William's Workbench - LBSCR, LC&DR & SER in 4mm, and Gauge 1

[hayfield]

8 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

First pass at the Billinton 8 Compt. All Third (D67) - I have added accumulators and a westinghouse brake reservoir under the solebar, and a single queen post. I have also set up the compartments.

 

This one is going to be painted in the 1911 all-over Umber scheme. Unfortunately I have neither the Vallejo German Camo Black Brown paint, nor the 8' bogies required to take this any further yet....

 

 

This kit was one part-built in the box-o-Ratio and came with the wrong roof - but the roofs of the electrically lit D67's were quite plain: just a single cable conduit down the middle and ventilators over the end (smoking) compartments - so easy to fill the holes and fit my own.

 

I'm trying to use Vallejo Plastic Putty but I'm having no end of trouble with it - it shrinks, it wicks away from holes, and it takes hours to dry to a sandable finish. I guess I just need more patience.

 

I find using Green and White Squadron filler, which I thin with Humbrol Liquid Poly into a runny slurry. I then leave it for 24 hours before sanding. It not only fills the finest holes but stays put. Which is not the case if left neat and sanded after an hour or so

[Lacathedrale]

Thanks matey, i'll give that a go next.

 

For now, here's a work in progress of the Billinton 4w First D95 alongside the Billinton 48' Bogie Third D67:

 

 

For the roofs I have decided to use a very light grey mixed with the pale sand to make sure there is some colour differentiation between the roof tones (white -> grey) and the panelling (off-white -> cream). This D67 is going to be in 1911 condition with electric lighting (hence the conduit) and all-over umber so I have made the roof quite a bit lighter, although that doesn't really show here.

 

Other than paint, varnish and transfers there are a few other bits and bobs to do before these are really complete:

The 4w needs the vacuum brake cylinder (behind the gas tank in the above photo) replaced with a westinghouse cylinder. The Bogie needs bogies (!), and both need both wheels and Westinghouse brake pipes fitting.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I find using Green and White Squadron filler, which I thin with Humbrol Liquid Poly into a runny slurry.

Is there any reason for using that particular brand of liquid poly?

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

Is there any reason for using that particular brand of liquid poly?

 

Simply because it works and I have not bothered to try Butanone. Also its cheap and readily available, but also it seems to complement the differing Squadron colours.

 

The trick is to let it dry completely.

 

The other good putty for filling gaps in metal kits is Milliput. Again you can work it for a while (so there is less cleaning up) but again wait 24 hours for it to set hard 

[Lacathedrale]

Should the umber colour be lighter (colour scaled) and warmer as on the 4w, or darker and colder as on the bogie? I'm torn!

 

[Regularity]

How about darker but warmer?

[t-b-g]

I like the darker colour on the bogie carriage but I am not a fan of dead flat finishes on carriages.

 

I would like to see that with a coat or two of "Klear" or similar as I think it will really give the colour a lift.

[Lacathedrale]

Oh I definitely wouldn't leave it as matt as that @t-b-g I'm not sure what's going on but my recent attempts at using klear have gone a bit awry - they're going with a very satin finish. I don't mind giving it a coat of gloss but I am a little worried! 

 

@Regularity I could potentially mix them? or add some red leather/terracotta into the umber.

[Nick C]

How does the darker colour look with the cream panels added?

 

IMHO 4mm coaches look best with a slight sheen - not glossy. Gloss doesn't scale...

[Lacathedrale]

Here are the two coaches with a some varnish more towards gloss than matt:

 

 

I think the umber has gotten warmer, and the brown on the 4w is leaning towards caramel...

[Lacathedrale]

It seems the Bachmann Umber is a lot closer to Vallejo German Camo Black-Brown than the SR Freight Brown, but needs to be a little lighter:

 

 

 

Certainly if I had to pick one lineup over the other I'd pick the former even if it was a little too dark, but it should be fine to add a little burnt sienna/etc. to the mix to brighten it up, I'd have thought.

