'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Some were also closely coupled, by various means.

 

Yes indeed. I had omiteed mention of that as not directly applicable to the Hattons carriages with their standard-length buffers.

 

22 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Something I have seen in photos appears to just a single buffer on one side and a buffing plate on the corresponding coach. These must've been fixed rakes as they would need two buffers for the loco!

 

The close-coupled sets of six-wheelers the Midland built in the 1880s (and also four-wheelers for the services out of Moorgate) used just such a system, with dead buffers on one end a miniature buffers on the other. The close coupling was a single link, held by pins in a fork in the end of the drawbar. The hooks seen hanging down in the drawings below were part of the side safety chains. The brake ends of the sets did indeed have conventional buffers and couplings. 

 

 

[Extracts from Midland Railway C&W Drg. 547, Midland Railway Study Centre item 88-D0001; the full drawing can be seen here: 

https://www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/CW_drgs.htm.]

Edited December 13, 2022 by Compound2632

[melmerby]

On 09/12/2022 at 19:04, JohnR said:

 

I'm really surprised that Hornby havnt done something with the Triang short Clerestory coaches to create a range of "generic" bogie pre-group stock - or even the more modern longer ones they did in the 80s. 

 

 

The later ones don't have any beaded panels, which for the period we're talking about wouldn't be typical.

 

 

[melmerby]

52 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes indeed. I had omiteed mention of that as not directly applicable to the Hattons carriages with their standard-length buffers.

 

 

The close-coupled sets of six-wheelers the Midland built in the 1880s (and also four-wheelers for the services out of Moorgate) used just such a system, with dead buffers on one end a miniature buffers on the other. The brake ends of the sets did indeed have conventional buffers and couplings. The close coupling was a single link:

 

[Extracts from Midland Railway C&W Drg. 547, Midland Railway Study Centre item 88-D0001; the full drawing can be seen here: 

https://www.midlandrailwaystudycentre.org.uk/CW_drgs.htm.]

I've been reading more of Russell's GWR coaches Vol 1 and it says the GWR close coupled non bogie vehicles used a single side buffer as above and "a fixed chain".

"permanently coupled with chains"

They also had special short hoses as is also obvious in that Midland drawing.

 

Edited due to wrong phrase inserted

Edited December 13, 2022 by melmerby

[JohnR]

55 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The later ones don't have any beaded panels, which for the period we're talking about wouldn't be typical.

 

 

 

I dont actually have one, so cant be certain, but the paint is doing a good impression of beading here.

 

[phil-b259]

23 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

I dont actually have one, so cant be certain, but the paint is doing a good impression of beading here.

 

 

 

The tooling has always been slab sided so to speak - fine in the 19980s / 1990s but however lovely the paint job the lack of beading is far to noticeable for it to be considered anything other than a 'railroad' type model.

[Nick Holliday]

I don't know why Hornby haven't considered producing their ex-LSWR/SR rebuilds in LSWR livery and perhaps others.  I know that they are slightly different from genuine pre-grouping designs, but within the context of generic types, they would certainly look the part, and fill a corner, and perhaps spike the guns of EFE with their pricey cross-country set.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Nick Holliday said:

they would certainly look the part

 

They're very long, aren't they? 

[JSpencer]

24 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

I don't know why Hornby haven't considered producing their ex-LSWR/SR rebuilds in LSWR livery and perhaps others.  I know that they are slightly different from genuine pre-grouping designs, but within the context of generic types, they would certainly look the part, and fill a corner, and perhaps spike the guns of EFE with their pricey cross-country set.

I personally would prefer EFE set in LSWR colours which is closest (and may be spot on if preserved vehicles are used). The SR rebuilds are Maunsell chasses on lengthened LSWR bodies.

 

Still Hattons are doing LSWR coaches in Genesis...

[phil-b259]

15 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

I don't know why Hornby haven't considered producing their ex-LSWR/SR rebuilds in LSWR livery and perhaps others.  I know that they are slightly different from genuine pre-grouping designs, but within the context of generic types, they would certainly look the part, and fill a corner, and perhaps spike the guns of EFE with their pricey cross-country set.

 

Except said ex LSWR / SR reuilds are not 'Generic!

