Speeding ticket heads up

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Maybe the police should be using equipment with a random 10% plus 3 mph leeway with which to check speeding motorists?

 

Mike.

 

Why?

 

THE LAW IS VERY CLEAR a 70mph limit MEANS 70MPH! THERE IS NO TOLERANCE SPECIFIED BY THE LAW as applied by the judicial system.

 

If the legislation quoted a tolerance then the police would be duty bound to enforce it - but it doesn't so they don't have to.

 

Interestingly, a consequence of this means that as with vehicle spedos, police speed measuring equipment must also never over estimate speed - otherwise you would be trying to prosecute people for doing 69mph.

 

In other words if the police speed gun or fixed camera has a +/-5% tolerance, then then it must only be triggered by vehicles travelling at 71.5mph - if it didn't there is a risk it would be activated by someone going at 68.5mph which is not an offence.

Edited November 17, 2019 by phil-b259

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

See what I said earlier about the law!

 

Motor manufacturers / retailers WILL NOT sell cars which have the ability to incriminate users because of the legal ramifications - ALL spedos will under read to a grater or lesser extent.

 

Consequently there is NO NEED for the police to prove what your spedo is saying - if its its under reading then the car shouldn't be used on public roads and you are liable for having an unroadworthy vehicle.

 

In the situation where you believe a spedo to be faulty and thus causing you to receive a speeding fine then you could of course commission independent tests - which may prove an actual defect with the spedo, in which case the motor vehicle seller / manufacturer would face prosecution for supplying an unroadworthy vehicle. If however the report comes back showing the spedo meets the requirements of UK law then you will have wasted money for and ended up with a more significant penalty from the court system.

You are contradicting yourself.

 

Also you will not succeed in prosecution a manufacturer unless the vehicle is still within it's warranty period and is in exactly the same condition as it left the factory, which is unlikely.

Such things as new tyres can affect the effective diameter of the wheel and cause changes to speed accuracy, e.g. changing to a higher aspect ratio or increasing the width.

[melmerby]

4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

 

In other words if the police speed gun or fixed camera has a +/-5% tolerance, then then it must only be triggered by vehicles travelling at 71.5mph - if it didn't there is a risk it would be activated by someone going at 68.5mph which is not an offence.

5% of 70mph is +/- 3.5mph.

If someone has been done for 71mph and a camera is 5% accurate you must be doing at least 74.5mph

Edited November 17, 2019 by melmerby

[tigerburnie]

I have had a full licence for and driven motor-bikes-cars and lorries and on occasion all 3 in the same day and felt that the speedos did seem to vary in accuracy against one of those digital signs at the side of the road(which is probably not that accurate I know). I have over the years picked up a few tickets and endorsements or points and to be honest can hardly complain, as my brother(a retired plod himself) has said, I have been lucky considering some of the stunts I have pulled off in the days of quieter roads.

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Which makes it somewhat ironic that some more accurate alternatives to car speedometers have no legal standing for indicating speed. 

 

The problem is those 'alternatives' may be inaccurate and over estimate your speed.

 

Since the LAW does not specify any tolerances, in legal terms travelling at 71mph on a motorway IS AN OFFENCE.

 

spedos are specifically designed to PREVENT a motorists speeding due to manufacturing tolerances where as Sat-Navs, etc are not.

 

If Sat-Navs were required to operate in the same way as spedos do then you would find they would no longer be 'accurate' - they would have to over read too!

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

5% of 70mph is +/- 3.5mph.

If someone has been done for 71mph and a camera is 5% accurate you must be doing at least 74.5mph

 

Yup - I'm not great at maths.

 

Principle is still valid though.

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

I have had a full licence for and driven motor-bikes-cars and lorries and on occasion all 3 in the same day and felt that the speedos did seem to vary in accuracy against one of those digital signs at the side of the road(which is probably not that accurate I know). I have over the years picked up a few tickets and endorsements or points and to be honest can hardly complain, as my brother(a retired plod himself) has said, I have been lucky considering some of the stunts I have pulled off in the days of quieter roads.

I regularly go past a couple of these and they are way out also varying day by day.

[melmerby]

The most accurate speed reading devices I have seen are those that follow the road surface optically.

i.e. a camera faces the tarmac or whatever,  vertically and a computer can calculate the speed as the image traverses the screen.

They don't seemed to be affected by road surface, weather, temperature etc. and can be extremely accurate.

[phil-b259]

6 minutes ago, melmerby said:

You are contradicting yourself.

 

Also you will not succeed in prosecution a manufacturer unless the vehicle is still within it's warranty period and is in exactly the same condition as it left the factory, which is unlikely.

Such things as new tyres can affect the effective diameter of the wheel and cause changes to speed accuracy, e.g. changing to a higher aspect ratio or increasing the width.

