Zunnan Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Interesting. What do you have in mind there? I can't get the SMJR 27'6" composites 6-9 and thirds 11-13 and saloon 10 out of my mind. No.10 done with a bit of choping of an all third to represent the removed brake compartment and subsequent oddball window arrangement of the real thing. Yes they were 6 wheelers on the SMJ, but the Hattons 4w bodies are actually very close, so I'm tempted for a bit of chassis bashing and running with a loaned 1532 for something VERY different to what everyone else is going to do with these coaches. Edited January 9, 2021 by Zunnan lumped the thirds in with the composites...corrected! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: These are inaccurate models of figments of somebodies imagination. They don't even compare. Ok I think everyone is well aware of this as it’s being repeated at least once a page Let’s just leave people to decide from the posts here if it’s a compromise they are happy with. The info is there in both the Hattons & Hornby threads so just direct them to read it, if they can’t be bothered then they aren’t going to worry. If a prototypical version is so certain to sell why have two big players taken the same decisions? A far more useful answer to all these questions would be to create threads about the real prototype coaches that people could be directed to rather than it being buried in hundreds of posts about these models. Just an idea. 5 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2021 Threads on the each of the big four and their constituents for coaching would give very useful references and five threads, to include BR, would be far less muddled than it’s getting on here and be relevant to all coaches as any model released could be referenced to specific posts within those threads. There’s some fantastic info on design, panelling, liveries and even lighting in here but it’s getting harder to find each company. 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 9, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, PaulRhB said: Threads on the each of the big four and their constituents for coaching would give very useful references and five threads, to include BR, would be far less muddled than it’s getting on here and be relevant to all coaches as any model released could be referenced to specific posts within those threads. There’s some fantastic info on design, panelling, liveries and even lighting in here but it’s getting harder to find each company. I think what you propose is really beyond the scope of RMWeb and would be unwieldly. It's bad enough having separate topics on the Hattons and Hornby carriages! But at least these make it easy to make comparisons between the stock of different companies. If one really wants to find out about the carriage stock of the individual companies, there are works of reference around. The following companies' carriages have been covered pretty comprehensively: Midland LNWR GWR GNR Caledonian LSWR LBSCR ... and possibly others. It's also well worth joining the relevant line society. They will have more information available and your subscription will contribute to supporting members' efforts to put more material into the public domain. Edited January 9, 2021 by Compound2632 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 54 minutes ago, PaulRhB said: Ok I think everyone is well aware of this as it’s being repeated at least once a page Let’s just leave people to decide from the posts here if it’s a compromise they are happy with. The info is there in both the Hattons & Hornby threads so just direct them to read it, if they can’t be bothered then they aren’t going to worry. If a prototypical version is so certain to sell why have two big players taken the same decisions? A far more useful answer to all these questions would be to create threads about the real prototype coaches that people could be directed to rather than it being buried in hundreds of posts about these models. Just an idea. Why edit out the rest so it's taken out of context? Perhaps it would be better to point your ire at the poster who ridiculed the Lima model rather than shooting the messenger.... I let people decide a long time ago. Why would they listen to me anyway? But if people are going to post inaccurate information then surely I've got the right to point out that it's wrong? Jason 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2021 8 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Why edit out the rest so it's taken out of context? Perhaps it would be better to point your ire at the poster who ridiculed the Lima model rather than shooting the messenger.... I let people decide a long time ago. Why would they listen to me anyway? But if people are going to post inaccurate information then surely I've got the right to point out that it's wrong? Jason I was responding to the specific point about these being generic though it’s not intended as a dig at you so sorry if it seemed that, as I pointed out it’s being repeated so frequently that they are generic. The Lima coaches were a lot closer to reality than most of these liveries are I agree. 3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: inaccurate models of figments of somebodies imagination This made me smile to be honest how can it be an inaccurate model of a figment of imagination? Maybe or instead of ‘of’ The point I was trying to make is it’s going in circles on the generic vs accurate and possibly a threads on the big four plus BR might be more useful. 