 

What you are asking is no different to what Lima used to do where they pretended their Mk1s were LMS, SR, & GWR coaches - it stands out a country mile they are not what they purport to be.

 

The Hattons generic coaches 'work' precisely because they are not a slavish copy of any particular vehicle - even if individual elements can be said to be prototypical of specific companies.

 

Hattons put A LOT of time and thought into their Genesis coach range - you will note there are no 4 wheelers amongst the LMS range as they were unable to identify a close enough match with any real 4 wheelers. If we follow your line of thought then every coach type would be offered in every livery....

 

However what manufactures can take away from the Hattons experience is that there is a market out there for CAREFULLY RESEARCHED 'generic' coaches and if someone feels up to designing a bogie 'Generic' coach (with the same careful attention to detail as Hattons have done) then they will most likely sell well.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Except said ex LSWR / SR reuilds are not 'Generic!

 

What you are asking is no different to what Lima used to do where they pretended their Mk1s were LMS, SR, & GWR coaches - it stands out a country mile they are not what they purport to be.

 

The Hattons generic coaches 'work' precisely because they are not a slavish copy of any particular vehicle - even if individual elements can be said to be prototypical of specific companies.

 

Hattons put A LOT of time and thought into their Genesis coach range - you will note there are no 4 wheelers amongst the LMS range as they were unable to identify a close enough match with any real 4 wheelers. If we follow your line of thought then every coach type would be offered in every livery....

 

However what manufactures can take away from the Hattons experience is that there is a market out there for CAREFULLY RESEARCHED 'generic' coaches and if someone feels up to designing a bogie 'Generic' coach (with the same careful attention to detail as Hattons have done) then they will most likely sell well.

 

 

 

The Lima BR Mark Ones did have a slight basis in fact as there was a few spuriously painted in pre 1948 liveries in the early days of preservation. The Dart Valley definitely had some in GWR livery and ISTR the K&WVR had some in LMS livery.

 

These had GREAT WESTERN on them in the same was as BR built Lydham Manor also got GWR livery.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lauriemulrine/36249008990

 

 

Jason

[MartinM]

So is there an opportunity for some bogie early pre-grouping compartment stock in pre-grouping liveries then? It is works in 4 and 6 wheelers then..... 

[RJS1977]

7 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

I dont actually have one, so cant be certain, but the paint is doing a good impression of beading here.

 

 

It would be an interesting exercise for someone to use that photo to create the beading using a Silhouette cutter!

 

Although closer to prototype than the old Triang shorty clerestories, in terms of detailing, the Hornby coach was a step backwards.

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The Lima BR Mark Ones did have a slight basis in fact as there was a few spuriously painted in pre 1948 liveries in the early days of preservation. The Dart Valley definitely had some in GWR livery and ISTR the K&WVR had some in LMS livery.

Not too far off the real BR WR Chocolate & Cream Mk1s and SR Green ones, as well as loads a close match to LMS maroon.

I notice BR didn't attempt a faux teak livery.

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

you will note there are no 4 wheelers amongst the LMS range

What about the 4 wheel lav comp 4X6CL?

Original a 6 wheeler converted to 4.

 

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I notice BR didn't attempt a faux teak livery.

But London Transport did with their 4-TC set.

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

I dont actually have one, so cant be certain, but the paint is doing a good impression of beading here.

 

Exactly as the GWR did on it's early flush sided steel stock.

All (imaginary) panels faithfully lined out

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Not too far off the real BR WR Chocolate & Cream Mk1s and SR Green ones, as well as loads a close match to LMS maroon.

I notice BR didn't attempt a faux teak livery.

 

The Thompson coaches got one in late LNER and early BR days.

 

But ISTR reading somewhere that the ER was pretty happy with the Maroon, wasn't the NER livery similar?

 

Imagine having to paint thousands of coaches in faux teak!

 

 

Jason

[JSpencer]

I am skeptical that a Generic early bogie coach would work as well. Needing generic bogies and determining a generic length. The problem is that we see each company applying more and more its own style and you equally have late pre-grouping coaches already in RTR which are actual scale models of said prototypes.

 

There is less info around for 4 and 6 wheelers, we are less familiar with them.

 

Here is a genesis SECR coach (with LCDR number) all 3rd compared to an etched body side for an LCDR all 3rd coach.