[Nick C]

Might be worth playing with different colour primers as well? I'd try painting a bit of spare plasticard in stripes of grey, cream and red primer and seeing how it looks on each.

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

the brown on the 4w is leaning towards caramel

[t-b-g]

The varnish has certainly transformed the finishes.

 

It is also quite surprising to observe just how much of a difference lining makes too. 

[Regularity]

On 27/07/2022 at 15:49, Lacathedrale said:

Should the umber colour be lighter (colour scaled) and warmer as on the 4w, or darker and colder as on the bogie? I'm torn!

 

 

On 27/07/2022 at 18:13, Regularity said:

How about darker but warmer?

 

On 27/07/2022 at 18:15, t-b-g said:

I like the darker colour on the bogie carriage but I am not a fan of dead flat finishes on carriages.

 

I would like to see that with a coat or two of "Klear" or similar as I think it will really give the colour a lift.

 

3 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Here are the two coaches with a some varnish more towards gloss than matt:

 

 

I think the umber has gotten warmer, and the brown on the 4w is leaning towards caramel...

 

3 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

It seems the Bachmann Umber is a lot closer to Vallejo German Camo Black-Brown than the SR Freight Brown, but needs to be a little lighter:

 

 

Certainly if I had to pick one lineup over the other I'd pick the former even if it was a little too dark, but it should be fine to add a little burnt sienna/etc. to the mix to brighten it up, I'd have thought.

Mixing the two does seem to be worth trying…

[Lacathedrale]

I did a huge number of tests and came up with this, 6:1 Vallejo Chocolate Brown to Black:

 

 

As a comparison, the Vallejo German Camo Black-Brown bogie coach:

 

 

@t-b-g don't think I didn't hear your subtle dig about lining ;) I'll sort out a mapping pen and experiment on this coach.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Lacathedrale

[burgundy]

If you are in the mood to experiment, try mixing 6:1 chocolate brown to white and then dry brush that across the sides to bring out the highlights.

You might also want to think about varying the degrees of matt/gloss across the vehicle side. I use a Microscale flat varnish, diluted and mixed with a little undergunge colour, airbrushed upwards onto the lower parts of the vehicle.

Best wishes

Eric       

[Lacathedrale]

I'm definitely going to be airbrushing matt and weathering at the bottom of the carriage, but I need to keep the whole thing glossy for the time being so that I can apply @ianmaccormac's wonderful Billinton transfers.

 

I have the 4w D95 mostly complete other than transfers and weathering. It has Gibson buffers, 51L Westinghouse pipes, Smiths screw link couplers, and Markits (?) mansell wheels. I'm not 100% happy with it, it's had one too many coats of paint and touching up the brown while the off-white panels were already filled was difficult so I'll need to over again with the off-white to tidy it up.

 

 

I've also tried out the easi-liner again and come up with the same problem - by hook or by crook the smallest line I can get is probably 0.3mm which doesn't sound like much, but is actually pretty huge when compared to the size the lining is meant to be:

 

Time to try the dip pen a-la @t-b-g ! 

[Lacathedrale]

I can't help but feel (despite my middling satisfaction) that the above enlargements are a little cruel, they're at least 3x life size on my screen at least. I will not be taking anything further than the Billinton 4w until I have the transfers and I have decided what to do about the lining. I think that the unrelieved umber NEEDS lining, so it's a case of 'how' rather than 'if'.

 

Test carriage (still in Sienna) aside, I don't think any of the carriages look egregiously bad at 'normal viewing distance' :

 

Maybe this is another case of the 80/20 rule, or not letting Perfection be the enemy of Good?

[Lacathedrale]

@t-b-g to confirm, you're using ink rather than paint in your lining?  I've used a flesh colour which comes out as a warm gold when it comes to paint, but you're using white and yellow ink, if I remember correctly?

[t-b-g]

29 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

@t-b-g to confirm, you're using ink rather than paint in your lining?  I've used a flesh colour which comes out as a warm gold when it comes to paint, but you're using white and yellow ink, if I remember correctly?