 

I don't think so

 

If your vehicle has a spedo that is defective then you shouldn't be using it on public roads - and can thus be prosecuted for driving an 'unroadworthy vehicle'

 

However, because the average motorist does not have the ability to check the accuracy of the spedo themselves (unlike tyre depth) and also the accuracy of the spedo is not checked in MOT tests - it is theoretically possible that there may be a defect with the spedo which the motorist is unaware of.

 

If independent testing proves this to be so then (i) the motorist will have a claim against the organisation / person who sold them the vehicle, (ii) the crown would have a case against said person / organisation for selling an unroadworthy vehicle and (iii) the motorist would have a strong defence that they had been the victim of entrapment by others.

 

Given the rules covering the construction of motor vehicles for use on public roads in the UK however, its unlikely that independent testing will prove the spedo to be faulty.

[jjb1970]

People buying VW cars assumed their engines met emissions standards. That ended well. 

[Nick C]

44 minutes ago, Kingzance said:

Seeing the plethora of vehicles - both private and commercial - registered elsewhere in the EU on UK roads, I wonder how penalties for infringements are exacted upon them?

 

Bilateral agreements - the DVLA sends the details to it's counterpart in the other country, they send back the details for the ticket. I've known a couple of people who have received tickets for speeding in France because they thought the French authorities had no way of finding them on British plates...

 

Whether that will survive Brexit I don't know...

[phil-b259]

10 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

People buying VW cars assumed their engines met emissions standards. That ended well. 

 

There is nothing stopping anyone commissioning spedo test if it turns out that the majority of speeding tickets are being issued to VW cars is there?

 

Although I do believe that the VOSA do make random checks on newly build cars to ensure the construction regs are being applied.

 

 

[phil-b259]

6 minutes ago, Nick C said:

 

Bilateral agreements - the DVLA sends the details to it's counterpart in the other country, they send back the details for the ticket.

 

The bigger problem is having obtained the offenders details, the UK then commissions a private debt recovery company to collect the fines - and as this will be treated as a civil matter in most legal systems, getting payment via foreign court systems is hard work. Were the matter a criminal one - and being handled by statutory UK authority like the Police*, then recovery of demits would be a lot easier.

 

* In lots of EU countries, administration of vehicle registrations is done either on a regional basis and /or their equivalent of the DVLA is treated as part of the Police service - and requested by private companies for details are not permitted. Given the way the UK Government likes to privatise / outsource / set up quasi private sector agencies in the name of 'efficiency' and 'taking advantage of private sector expertise', obtaining driver details from such EU countries can be hard work!

 

[Fat Controller]

6 minutes ago, Nick C said:

 

Bilateral agreements - the DVLA sends the details to it's counterpart in the other country, they send back the details for the ticket. I've known a couple of people who have received tickets for speeding in France because they thought the French authorities had no way of finding them on British plates...

 

Whether that will survive Brexit I don't know...

French police can stop you for speeding, then take you to a cash machine to withdraw enough cash to pay the ticket, if you don't have the 'liquide' on you.. 

The automated radar takes several months to come through, as I found to my cost, when I didn't slow down enough when taking a particular autoroute junction.

Brexit shouldn't have any effect on following offenders through, if it's on a bilateral basis.

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, Paul80 said:

Apparently the 10% error allowed is no longer applied as it was introduce to cover older cars who's Speedos were cable operated and could be inaccurate in either direction, now all Speedos are electronic and are not allowed to under report your speed so if it's says 70 you are doing 70 or just under.

 

Some of you seem to have got the wrong end of my post, I was not complaining I got a ticket for going 1mph over the limit, I was just giving a heads up some areas are clamping down. 

 

Obviously some snowflakes don't need advice.

When did they modify my Peugeot 106, 205 and Ford Fiesta, they were all fitted with cable speedos last time I looked?

 

What measures have been taken to alleviate the variation in speedo accuracy as the tyres wear, a worn tyre can have as much as 4% smaller circumference as a new tyre of the same size!

Edited November 17, 2019 by royaloak
added 'speedo' to last paragraph so the pedants dont bite.

[jjb1970]

Are the Police going to have a crackdown on vehicles bullying the car in front to go faster in 50 zones during road works? One of my biggest pet hates is doing 50 and then having a truck or a bus millimetres behind me flashing lights etc. to try and force me to go faster. Whenever I point out the limit is 50and my speedo says 50 I usually get chapter and verse on why speedometers read high and so it is OK for people to have road rage towards people observing the speed limit according to the car instrumentation. I won't be holding my breath. 

[Reorte]

18 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

Are the Police going to have a crackdown on vehicles bullying the car in front to go faster in 50 zones during road works? One of my biggest pet hates is doing 50 and then having a truck or a bus millimetres behind me flashing lights etc. to try and force me to go faster. Whenever I point out the limit is 50and my speedo says 50 I usually get chapter and verse on why speedometers read high and so it is OK for people to have road rage towards people observing the speed limit according to the car instrumentation. I won't be holding my breath. 