16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: I think what you propose is really beyond the scope of RMWeb and would be unwieldly. It's bad enough having separate topics on the Hattons and Hornby carriages! True but maybe threads that just direct people to the appropriate reference sites and books would be sufficient? On another forum we created a index to decoder fitting that worked very well in a similar way and even when the forum was ended people saved and transferred it all to the new one as a result. It’s not easy or quick but it does give easy points of reference rather than repeating it every time a new model comes out in separate threads 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 9, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, PaulRhB said: how can it be an inaccurate model of a figment of imagination? Maybe or instead of ‘of’ [...] generic vs accurate That doesn't have to be a dichotomy. The Genesis carriages are representative of carriage-building practice in the 80s and 90s - accurate in the sense that they embody widely-used features and eschew anything esoteric or unusual. There should be nothing about them that shouts "impossible" or even "unlikely". (Until one starts putting them into specific liveries, of course!) They're certainly not "figments of the imagination" but grounded in observation of the prototype. In that respect, from what I have seen, the Hattons carriages are accurate and the Hornby ones inaccurate. 14 minutes ago, PaulRhB said: True but maybe threads that just direct people to the appropriate reference sites and books would be sufficient? The sorts of questions that are being asked need specific answers; one would need to refer to chapter and page. Edited January 9, 2021 by Compound2632 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zunnan Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 34 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Perhaps it would be better to point your ire at the poster who ridiculed the Lima model rather than shooting the messenger.... Go on then, I'll play ball. I'm not denying that they look like a Mk1. Ish. Everything about them makes me think of the Hornby 4w and 6w announcement. As I said, from my perspective you can see what they're meant to be but they fall short at so many hurdles. One size fits all roof. One size fits all chassis. One size fits all coach ends, with spurious water filler pipes. Everywhere. Incorrect buffers shared with many many other models in the range. Gangway bellows. Rainstrips. Lack of guttering. Leap of faith for detraining passengers (no footboards) Decide on a paint finish! (3 different shades of red for maroon coaches alone) Growth hormone afflicted full brake (*cough* Hornby 4w brake)...I'll give up the chase there. The Hattons coaches look feasibly correct. No, they don't match a specific prototype. But they follow well defined practices that result in a plausible vehicle. Hornby with their 4 and 6 wheelers (and the Lima Mk1) take a defined design, then start playing Mr Potato Head with the finer details. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 9, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2021 One thing that does make it hard to keep track of the pre-grouping carriage information is filling up the thread with discussion of models of Mk 1 carriages, which are after all the antithesis of the 19th century 6-wheeler! Perhaps they could go and find their own thread. 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2021 46 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: The sorts of questions that are being asked need specific answers; one would need to refer to chapter and page. Yep but they could be answered in a post in a thread like I suggested and then the response here linked to that post I know it’s a bit more fuss but it worked well on the G forum that’s all and kept it much easier to find as it was all together rather than spread between umpteen individual model threads as you’ve already noted with these two manufacturers generic ones. Just an idea based on previous experience that’s all. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Jol Wilkinson Posted January 10, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, PaulRhB said: Yep but they could be answered in a post in a thread like I suggested and then the response here linked to that post I know it’s a bit more fuss but it worked well on the G forum that’s all and kept it much easier to find as it was all together rather than spread between umpteen individual model threads as you’ve already noted with these two manufacturers generic ones. Just an idea based on previous experience that’s all. For those interested in the LNWR carriages, the LNWR Society has sections in it's website on carriages; http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Carriages/index.php and 4mm models (although these are all kits with no RTR available) http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mm.php For those who wish to get detailed information it is worth getting; LNWR Non-Corridor Carriages (listed as LNWRS Portfolio #19 at £9.90) and LNWR 30' 1" Six- Wheeled Carriages; (listed under books at £15.00, half the original published price) both published by the LNWR Society. Edited January 10, 2021 by Jol Wilkinson Additional text 6 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les1952 Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 On 09/01/2021 at 21:20, Compound2632 said: One thing that does make it hard to keep track of the pre-grouping carriage information is filling up the thread with discussion of models of Mk 1 carriages, which are after all the antithesis of the 19th century 6-wheeler! Perhaps they could go and find their own thread. I agree the Mark 1 is best discussed elsewhere- but Great grandson rather than antithesis. You can trace a development through Victorian 6-wheelers to bogie stock then adding in corridoors etc via the Mark 1 to the present middle cars on AZumas etc. Les 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 11, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2021 4 hours ago, Les1952 said: I agree the Mark 1 is best discussed elsewhere- but Great grandson rather than antithesis. You can trace a development through Victorian 6-wheelers to bogie stock then adding in corridoors etc via the Mark 1 to the present middle cars on AZumas etc. Well, they're all carriages. But antithesis in the sense of bland uniformity vs. infinite variety. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil gollin Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 . For Hattons Dave ; When the final livery samples are shown and upon release, are you intending to cover all varieties on this single thread, or will you do a new thread for each variety ? Both have advantages, and disadvantages. . 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Harrison Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) Just a thought. If these take off and sell like the proverbial hot cakes (and of course we all hope they do, don't we?), would that encourage Hattons to look at, say, 50' non-corridor bogie carriages in a like manner? Edited January 11, 2021 by James Harrison 4 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 11, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) 28 minutes ago, James Harrison said: Just a thought. If these take off and sell like the proverbial hot cakes (and of course we all hope they do, don't we?), would that encourage Hattons to look at, say, 50' non-corridor bogie carriages in a like manner? This was discussed somewhere up-thread. I was arguing for slightly shorter: 42ft - 44ft, i.e. 7-compartment thirds rather than 8-compartment thirds. That would be more 1880s/90s matching the 6-wheelers. 50ft or thereabouts smacks too much of c. 1900 onwards suburban sets. A brake composite - with or without lavatories - is of course de rigueur. Edited January 11, 2021 by Compound2632 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Harrison Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 Funny you should say that, the 1900s suburban sets were rather what I had in mind. (Being purely selfish, 50' suburbans I'd buy two or three rakes of, 42- 44' carriages I might two or three examples of). There's a yawning gap in the market for both, of course. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 11, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2021 59 minutes ago, James Harrison said: Being purely selfish, 50' suburbans I'd buy two or three rakes of, 42- 44' carriages I might two or three examples of Quite so. The sort of suburban sets I have in mind typically ran to seven, eight, or nine carriages - which would appeal to a manufacturer, I'm sure. A set of L&Y 49 ft carriages would go very well with the Bachmann Aspinall tank. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted January 12, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Compound2632 said: Quite so. The sort of suburban sets I have in mind typically ran to seven, eight, or nine carriages - which would appeal to a manufacturer, I'm sure. A set of L&Y 49 ft carriages would go very well with the Bachmann Aspinall tank. That is precisely my plan. Though I am biased, I have an A, 2x 0-6-0ST rebuilds, a Dreadnought, 2xDreadnought tanks as well as the Aspinalls... oh and pugs. The A class 0-6-0 is a class much overdue to be modelled. L&Y has some very fanciful stock...Butter Vans, Pigeon carriers, corpse wagon ! I’m surprised some of these havent been outed, even as kits. Edited January 12, 2021 by adb968008 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph the L&YR lover Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 7 hours ago, adb968008 said: That is precisely my plan. Though I am biased, I have an A, 2x 0-6-0ST rebuilds, a Dreadnought, 2xDreadnought tanks as well as the Aspinalls... oh and pugs. The A class 0-6-0 is a class much overdue to be modelled. L&Y has some very fanciful stock...Butter Vans, Pigeon carriers, corpse wagon ! I’m surprised some of these havent been outed, even as kits. don't forget the 30 ton wagons 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tim Hall Posted January 12, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 12, 2021 On 08/01/2021 at 10:04, Oldddudders said: Not to mention Kernow. Lord and Butler had Barclays and P class on the shelves... 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingley hall Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 On 12/01/2021 at 04:33, James Harrison said: Just a thought. If these take off and sell like the proverbial hot cakes (and of course we all hope they do, don't we?), would that encourage Hattons to look at, say, 50' non-corridor bogie carriages in a like manner? Do we have the stamina for another 100+ page thread? 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Is there any evidence to suggest that there's any shortage among us of those who would need to make fanciful, off-topic, un-informed or factually incorrect statements and to otherwise "prattle on" to the extent necessary to help to fill 100+ pages? 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2021 2 hours ago, bingley hall said: Do we have the stamina for another 100+ page thread? As I pointed out, this had already been discussed up-thread. But that's no real excuse for not returning to the subject! 1 minute ago, gr.king said: Is there any evidence to suggest that there's any shortage among us of those who would need to make fanciful, off-topic, un-informed or factually incorrect statements and to otherwise "prattle on" to the extent necessary to help to fill 100+ pages? No. But if you have any evidence that I've made a factually incorrect statement please do let me know as I'm always willing to learn. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted January 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2021 3 hours ago, bingley hall said: Do we have the stamina for another 100+ page thread? It could all be put in ten pages or less. 49 minutes ago, gr.king said: Is there any evidence to suggest that there's any shortage among us of those who would need to make fanciful, off-topic, un-informed or factually incorrect statements and to otherwise "prattle on" to the extent necessary to help to fill 100+ pages? No. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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