Welsh Speakers Out There?

[RedgateModels]

Before I make a right fool of myself (again!) is there anyone out there that can confirm or deny Google's translation of "Something Colliery" into Welsh as 

 

Rhywbeth Pwll Glo?

 

Clearly I'm not going to get a true translation of the Nottinghamshire slang "Summat" for something, so am looking for as close a welsh version as I can for my new layout

 

TIA

 

 

[wombatofludham]

Whilst "pwll glo" does indeed mean "coal mine" and "rhywbeth" means "something" you'd have the word order the other way round, but it doesn't look right to me (although I've learned Welsh as my second language).  Trouble is when there was a coal mining industry in Wales the NCB/British Coal never used Welsh language signs at their pit entrances so it's difficult to find a suitable reference.  However, I'm fairly sure the word for colliery is "Glofa", and if you wanted to use the word "summit" instead of the vernacular "summat", you'd end up with "Glofa y Copa" ("the summit colliery").  I can't imagine there would be a colliery named with an adverb like "rhywbeth".  Most Welsh coal mines were named after where they were located, or after people, or even the field that once stood there.

It's one of the traps it is easy to fall into when translating English into other languages as what we can say in English with a double meaning doesn't always translate.

[Steamport Southport]

I think it might be Glofa for coal mine.

 

Pwll Glo seems a bit literal as pool/pit coal.

 

 

https://www.thecrumlinnavigation.org/glofa.html

 

 

 

Jason

[RedgateModels]

17 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

 However, I'm fairly sure the word for colliery is "Glofa", and if you wanted to use the word "summit" instead of the vernacular "summat", you'd end up with "Glofa y Copa" ("the summit colliery").  I can't imagine there would be a colliery named with an adverb like "rhywbeth".  Most Welsh coal mines were named after where they were located, or after people, or even the field that once stood there.

 

I see where you are going with this, I understand. 

 

For a bit of background in case you didn't know - my first layout was called Summat Colliery as it was "something like a colliery" and a local pit to Mansfield was called "Summit Colliery" in Kirkby in Ashfield

 

Maybe your suggestion of Glofa y Copa is the closest I can reasonably get, hmmmmmmmm

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

'Tebygrwydd Pell'.

[Adam]

2 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Trouble is when there was a coal mining industry in Wales the NCB/British Coal never used Welsh language signs at their pit entrances so it's difficult to find a suitable reference.  However, I'm fairly sure the word for colliery is "Glofa", and if you wanted to use the word "summit" instead of the vernacular "summat", you'd end up with "Glofa y Copa" ("the summit colliery").  I can't imagine there would be a colliery named with an adverb like "rhywbeth".  Most Welsh coal mines were named after where they were located, or after people, or even the field that once stood there.

 

I can't claim a comprehensive survey, but 'never' is almost always a bit strong as this picture of Cynheidre in west Wales demonstrates:

 

Cynheidre 1 by sapper537, on Flickr

 

So Bwrdd Glo Cenedlaethol (Board Coal National), Adran De Cymru (Area South Wales), and our friend Glofa, followed by the place name. Note the English language sign on the other side of the road in characteristic NCB style.

 

Adam

Edited October 23, 2019 by Adam

[eastglosmog]

3 hours ago, Adam said:

 

I can't claim a comprehensive survey, but 'never' is almost always a bit strong as this picture of Cynheidre in west Wales demonstrates:

 

Cynheidre 1 by sapper537, on Flickr

 

So Bwrdd Glo Cenedlaethol (Board Coal National), Adran De Cymru (Area South Wales), and our friend Glofa, followed by the place name. Note the English language sign on the other side of the road in characteristic NCB style.

  

Adam

When did they start putting the names up in Welsh?  When I had dealings with them in the 70s and 80s, I don't recall any of them having anything other than xxxx Colliery, Mine, Pit or Level.

[Penlan]

I did a search (cont'l F) on the 1,669 pages on the CD with 'Gazetteer of the Coal Mines of South Wales & Monmouthshire from 1854'.
There wasn't one hit for Glofa.

Cynheidre - plenty of hits for that before and after nationalisation, but in spite of the sign posted by Adam, Glofa doesn't appear in the records (Neither does Summit or Summat).
Perhaps there's been some creative Welsh language back dating 

[Adam]

I’m not certain of the photo’s date, and that’s certainly not an official sign, but it’s probably - going on the rest of the collection - late ‘60s. Maybe early ‘70s. As ever in Wales, there’s a difference between what the Anglophone owners (and their market) called a thing and what the Welsh-speaking workers or community called a thing. Some of the differences are quite revealing (look up the Welsh name for Shirehall street in Caernarfon for good example).

 

Adam

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Penlan said:

I did a search (cont'l F) on the 1,669 pages on the CD with 'Gazetteer of the Coal Mines of South Wales & Monmouthshire from 1854'.
There wasn't one hit for Glofa.

Cynheidre - plenty of hits for that before and after nationalisation, but in spite of the sign posted by Adam, Glofa doesn't appear in the records (Neither does Summit or Summat).
Perhaps there's been some creative Welsh language back dating 

 

You are going back too far. Welsh would have been banned at that date.