 

I have used all sorts of different things for lining carriages over the years. Ink, enamel paint and acrylic paint have all put in appearances.

 

I have used both Rotring and Winsor & Newton white ink with yellow ink added, which makes a good "fake gold" colour and also suits the mapping pen nicely. Acrylic paint works well and is available as a gold colour but tends to dry too quickly and the pen needs frequent cleaning.

 

Enamels work well too but you need to get the consistency just right so it flows without blobbing.

 

So overall I find the ink the easiest as it is usually the right consistency to start with. The only thing you have to be careful with is that it can "blob" on a high gloss finish, so I usually paint with a matt finish, then line, then varnish. 

[Lacathedrale]

Lining

Dip pen nib duly ordered. My easi-liner handle looks to be compatible and I have some acrylic retarder which should help with gumming up.

 

Brakes

 

I was double checking the placement of Westinghouse brake hoses in the picture above, and though I thought I was completely finished with the construction work on the D95, I realise I need to add the actual brakes! Luckily I have them to-hand and I don't think I'm going to be disassembling the carriage again so I'll put them on shortly. I refuse to buy Westinghouse Brake castings at this point, it seems crazy to spend £1.50 for a whitemetal casting of a cylinder! 

 

54' Marsh Carriages

Speaking of having things to-hand: a shoebox of Tri-ang Clerestories arrived over the weekend, from which I should be able to cobble together three Marsh bogie carriages (an all third, a brake second luggage, and a tri-composite). Though they will need a bit more work than those of a Ratio origin, they should be quite cheap as it's 90% styrene sheet and I can re-use the existing bogies suitably bushed rather than building new ones.

 

Really, I could do with a brake third also, but I think that can come in due course - maybe one with some LBSCR-style end duckets at last?

 

 

 

 

[Regularity]

12 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

I refuse to buy Westinghouse Brake castings at this point, it seems crazy to spend £1.50 for a whitemetal casting of a cylinder! 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Regularity
Computer playing up: you can hardly see it behind the solebars, anyway.

[Nick Holliday]

22 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

54' Marsh Carriages

Speaking of having things to-hand: a shoebox of Tri-ang Clerestories arrived over the weekend, from which I should be able to cobble together three Marsh bogie carriages (an all third, a brake second luggage, and a tri-composite). Though they will need a bit more work than those of a Ratio origin, they should be quite cheap as it's 90% styrene sheet and I can re-use the existing bogies suitably bushed rather than building new ones.

 

Really, I could do with a brake third also, but I think that can come in due course - maybe one with some LBSCR-style end duckets at last?

 

I'm deeply envious that you have acquired a bounty of Triang clerestories.  I also admire your prodigious output, as I am lucky to turn out a wagon a year!  However, I suggest you perhaps have a re-think of your proposals, if you are still pursuing the versions you outlined earlier.

 

54'  Carriages

@t-b-g  if I remember correctly Mr Denny had an article on converting the Tri-ang Clerestories to GCR coaches in RM and I seem to remember one of the changes was the pivoting arrangement to the bogie to reduce the ride height, as well as scale wheels? I'm studying Terry Gough's articles and they've required a bit of re-reading but I think I've distilled it down to the following (the ones I actually need are highlighted in green):

2 Tri-ang Brake 3rds can make:

6 Compt. Brake 3rd D139

5 Compt. Brake 3rd with Luggage D74

5 Compt Brake 2nd with Luggage D129

8 Compt. 3rd D140

2 Tri-ang Composites can make:

8 Compt. Tri-composite D151

The D74 is actually a much more common vehicle than the D129, but I already have an embarrassment of brake thirds and frequently bogie trains ran with 6w brake carriages - maybe it can come later.

 

48' Carriages

 

While I'm at it, I may as well note the Ratio MR coaches are a bit less fertile ground:

Ratio MR Suburban All First 7 Compt as D60 (converted Suburban to Mainline 7 compt. All First)

Ratio MR Suburban All 3rd 8 Compt. as D67

Ratio MR Suburban Brake 3rd 6 Compt. as D63 (add new end duckets)

I'll tackle the Tri-ang carriages first I think! 

