Ventnor Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 18 hours ago, Hattons Dave said: Hello Compound2632, We certainly have, they've been adjusted as you previously suggested. Hi Andy, We're not looking at 4-wheel full brakes for the time being, just the 6-wheelers for now. I hope this helps. Cheers, Dave Thanks Dave and good luck with the project. Andy. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Ashdown Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Just a observation, but there are no 2nd Class compartments for the SECR carriages. Will these be provided for? Dana 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted November 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Dana Ashdown said: Just a observation, but there are no 2nd Class compartments for the SECR carriages. Will these be provided for? Dana It depends on what period you model. It was abolished by most companies in the early 20th century. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2019 When did the SECR abolish second class for ordinary services? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Second class wasn't abolished until 1956 I believe, Kept for boat trains as boats/ships still had three classes. Although what rickety old carriages would be doing in boat trains is the question.... The Bachmann birdcages have second class accommodation built from 1912. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted November 9, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2019 Third class became second class in 1956 before later becoming standard class. Second class was only retained for boat trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 4 hours ago, Compound2632 said: When did the SECR abolish second class for ordinary services? 4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: Second class wasn't abolished until 1956 I believe, Kept for boat trains as boats/ships still had three classes. I'm no expert, and freely admit that I may have missed the point, but the SECR was amalgamated in 1923. And SR certainly ran first and third, not second, for some time (second reintroduced under BR(S)?). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted November 10, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 10, 2019 8 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said: Just a observation, but there are no 2nd Class compartments for the SECR carriages. Will these be provided for? Dana Yes there are. Look at H4-4C12-401 4 wheel composite (1st/2nd) 2062 in SECR livery 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bingley hall Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 On 08/11/2019 at 07:40, Hroth said: Given some of the comments that have been posted here, I wonder how close Hattons have been to "like it or lump it" territory! That they've paid attention to sensible suggestions and managed to hold their tongues is remarkable, and I wish them all the best in this endeavour. Quite so. 60 pages in and still the thread that keeps on giving 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 8 hours ago, truffy said: I'm no expert, and freely admit that I may have missed the point, but the SECR was amalgamated in 1923. And SR certainly ran first and third, not second, for some time (second reintroduced under BR(S)?). I can't help with ordinary services, but the SE&CR built their distinctive match-boarded Continental stock in 1921, comprising only First and Second class stock. The SR continued with this design, building another 20 second class only vehicles, but also relenting and adding some 16 Third class vehicles. This stock continued to run on Continental services until around 1934, when the Second class accommodation was reclassified as Third. But Second class still continued as Maunsell built a number of "Non-descript" saloons, which could be labelled as First, Second or Third as the traffic demanded. So second class didn't die on the Southern, although it may have gone into hibernation during the war. I think BR(S) continued with the nondescript idea until the abolition of three classes. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 10, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said: I can't help with ordinary services, but the SE&CR built their distinctive match-boarded Continental stock in 1921, comprising only First and Second class stock. The SR continued with this design, building another 20 second class only vehicles, but also relenting and adding some 16 Third class vehicles. This stock continued to run on Continental services until around 1934, when the Second class accommodation was reclassified as Third. But Second class still continued as Maunsell built a number of "Non-descript" saloons, which could be labelled as First, Second or Third as the traffic demanded. So second class didn't die on the Southern, although it may have gone into hibernation during the war. I think BR(S) continued with the nondescript idea until the abolition of three classes. Which is why I asked about "ordinary services" - not the boat trains. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 On 10/11/2019 at 06:50, Nick Holliday said: I can't help with ordinary services, but the SE&CR built their distinctive match-boarded Continental stock in 1921, comprising only First and Second class stock. The SR continued with this design, building another 20 second class only vehicles, but also relenting and adding some 16 Third class vehicles. This stock continued to run on Continental services until around 1934, when the Second class accommodation was reclassified as Third. But Second class still continued as Maunsell built a number of "Non-descript" saloons, which could be labelled as First, Second or Third as the traffic demanded. So second class didn't die on the Southern, although it may have gone into hibernation during the war. I think BR(S) continued with the nondescript idea until the abolition of three classes. There were also a couple of Maunsell low-window Brake Seconds for the Newhaven Boats and a couple of high-window 1st/2nd Brake Composites which - judging by the date of conversion - were probably for the post war Night Ferry ............ then B.R. built a batch of Open Seconds too - though they became Ist class when 2nd WAS finally abolished ............... but this is getting a long, long way from four an' six wheelers ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardLong Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Might be of interest: 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 12, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) There is a set of J.S. Doubleday photos of these Aston departmental 6-wheelers taken on 4 July 1957 on Mike Musson's Warwickshire Railways website: M284678 - ex-LNWR 30'1" D197 as in @RichardLong's post. DM27528M - mis-identified in the caption, an ex-Midland 29 ft third brake of 1875 - one of 40 built by the Swansea Wagon Co., originally Nos. 1137-1163; built as a 4-wheeler, converted to 6 wheels in the 1880s; converted to brakedown train tool van c. 1898-9. M284609 - another ex-LNWR 30'1" D197 centre luggage composite, but with the quarter-lights and upper panelling replaced with matchboarding in the same style as DM27528M - this indicates that it was converted to a brakedown van post-grouping. The Midland used this style of matchboarding for brakedown tool and mess van conversions from c. 1898; initial conversions were of these 29 ft third brakes and some 29 ft centre-luggage composites of 1874/5 that became riding vans*; subsequently a number of D516 31 ft centre-luggage composites were converted in a similar style as required up to 1922; after the grouping the LMS continued these conversions, using a number of the LNWR 30'1" carriages. I suspect the fully boarded carriage was fitted out as a tool van (note that all the doors have been sealed up with the exception of the luggage compartment doors) and the unconverted carriage was used as a riding van (the doors of the first class compartments have been sealed up, some partitions removed and, I suspect, longitudinal bench seating installed). *There is a photograph of one of these, LMS 7304, allocated to Bedford Motive Power Section, in R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1980) plate 389. This also has the white cross at the right hand end, as DM27528M, which I presumes means the vehicle carries some first aid equipment. The same work has photos of Midland 31 ft 5-compartment thirds to D493 converted to ballast brakes in a similar fashion [plates 387 and 388]. The 29 ft carriage conversions can be seen in the background in numerous Midland division shed photos in C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981). [R. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Carriages Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 1986) and my own research.] Edited November 12, 2019 by Compound2632 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nswgr1855 Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 I'm no expert at UK prototype, but from the limited photographs I have seen of GNR 6 wheelers, they have a semi elliptical roof shape. This is a significant visual difference, easily seen from a distance. Yes it would cost more to have a second roof shape and ends tooled, but if Australian suppliers can supply RTR carriages of complete NSWGR train sets where most cars are different. Im sure the economics is good enough for a second roof shape in the much larger UK market. I would also have expected most of these early non bogie carriages to have spoked wheels. Terry Flynn. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted November 19, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2019 In 60 pages I may have missed it, but are any of these coaches suitable for running with the Stirling Single? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Craigw Posted November 19, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2019 10 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said: In 60 pages I may have missed it, but are any of these coaches suitable for running with the Stirling Single? The coaches are freelance, they can run with anything and it will be accurate or inaccurate depending on your view on such things. Craig w 1 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNR Dave Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 The livery is good for the Great Northern but the beading style and curve of the roof are not typical GNR standards. But as the OP suggests, they are generic, non company specific. I guess you either accept the inaccuracies or build some kits or wait to see if Locomotion Models fulfil their proposal to do some prototypical RTR GNR stock. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNR Dave Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 For what it's worth, I'll probably get a set in GNR livery for my Single / GN Atlantic / N2 / J52 etc., but I'll also be getting an SECR livery set for my C, D, H, and P classes and a set in LBSCR livery for my Brighton locos. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 19, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 19, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, nswgr1855 said: I'm no expert at UK prototype, but from the limited photographs I have seen of GNR 6 wheelers, they have a semi elliptical roof shape. This is a significant visual difference, easily seen from a distance. Yes it would cost more to have a second roof shape and ends tooled, but if Australian suppliers can supply RTR carriages of complete NSWGR train sets where most cars are different. Im sure the economics is good enough for a second roof shape in the much larger UK market. I would also have expected most of these early non bogie carriages to have spoked wheels. I'm glad to have it confirmed that the differences between the 19th-century carriages of the pre-grouping companies are evident to a confessed non-expert! But if one was to go to the trouble of proper GNR*-shaped roofs and ends, one might as well do sides with the correct panelling... *For example. Other lines are available. Re. wheels: Mansell wood-centred wheels were well-nigh universal from the late sixties through to at least the twenties - most of these 4 and 6-wheelers will have gone to the grave with Mansell wheels. Edited November 19, 2019 by Compound2632 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted November 19, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, nswgr1855 said: I'm no expert at UK prototype, but from the limited photographs I have seen of GNR 6 wheelers, they have a semi elliptical roof shape. This is a significant visual difference, easily seen from a distance. Yes it would cost more to have a second roof shape and ends tooled, but if Australian suppliers can supply RTR carriages of complete NSWGR train sets where most cars are different. Im sure the economics is good enough for a second roof shape in the much larger UK market. I would also have expected most of these early non bogie carriages to have spoked wheels. Terry Flynn. The Australian coach sets are more comparable with Bachmann's Blue Pullman sets, both in concept an pricing (i.e. around three times what these will cost). Anything can be done, but what can be done for £30 is much more limited, so the comparison doesn't hold water. These will be freelance models that don't look too out of place in a multitude of liveries and at very modest price points. Hatton's have decided that coaches from any single railway company would not attract sufficient demand (at the prices it would be necessary to charge) to justify making prototypical four and six-wheelers at the present time. Therefore, these products are not intended for dedicated modellers of any specific railway company, whose requirements and willingness to pay for real accuracy will be very different. They are aimed at more numerous uncommitted modellers/collectors who want affordable coaches that generally "look the part" behind whichever r-t-r locos in pretty pre-group liveries have taken their fancy. Very early coaches did have spoked wheels but, by the period (post-1860) that these models purport to represent, the Mansell type (wooden centres with a steel tyre) had become the norm John Edited November 19, 2019 by Dunsignalling 4 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said: ........ Very early coaches did have spoked wheels but, by the period (post-1860) that these models purport to represent, the Mansell type (wooden centres with a steel tyre) had become the norm John As ever there were exceptions and the Bluebell's Brighton 'Milk Van' managed to survive into BR days - as a departmental vehicle - on a set of spoked wheels : it was last seen on a set of Pullman four-hole disc wheels after those were condemned ! [ Hopefully Hattons will supply wheels on standard 26mm pinpoint axles ( unlike some other manufacturers ) so purchasers can chop-an-change at will.] 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted November 19, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 19, 2019 There is a pic of a six wheel former carriage in departmental service with each axle carrying different types of wheels. The only common feature was the diameter of the wheels. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, PhilJ W said: The only common feature was the diameter of the wheels. I find that strangely comforting! 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted November 19, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Wickham Green said: As ever there were exceptions and the Bluebell's Brighton 'Milk Van' managed to survive into BR days - as a departmental vehicle - on a set of spoked wheels : it was last seen on a set of Pullman four-hole disc wheels after those were condemned ! [ Hopefully Hattons will supply wheels on standard 26mm pinpoint axles ( unlike some other manufacturers ) so purchasers can chop-an-change at will.] I never suggested there weren't exceptions, "the norm" doesn't imply universality, just the most common practice. I share your hope that standard-length axles will be provided to enable us all to produce the freak Departmental vehicle of our dreams. John 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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