 

 

 

Jason

[wombatofludham]

4 hours ago, Adam said:

 

I can't claim a comprehensive survey, but 'never' is almost always a bit strong as this picture of Cynheidre in west Wales demonstrates:

 

Cynheidre 1 by sapper537, on Flickr

 

So Bwrdd Glo Cenedlaethol (Board Coal National), Adran De Cymru (Area South Wales), and our friend Glofa, followed by the place name. Note the English language sign on the other side of the road in characteristic NCB style.

 

Adam

That is unusual.  It's style reminds me of the non-corporate style sign that marked the entrance to Lea Hall Colliery in Rugeley where my late father worked, so might date back before the dark blue and yellow "NCB" corporate image and have been fabricated locally which might explain the Welsh.

As for English and Welsh names not being the same, many streets in Dolgellau have completely different names in Welsh to English, for example the main square in English is "Eldon Square" but in Welsh is a more prosaic "Stryd Fawr" or Main Street, "Queens Square" is "Llys Owain" (Owen Court) whilst "Finsbury Square" (which is not a square but a narrow street) is Porth Canol (Middle Gate) and Arran Road in Welsh is Pont yr Arran (Arran Bridge, which actually is correct as it begins more or less on the bridge over the Arran!).  It's one of the more endearing quirks of the town!

[Adam]

5 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

That is unusual.  It's style reminds me of the non-corporate style sign that marked the entrance to Lea Hall Colliery in Rugeley where my late father worked, so might date back before the dark blue and yellow "NCB" corporate image and have been fabricated locally which might explain the Welsh.

As for English and Welsh names not being the same, many streets in Dolgellau have completely different names in Welsh to English, for example the main square in English is "Eldon Square" but in Welsh is a more prosaic "Stryd Fawr" or Main Street, "Queens Square" is "Llys Owain" (Owen Court) whilst "Finsbury Square" (which is not a square but a narrow street) is Porth Canol (Middle Gate) and Arran Road in Welsh is Pont yr Arran (Arran Bridge, which actually is correct as it begins more or less on the bridge over the Arran!).  It's one of the more endearing quirks of the town!

 

I'm sure it was a product of the pit signwriter (who was quite good, on this evidence). Something approaching Gill sans and everything. For those unfamiliar with Caernarfon, Shirehall Street (where the assizes met, among other things) is, in Welsh, called 'Stryd y Jel', literally, jail street... 

 

Adam

[branchie]

Just checked with the wife (who's got a Welsh degree) and she's more comfortable with Pwll Glo. 

 

Pwll Glo'r Copa would be Summit Colliery. 

[Dave47549]

.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[Fat Controller]

8 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

 

I see where you are going with this, I understand. 

 

For a bit of background in case you didn't know - my first layout was called Summat Colliery as it was "something like a colliery" and a local pit to Mansfield was called "Summit Colliery" in Kirkby in Ashfield

 

Maybe your suggestion of Glofa y Copa is the closest I can reasonably get, hmmmmmmmm

Twyll du....

[J. S. Bach]

Ta parapáno óla akoúgontaigia mou.

[RedgateModels]

8 hours ago, Dave47549 said:

A vote for Glofa from me - although I agree that the OP is being over analysed. So, why not go with..

 

Glofa Gwneud môr a mynydd o rywbeth 

 

Not sure I've got room for that on the front of the layout 

 

I like what Google says of "Glofa o rywbeth" though

[Penlan]

12 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

You are going back too far. Welsh would have been banned at that date.   Jason

'....From 1854.....'
The references come up to around 2003 at least.
John Miles on here knows 'The Icon' who's first language is Welsh (Swansea valleys).
As 'The Icon' doesn't dabble in the virtual world, I will ask John to seek advice 

[John-Miles]

I will consult The Icon but just to confuse things, I did an article about a colliery in the Aman Valley which was called Gwaith y Lamb. The lamb was the nearby pub. Gwaith means work.

[John-Miles]

Sorry for being slow with a reply but I have now consulted The Icon of Abercraf. He says that the normal way of talking about a colliery is to use its name - such as International, Gurnos, Pwllbach etc.. If you were to refer to colliery as such he would Pwll Glo or Gwaith Glo (literal translation coal pit or coal works) but he says that would be unusual.

[NorthBrit]

For those  people from Wales who cannot speak Welsh  --

 

Wales  16   ---   South Africa 19

 

Oh Dearie Mi!"

[RedgateModels]

So would the Welsh speaking world accept "rhywbeth fel pwll glo" as a translation of "Something like a colliery"?

[MartinWales]

On 28/10/2019 at 12:39, NorthBrit said:

For those  people from Wales who cannot speak Welsh  --

 

Wales  16   ---   South Africa 19

 

Oh Dearie Mi!"

Rewind to 16th March-Six Nations Grand Slam? Some people have short memories....

[NHY 581]

On Monday, October 28, 2019 at 12:39, NorthBrit said:

For those  people from Wales who cannot speak Welsh  --

 

Wales  16   ---   South Africa 19

 

Oh Dearie Mi!"

 

Of course no one would ever mention it should England come second on Saturday...........

 

 

Pobl mewn tai gwydr..............

 

Rob. 

 

[NHY 581]

On Monday, October 28, 2019 at 12:39, NorthBrit said:

For those  people from Wales who cannot speak Welsh  --

 

Wales  16   ---   South Africa 19

 

Oh Dearie Mi!"

 

 

England 12    ---  South Africa 32

 

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 19:47, NHY 581 said:

 

Of course no one would ever mention it should England come second on Saturday...........

 

 

Pobl mewn tai gwydr..............

 

Rob.