 

Far more dangerous than going 1 mph over the limit, but much harder to automatically detect and prove.

 

Zealous, rigid enforcement of rules like speed limits just brings the laws, and the police, into contempt in the eyes of many and thus makes doing their jobs harder.

[Zero Gravitas]

13 hours ago, Paul80 said:

Hi all

 

Just a heads up especially for all you southerners attending the  Warly show at the NEC this year.

 

I have just attended a naughty boy course after picking up a ticket on my way to TINGS this year for doing 71 in a 70 section on the M1

 

It turned out that of the 25 people on the course that day about 25% had tickets issued By Northampton police for doing 1 mph over the limit on the M1.

 

The instructors also confirmed that they have seen a huge rise in the number of participants ticketed for being just 1mph over the limit in many areas

 

So if going up the M1 for the NEC watch out along the Notinghamshire section and if others are following the trend watchout, especially on any of the Smart motorways which can catch you out with their constant speed changes.

 

Like I said just a heads up.

 

Paul

 

This is very interesting. Please could you post (appropriately redacted, obviously) images of the paperwork you received from the police about this prosecution?

[Kingzance]

There are four digital speed displays going into and heading out of my nearby town. If I travel at an indicated 28mph approaching one, it indicates that I am doing 27mph, another shows 28mph, a third 29mph and the last 30mph. Of course at the moment, none of these generate a ticket but I suspect that is only a matter of time as The State endlessly expands its need for our money! As to elements of variability, those indications were on the same day. I have 5.5mm of tread depth on all tyres and these are the same model as was originally fitted and I maintain their pressures at the recommended levels.

[PaulRhB]

A police officer pointed out to someone I know it’s a speed limit or maximum speed not a target speed

 

Most gridlock on motorways I’ve seen is caused by middle lane hoggers restricting the ability to overtake rather than using the left lane or not paying attention and stabbing the brakes causing a wave of reaction back down the road. 

Looking ahead and lifting off to control speed seems to be a mystery to a minority. 

[Adam88]

I drive to work along a rural A road with 50/60 speed limits which passes through a number of villages with 30 or 40 limits.  Traffic flow is always pretty good and most people seem to drive within the limits.   It is not unusual for the police to set up mobile speed cameras and when this is the case drivers coming the opposite way sometimes flash their headlights - I don't personally and I believe it can lead to prosecution in its own right.

 

One morning though a number of vehicles were flashing their lights in a most urgent way - perhaps a speed camera or a bad smash?  No, just a duck and a string of ducklings waddling across the road in their own gentle way.

[melmerby]

22 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Looking ahead and lifting off to control speed seems to be a mystery to a minority majority.

There. I've corrected your error.

[PaulRhB]

For how much of every journey are we actually driving as well as we think we do?  

Everyone here has never driven after a bad nights sleep, row with family or bad news?

I’ve got a 2 ½ hr drive this afternoon for a funeral tomorrow, am I at my best? I’ll be aiming to give myself that little bit more room than usual now I’ve thought about that. 

 

It says a lot about the human brain that the 10% + 2 has become what most of us consider the actual limit to be rather than those signs they’ve spent an awful lot of our money on  

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 ALL spedos will under read to a grater or lesser extent.

 

if its its under reading then the car shouldn't be used on public roads and you are liable for having an unroadworthy vehicle.

 

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

You are contradicting yourself.

 

 

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I don't think so

 

Surely you mean over read?

 

No speedo should be reading under and it is unlikely that it is unless the vehicle is not to original specification.

 

However, many years ago I did have a mechanical one that did though not, I assume, when the car was new.

I started to feel that every one was driving under the speed limit until one day the needle stopped moving completely and just stuck at one speed.

The mechanism had seized up.

Speedos used to come with two main bits: a rotating magnet driven from the cable and an aluminium disc connect to the pointer which acted against a hair spring.

It was the second bit that had seized.

I also had one where the input seized up snapping the cable and on a Mondeo the drive gear in the gearbox stripped leaving me with no reading and a bamboozled engine manement unit.

Edited November 17, 2019 by melmerby

[Fat Controller]

3 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

For how much of every journey are we actually driving as well as we think we do?  

Everyone here has never driven after a bad nights sleep, row with family or bad news?

I’ve got a 2 ½ hr drive this afternoon for a funeral tomorrow, am I at my best? I’ll be aiming to give myself that little bit more room than usual now I’ve thought about that. 

 

It says a lot about the human brain that the 10% + 2 has become what most of us consider the actual limit to be rather than those signs they’ve spent an awful lot of our money on  

A while back, an official body in France decided to look at the role of 'microsleeps' with drivers. Dash-cameras were focussed on drivers' faces, and they set off via the Autoroute du Soleil to the South. When the tapes were pulled from the cameras, it was found that 'microsleeps' of between 5 and 15 seconds were normal, whilst one driver slept for a full five minutes! All this was at peak time on one of France's most heavily-trafficed roads.