The etched side is a couple of mm shorter, beading is square edged instead of round but numbers of doors, windows, their positions and sizes means that overall genesis passes off well as an ex LCDR coach (more so if had had oil or electric lighting). 

 

This will be harder to do upsizing to a bogie coach I feel.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by JSpencer

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

Exactly as the GWR did on it's early flush sided steel stock.

All (imaginary) panels faithfully lined out

 

Likewise LMS, of course - and I believe Southern too?

 

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

But ISTR reading somewhere that the ER was pretty happy with the Maroon, wasn't the NER livery similar?

 

Well, yes, claret is the default colour for railway carriages, to which they will revert if a conscious effort is not made otherwise - see what happened on the GWR in the decade before grouping.

 

The exception is that early on, green was the default colour for third class carriages. This, I think, tells one a good deal about the attitude of SR and BR(S) to its passengers - an attitude which persists to this day.

 

8 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

I am skeptical that a Generic early bogie coach would work as well. Needing generic bogies and determining a generic length. The problem is that we see each company applying more and more its own style and you equally late pre-grouping coaches already in RTR which are actual scale models of determined prototypes.

 

There is less info around for 4 and 6 wheelers, we are less familiar with them.

 

I'm not convinced that many people are much more familiar with bogie carriages under 57 ft in length than they are with 4 and 6-wheelers! I think a range of generic bogie carriages could work well, based on the design work Hattons have already done. Something in the 42 ft - 44 ft range, based on a 7-compartment third, with a composite, brake third, and, vitally, brake composite.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Compound2632

[JohnR]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm not convinced that many people are much more familiar with bogie carriages under 57 ft in length than they are with 4 and 6-wheelers! I think a range of generic bogie carriages could work well, based on the design work Hattons have already done. Something in the 42 ft - 44 ft range, based on a 7-compartment third, with a composite, brake third, and, vitally, brake composite.

 

I think thats the nub. While a generic early bogie coach might be less prototypical than the 4 & 6 wheel coaches that Hattons have produced, would that matter? What would potential buyers think? Would they still buy them? I think they would, but then its not me that has to put up my money to gamble on it. 

[phil-b259]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

What about the 4 wheel lav comp 4X6CL?

Original a 6 wheeler converted to 4.

 

I was referring to 'as built' 4 - Wheeler.

 

Though you will notice that the accompanying third and brake coaches retained their full compliment of wheels

 

This was done as a result of research by Hattons which attempted to replicate real prototype vehicles.

[Bucoops]

The GER and I believe some others made extensive use of plonking2x 4wheel bodies onto a bogie underframe.

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Though you will notice that the accompanying third and brake coaches retained their full compliment of wheels

I wonder why they didn't become 4 wheelers?

I believe a lot of 6 wheel coaches later had the middle set removed when they were fitted with modern steel wheels instead on Mansell pattern wooden ones.

Not all, of course as some retained Mansell wheels to the end.

[Trog]

On 12/12/2022 at 17:59, melmerby said:

Ordered 6 LMS coaches, all supposedly in stock, card payment authorised  (via passcode) for £244, then site froze and later crashed.

Logged in again, basket still showing 6 coaches awaiting purchase, so clicked buy again. Went to card authorisation again but no passcode was shown, no authorisation possible.

Didn't get an email within 10mins or so, tried phoning Hattons but now shut for the day, so went back into the basket and it now said one coach was OOS (several showing when I ordered!)

So I removed the now OOS coach, order went straight through (no further card authorisation required)

Website does not now show the OOS coach.

 

Still haven't had an e-mail about the order, but it is showing as open in my account

 

Very strange.

 

 

 

 

 

 I notice that there are a couple more types of coach available today than there were yesterday. So might be worth another look.

[Enterprisingwestern]

19 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

However what manufactures can take away from the Hattons experience is that there is a market out there for CAREFULLY RESEARCHED 'generic' coaches and if someone feels up to designing a bogie 'Generic' coach (with the same careful attention to detail as Hattons have done) then they will most likely sell well.

 

As Hattons have done all the hard work, wouldn't a cut and shut, with an obvious nod to the cost, be an acceptable way to a generic bogie coach?

 

Mike.