Imaginary Locomotives

[TheQ]

Thank you for including the SLS image, we still exist. Love the Midland 4-4-4T, that is one that should have been built.

The Midland did own some... sort of, since they were owed money by the MSWJR, There were two  in Crimson lake on the Midland and South Western Junction railway.

They were generally Carp... not enough weight on the powered wheels..

Roxley Mouldings do a swindonised in in 4mm  . only lasted less than 6 years under GWR..

[JimC]

On the GWR 4-4-0 side, its worth noting that Churchward had Holcroft draft up some ideas for a range of secondary service classes, a 2-6-0 and a 4-4-0 which would have had piston valves above inside cylinders. However as Holcroft tells it he couldn't work in 10inch piston valves over the cylinders, and so Churchward had him draw an outside cylinder 2-6-0, (something Holcroft had suggested after seeing them used as maids of all work in the US), and in the event that could do just about anything a 4-4-0 could.

 

I suppose Holcroft could have put the valves half outside the frames, operated by rockers, but its hard to imagine what the resulting confection would have looked like... Might be interesting to try and draw, but the 2-6-0 was undoubtedly a better solution.

Edited September 26, 2018 by JimC

[JimC]

Now, I fear I'm being silly... 

I've had a guess as to where an outside - or possibly over - the frame valve might go. Its at an angle to the cylinders, which would be 10 degrees like the Bulldog.

I've made an attempt at drawing outside Stephensons gear because access when its level with the cylinders instead of below like the Bulldog might be tricky.

I'm not really sure the valve size makes sense and I'm almost certain the valve gear components aren't in the right relationship to each other and the wheels.

 

 

[Northroader]

The Italian State Railways did quite a lot of engines with inside cylinders and outside piston valves.

[Niels]

The Italian State Railways did quite a lot of engines with inside cylinders and outside piston valves.7E6B85B1-63EB-4DF6-AE35-423C55EA7DB0.jpeg

And longlived.

ca 300 built 25 exist and 10 are running(Mainline sometimes)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOapB_xbhHY

Edited September 26, 2018 by Niels

[Compound2632]

The Midland 4-4-4T isn't so very far off the mark - it's got a good deal of the Belpaire 4-4-0s about it. The extant Derby drawing shows an engine with a round-topped H boiler rather than a Belpaire; also it has 5'7" diameter drivers - rather smaller than Mr Cornish's drawing; slide valves and consequently a lower-pitched boiler than Mr Cornish has drawn - he's clearly got piston valves in mind from the depth of the front framing; and a rather ugly flowerpot chimney of the sort that was regrettably rather in vogue at the time - c. 1903. On the whole, I think I prefer Mr Cornish's vision. Of course the design process that began with this 4-4-4T scheme eventually produced the rather prosaic 0-6-4Ts of the 2000 Class or "flatirons", but not before throwing out some early hints in the direction of Derby's finest passenger tank engine, the LMS standard 4P 2-6-4T - the first scheme for a 2-6-4T was drawn out in August 1904, by June 1906 one with outside cylinders, Walschaerts valve gear, and a Belpaire boiler had been drawn up. [Ref. P. Atkins, The evolution of the "Flatirons", Midland Record No. 9.]

Edited September 26, 2018 by Compound2632

[sir douglas]

not locomotive but i was thinking about how some heritage lines use dmu's in quieter times of the year as a cheaper alternative to loco hauled, or in the busy seasons use it as an inspection saloon or for prebooked private charters. how about a 2 or 3 car dmu to work the longer 2ft lines such as the Ffestinog & welsh highland or the possible eventual full length Lynton & Barnstaple, the Ffestiniog tried a push-pull set with Criccieth castle but im thinking of a proper dmu set with (if possible) an underslung engine under the floor or on floor level but sat sideways to reduce room for seating, the traction motors, generators and controls from a second hand narrow gauge diesel-electric loco, a driving bogie at either end of the set and the engine & generator behind the cab at the Blaenau end (Festiniog uphill end), basically thinking of something that looks like a shrunken down class 101

[john new]

not locomotive but i was thinking about how some heritage lines use dmu's in quieter times of the year as a cheaper alternative to loco hauled, or in the busy seasons use it as an inspection saloon or for prebooked private charters. how about a 2 or 3 car dmu to work the longer 2ft lines such as the Ffestinog & welsh highland or the possible eventual full length Lynton & Barnstaple, the Ffestiniog tried a push-pull set with Criccieth castle but im thinking of a proper dmu set with (if possible) an underslung engine under the floor or on floor level but sat sideways to reduce room for seating, the traction motors, generators and controls from a second hand narrow gauge diesel-electric loco, a driving bogie at either end of the set and the engine & generator behind the cab at the Blaenau end (Festiniog uphill end), basically thinking of something that looks like a shrunken down class 101

If taking the DMU direction wouldn't a 'Thumper' or a trailer unit 4TC style be easier to fit into any line's loading gauge and could be constructed using standard coach components from the likes of Alan Keef et al.