 

One problem is that the Triang Composite is no such thing.  It is actually based on a full-second, so all the compartments are the same width, 6' 6", as compared with the thirds in the brake which are 5' 10". The D151 composite had compartments 5'9"/7'4½"/6'5"/7'4½"/7'4½"/6'2½"/6'2½"/6'2½". I'm not sure that the 7'4½" width is actually possible to derive from the moulding, and if it were, there would be an incredible amount of cutting and a lot of wastage to achieve it. The D139 and D74 are feasible, but the D129 is only possible by grafting 5 compartments from one of the seconds onto a brake section, as the compartments are 6'3¾". The D140 that you quote as being 8 compartments was a one-off, and also appears to have actually had 9 compartments.  The other types of nine compartment third were far more numerous , with  9 x 5'10½" compartments.

Although you are embarrassed by your brake thirds, it should be remembered that the majority of these coaches ended up as three-coach sets, with a composite of some type sandwiched between two brake thirds, but not a full third.

One composite that might be should easily created using half a second and half a brake third is D61/86.  This comprised 4 first class (!?) compartments of 6'6" and 4 third class ones, at 5'8½" and was an unusual length of 50'.

It is probably worth noting that the Ratio kits have almost the same compartment size, so they don't really offer a viable alternative to create some of the more unusual arrangements, being 5'10½" and 6'8½".  The D60 first and the D67 third could be produced from the Triang coaches, although a bit harder to achieve, and slightly under-length, and the 50' composite could be produced from Ratio kits as well.

It might be worth re-evaluating which source gives you the best result, especially if you have a good supply of the Triang models.  The Triang moulding is much closer to Brighton dimensions, but the solid design of the coach means that all cutting is much more awkward, the roof and end mouldings have to be disposed of, but the brake ends may offer greater scope for re-use, including the duckets, although much cutting and splicing might be required.  The Ratio sides have an incorrect deeper waist moulding which might show up badly against the Triang one, or any brass kits, although the impact could be reduced if they are presented in all-over umber, so that the white panels don't emphasise the difference, but the sides are separate and thus easier to cut and splice, and they may be available from Peco separately, saving buying whole kits to throw much away, the ends might be recyclable by straightening out the turn-under and the roof has potential.  On both the door grab rails need to be removed - I have found this quite easy on a Ratio side, but I've not attacked by Triang specimens yet.

 

[Lacathedrale]

Thanks Nick, your prodigious knowledge makes a fool of me. I will revisit this in earnest shortly. For the seven carriages in my possession, my outline plan is roughly as below: 

 

BT + BT = 9 Compt. All Third D162 (yielding two spare brake ends.)

BT + BT + Panels from one spare Brake End = 5 Compt. Brake Luggage 3rd D74 (yielding another spare brake end)

C + Spare Brake End = 5 Compt. Brake 2nd with Luggage D129

C + C = Tri-Composite D151

 

Given the apparent freedom in which D74s were allocated to even relatively short trains, clearly there was a good deal of luggage to manage, so a D129 would also be appropriate. I am desirous to include 2nd Class travel if only because it is so far behind us!

 

In other news, my dip pen nib arrived and I'm very pleased with it.  My method so far has been to mix Vallejo Retarder Medium with Vallejo Sunny Skintone in a palette and then brush it onto the nib. I draw the pen on the paper below and get going. Here's an in-progress shot of the Billinton D95:

 

 

Clearly I still need some practise but it's a good deal better than the easi-liner. Here's my first pass at the D67 Billinton Bogie Third where I was able to line both sides of this coach with one loading of the nib:

 

 

I've deliberately only lined the bottom half of each panel to try to give the effect that it's only on the sides of the moulding and naturally you wouldn't be able to see it from the railway viewpoint.

 

Like most things it's only going to get easier by doing it so this coach will get some tidying up with umber and I think I'm going to call it good. 

 

I think if I were using enamels or inks this line would be a good deal thinner, but I'm happy with my acrylics for now.