current end-loading regs and all on Gresley or B4 ( B5 ? ) bogies. ( Original Pullman bogies are endangered species - especially the 'electric' ones.) Agreed, and more than shows externally. If you start looking at the details there's probably none that look fully 'authentic'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) A few Mk.1 Pullmans were used on the Western Region Blue Pullman stand-by rake (colloquially named the 'Wells Fargo'), but only a few 2nd Class ones mixed in with the tradtional style Pullmans. I've definitely seen pictures of them behind a green Brush Type 4 (Cl.47), but it's likely that set would be Western (Cl.52) hauled too on occasions. Edited December 4, 2019 by BernardTPM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul80 Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 Thanks guys So I will have to add a Deltic to make use of my Mk1's Out of curiosity what was reason for the Class 73 in Pullman Evening Argus Colours if it was not used to pull Pullman Coaches? Thanks again for all the excellent info Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 (edited) That was for use (though not exclusively) on the Venice Simplon Orient Express, all pre-Mk.1 Pullmans. Edited December 5, 2019 by BernardTPM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 9 hours ago, Wickham Green said: I don't suppose any 73 ever buffered up to a Mk 1 Pullman under British Railways ownership .... the Mk 1 Cars were only ever used on East Coast services hauled by Deltics or class 40s and, in the absence of any Brake vehicles they were always topped an' tailed with 'K' type Pullmans. Why not Class 47s - the earliest of these were on KX services, and I think my memory of DP2 at KX is at the head of a pullman rake. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 There are plenty of photos of 47s on the Yorkshire Pullman and Hull Pullman. Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul80 Posted December 5, 2019 Author Share Posted December 5, 2019 Been Googling photos the 73 in Pullman Colours Does seem very wrong to see a Pullman pulling freight but there are quite a few. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbox321 Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 Just been looking at a retailers photos of the train pack, and I think they have missed the overhead live wires warning off the coaches? (I know its easy enough to rectify), and I suppose not of the other (older) releases have had them, but for a modern train....... Regards, C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted December 28, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 28, 2019 (edited) On 04/12/2019 at 18:07, Paul80 said: Thanks guys So I will have to add a Deltic to make use of my Mk1's Out of curiosity what was reason for the Class 73 in Pullman Evening Argus Colours if it was not used to pull Pullman Coaches? Thanks again for all the excellent info Paul it was painted to match the pullmans listed above. Though as mentioned it could be used on other workings. 73101 was also renamed “The Royal Alex”. 73101 wasnt exclusive to the VSOE, indeed any 73 will do... 73101 still exists, at Eastleigh, in Pullman colours, looks a bit rough after 18 years stored. Shame it would make a nice tail gunner for the Brighton Belle if it is required off the juice. Quote 2. I have a few Steam Passenger locos, should any of these be used with the Mk1's STD 5mt, Merchant Navy Class and some Duchess's, would one of those find themselves pulling the Mk1's. yes to all, but only in Preservation. Mk1 Pullmans... not much pre-1968 steam was on its uppers on the ECML.. Pullmans went 40/47/55 early on, But A1,A2,A3 & A4, in a very early copy of steam world theres a nice picture of a B1 pulling Grey/Blue pullmans from Bradford in 1967. Dont forget Pullmans werent dedicated.. you can mix/match types, i deed there was no mk1 Pullman brake..the 1967 image had a Blue/Grey BG. Since 1971 however.. SLOA bought a set of pullmans and used them extensively on the mainline in the 1980’s... so most preserved stuff with a Mainline ticket will have had ago.. Halls, Castles, King, 850/777/34027/92/35028, LMS including 1000,5690, 5593, 5305/5407/6201/46203/46229 LNER including 1306/4472/4771/4498/60009/532 and BR inc 70000/71000/92220 and more... even a no heat rail-freight class 47 47337.. The mk1 pullmans are still extensively used today on railtours for WCRC and Tyseley, in Maroon or Brown/Cream but not as an exclusive rake, mixed with mk1/mk2s and literally anything goes... Edited December 28, 2019 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2020 On 28/12/2019 at 16:27, adb968008 said: 73101 still exists, at Eastleigh, in Pullman colours, looks a bit rough after 18 years stored. Shame it would make a nice tail gunner for the Brighton Belle if it is required off the juice. Do you have a date on that photo? Would be quite interested to know when the VSOE was running with that EWS BG on the end... I have a half finished attempt at modelling the VSOE which stalled when it came to modifying the 1951 stock Thinking this might be the year to get on and finish it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, The Fatadder said: Do you have a date on that photo? Would be quite interested to know when the VSOE was running with that EWS BG on the end... I have a half finished attempt at modelling the VSOE which stalled when it came to modifying the 1951 stock Thinking this might be the year to get on and finish it... May 31st 2003, 34067 was on the other end. Lots of Connex stuff and slamdoor stock running that day too. Edited January 1, 2020 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 1, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) A couple more here. ive got EWS 47’s too, inc a spotless 47787, and a ragged RES class 47, these are October 2003. Edited January 1, 2020 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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