[melmerby]

The Italian State Railways did quite a lot of engines with inside cylinders and outside piston valves.7E6B85B1-63EB-4DF6-AE35-423C55EA7DB0.jpeg

The LNWR had five locos with inside cylinders and valves with outside valve gear "The Tishies"

 

Can't find a piccy online but Essery and Jenkinson have a couple in their LMS locomotives series.

 

Keith

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Just found this one for sale on E-Bay. Looks to be made out of a couple of Hiawatha's, and a couple of 2-6-2 tanks.

 

manna

[Compound2632]

not locomotive but i was thinking about how some heritage lines use dmu's in quieter times of the year as a cheaper alternative to loco hauled, or in the busy seasons use it as an inspection saloon or for prebooked private charters. how about a 2 or 3 car dmu to work the longer 2ft lines such as the Ffestinog & welsh highland or the possible eventual full length Lynton & Barnstaple, the Ffestiniog tried a push-pull set with Criccieth castle but im thinking of a proper dmu set with (if possible) an underslung engine under the floor or on floor level but sat sideways to reduce room for seating, the traction motors, generators and controls from a second hand narrow gauge diesel-electric loco, a driving bogie at either end of the set and the engine & generator behind the cab at the Blaenau end (Festiniog uphill end), basically thinking of something that looks like a shrunken down class 101

 

John de Frayssinet did just this sort of thing on his County Gate layouts.

[melmerby]

G'Day Folks

 

Just found this one for sale on E-Bay. Looks to be made out of a couple of Hiawatha's, and a couple of 2-6-2 tanks.

 

manna

I don't understand that tender, the original R54 loco had one (R32) like this:

 

https://tri-ang.weebly.com/uploads/4/7/4/0/4740720/r54-r32-mk3-dsc-1930-zpswj045l4r-edit1_orig.jpg

 

Which looks more American to me.

(I used to have one of those)

It was an easy way of using the Princess chassis for something slightly different. that might appeal to North American markets.

 

Keith

 

EDIT the bashed loco actually looks quite good, using such basic bits

The Yellowstone 2-8-8-4 did have a tender much like that.

 

Lionel did a 2-6-6-2

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41mKD45kieL.jpg

Edited September 27, 2018 by melmerby

[manna]

G'day Folks

 

It said on the blurb, that the tender came from a 'Kitmaster' loco, and kitmaster made a NYC 4-6-4.

 

manna

[Zomboid]

not locomotive but i was thinking about how some heritage lines use dmu's in quieter times of the year as a cheaper alternative to loco hauled, or in the busy seasons use it as an inspection saloon or for prebooked private charters. how about a 2 or 3 car dmu to work the longer 2ft lines such as the Ffestinog & welsh highland or the possible eventual full length Lynton & Barnstaple, the Ffestiniog tried a push-pull set with Criccieth castle but im thinking of a proper dmu set with (if possible) an underslung engine under the floor or on floor level but sat sideways to reduce room for seating, the traction motors, generators and controls from a second hand narrow gauge diesel-electric loco, a driving bogie at either end of the set and the engine & generator behind the cab at the Blaenau end (Festiniog uphill end), basically thinking of something that looks like a shrunken down class 101

The Ravenglass & Eskdale had a multiple unit, maybe still does. I think it was battery powered at one point.

 

Behold! http://www.citytransport.info/PhotoCD/PCD17_13a.jpg

Edited September 27, 2018 by Zomboid

[BernardTPM]

not locomotive but i was thinking about how some heritage lines use dmu's in quieter times of the year as a cheaper alternative to loco hauled, or in the busy seasons use it as an inspection saloon or for prebooked private charters. how about a 2 or 3 car dmu to work the longer 2ft lines such as the Ffestinog & welsh highland or the possible eventual full length Lynton & Barnstaple, the Ffestiniog tried a push-pull set with Criccieth castle but im thinking of a proper dmu set with (if possible) an underslung engine under the floor or on floor level but sat sideways to reduce room for seating, the traction motors, generators and controls from a second hand narrow gauge diesel-electric loco, a driving bogie at either end of the set and the engine & generator behind the cab at the Blaenau end (Festiniog uphill end), basically thinking of something that looks like a shrunken down class 101

There is already a thread for fictional units.

[Gilwell Park]

Continuing with my Q1 project. First variation is an 0-6-4T version. I will see if I can also make it an 0-6-2T, but from this I want to extend forwards, and then evolve into the one depicted in book. Also want to try out some other versions with tender, maybe even a version based on the mockup on the School loco.

For speed of development I have not done the wheels, but will do, especial;ly when it moves onto longer versions.

This is my DIY version, usually found on coal empties. Roger

[rue_d_etropal]

nice model. The tanks suit the shape. I have wondered whether the tanks would come down lower. Not sure how much water they would hold. The picture of the 4-6-4 has the tanks coming down level with the base of cab and tender.

 

 

I am working through various possibilities. My premise is that Bulleid got the job, not Riddles for the war time locos, followed up by the BR job. The WC and MBN nicely fill the large passenger classes. That leaves a whole load of others.

Smallest I have so far done is an 0-6-2T. Just about possible. Ideal for pushpull trains. Then  the slightly bigger 0-6-4T, followed by various combinaton of 2-6-2T, 2-6-4T, 4-6-2T, 4-6-4T.

Tjhe overall wheelbase for an 0-8-o is only fractionally longer than the Q1, and can be fitted under same body as the Q1. From this it is possible to create a 2-8-2T, 2-8-4T, o-8-2T and 0-8-4T. 

Now the 4-6-2T and 4-6-4T require a longer body, and it is long enough to fit a 2-10-2 and 2-10-4T, not forgetting a 4-8-2T and 4-8-4T,  an 0-10-2T and 0-10-4T using same body, but with slightly shorter front end.

Then thee are the tender locos.So far I have concentrated on a 2-8-0 2-10-0, and an 0-10-0 . . A 4-8-0 is also possible using same body as the 2-10-0. I have not looked at the 4-6-0 or 2-6-0 yet, but thosewill fit same bodies as the 2-8-0 and 2-10-0.

Hopefully I will be able to post some illustrations soon.

[Corbs]

Reminds me of a few from several months ago...

[Niels]

nice model. The tanks suit the shape. I have wondered whether the tanks would come down lower. Not sure how much water they would hold. The picture of the 4-6-4 has the tanks coming down level with the base of cab and tender.

 

 

I am working through various possibilities. My premise is that Bulleid got the job, not Riddles for the war time locos, followed up by the BR job. The WC and MBN nicely fill the large passenger classes. That leaves a whole load of others.

Smallest I have so far done is an 0-6-2T. Just about possible. Ideal for pushpull trains. Then  the slightly bigger 0-6-4T, followed by various combinaton of 2-6-2T, 2-6-4T, 4-6-2T, 4-6-4T.

Tjhe overall wheelbase for an 0-8-o is only fractionally longer than the Q1, and can be fitted under same body as the Q1. From this it is possible to create a 2-8-2T, 2-8-4T, o-8-2T and 0-8-4T. 

Now the 4-6-2T and 4-6-4T require a longer body, and it is long enough to fit a 2-10-2 and 2-10-4T, not forgetting a 4-8-2T and 4-8-4T,  an 0-10-2T and 0-10-4T using same body, but with slightly shorter front end.

Then thee are the tender locos.So far I have concentrated on a 2-8-0 2-10-0, and an 0-10-0 . . A 4-8-0 is also possible using same body as the 2-10-0. I have not looked at the 4-6-0 or 2-6-0 yet, but thosewill fit same bodies as the 2-8-0 and 2-10-0.

Hopefully I will be able to post some illustrations soon.

 

 

S160 showed that wide firebox and five feet drivers were a possibility even within UK loading gauge..

My set of playing rules would the be five feet drivers, wide, round topped fireboxes and three cylinders for locomotives intended to go more than 60.

I have tried but still Belpairing

 

https://i.imgur.com/T7UcVMs.jpg

Edited September 29, 2018 by Niels

[rue_d_etropal]

Reminds me of a few from several months ago...

bulleid-q-2-10-0.jpg

bulleid-q-pacific-2.jpg

bulleid-q-0-8-0.jpg

Actually those are closer to what could be done than I remembered. Big difference though is that all my designs will be designs for models(3D printed bodies). I have tried to keep as close to the original Q1 design, such as cab size. Using as many common parts would be essential for lower build and maintence costs.

For the bigger tender locos I have stretched the Q1 to the length of standard LNER one(ie the same as the austerity version), thereby combining SR and LNER , not LMS and LNER.

Edited September 28, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[rue_d_etropal]

I have done some mockups, with basic chassis to show wheel arrangements.

Starting with the tank locos, 16 variations, plus any small modifications. Only the Q1 version, without 'air smoothing'

Full list on my website

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/3d_printed_sg-trains-q1-variations.htm

Tender locos added to the list. Now I have of finish off designs, and resize into different scales.

 

From the small 06-2T

to the huge 2-10-4T

Edited September 28, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[LNWR18901910]

I have done some mockups, with basic chassis to show wheel arrangements.

Starting with the tank locos, 16 variations, plus any small modifications. Only the Q1 version, without 'air smoothing'

Full list on my website

http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/3d_printed_sg-trains-q1-variations.htm

Tender locos added to the list. Now I have of finish off designs, and resize into different scales.

 

From the small 06-2T

to the huge 2-10-4T

Nice models! Will they be available online?

Edited September 29, 2018 by LNWR18901910

[runs as required]

Interesting forms.

Thinking about tankage and air-moothing, is the saddle tank format a possibilty ?

It might be that a bit of plumbing could have water circulating aound a number of tanks: well tanks below the boiller as well as under the bunker, eventually entering the boiler at it hottest after convection.

dh

[rue_d_etropal]

Nice models! Will they be available online?

I am curretly working through designs, so will have all designs in N, TT3, HO and OO soon.

I also want to do the air smoothed 4-6-4T which was in the book, and initially got me interested.

Edited September 29, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[rockershovel]

The LNWR had five locos with inside cylinders and valves with outside valve gear "The Tishies"

 

Can't find a piccy online but Essery and Jenkinson have a couple in their LMS locomotives series.

 

Keith