Imaginary Locomotives

[brack]

Well. I wouldn't say the the Fletcher 901 Class, the Tennants, T.W. Worsdell's Class F, or Wilson Worsdell's Classes M, R, or R1 were either unsuccessful or small for their day.

True, I meant the immediate pre/post grouping era. They hadn't cracked six coupled express power. The A2 was essentially not a million miles behind the A1 in 1923, but the A1 had a lot more headroom for development. They hung around until their boilers needed replacing, then were let go. Not rubbish, but not great. By grouping the NER had good, reasonably modern, reliable, robust designs for most jobs (many of which lasted until the end of steam). However the A2 wasn't great and the Atlantics couldn't handle a large enough train (hence they built the A2).

[Compound2632]

True, I meant the immediate pre/post grouping era. They hadn't cracked six coupled express power. 

 

I knew you did - just leg-pulling. Not many had worked out how to build an effective 4-6-0 by the grouping, with some eminent engineers having some notable failures - the great Dugald of course (Urie to the rescue) and George Hughes - the LMS Crab is proof he was no fool. Someone will be along shortly to point out the successes... 

[Zomboid]

How often would the wires come down as a result of the storms in the area?

Depends doesn't it? A solid beam conductor with portal supports every 5m would be very robust, some headspans at 70m spacing less so.

[melmerby]

. Not many had worked out how to build an effective 4-6-0 by the grouping, ... 

Churchward?

Two different series of locos (Saint & Star)

 

Keith

[The Black Hat]

True, I meant the immediate pre/post grouping era. They hadn't cracked six coupled express power. The A2 was essentially not a million miles behind the A1 in 1923, but the A1 had a lot more headroom for development. They hung around until their boilers needed replacing, then were let go. Not rubbish, but not great. By grouping the NER had good, reasonably modern, reliable, robust designs for most jobs (many of which lasted until the end of steam). However the A2 wasn't great and the Atlantics couldn't handle a large enough train (hence they built the A2).

 

True but don't forget the personal factor - Gresley is hardly going to compare two designs from his own company, with one from elsewhere and then his own, against a third engine - then find the third one is better than his. He'd have to be a brave man to admit that of the two home designs his was pretty naff and choose someone elses to adopt. I actually think that really he just chose his own design, they were already under construction at Doncaster, where as the A2 was stopped in the North East. I don't buy the lack of potential for the Raven A2 either as some of them were significantly modified - City of York I think was the one done. That shows with modification the design had potential making a Raven/Gresley machine. 

 

In operational terms the A1 was easier to pick up on, but I honestly think Gresley just chose his own design. 

[Corbs]

The comment about 4-4-0s having gone out of fashion long before the 'Schools' were introduced made me ponder about a post-war foray from Swindon....

 

Not quite a 'County'!

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Corbs

[melmerby]

The comment about 4-4-0s having gone out of fashion long before the 'Schools' were introduced made me ponder about a post-war foray from Swindon....

 

Not quite a 'County'!

 

gwr hawksworth borough.jpg

Could try it with outside valve gear.

Then it would be very much like the proposed 4-4-0 from 1944.

 

Mind you the GWR showed what could be done with a box of old, leftover, standard bits when the 32XX/Dukedogs appeared (after the Schools).

 

Keith

Edited September 17, 2018 by melmerby

[Corbs]

This one has valve gear more like the 1500 class.

 

 

Compared to the original...

 

 

These two locos are, in their own way, 'a nod to Brent'....

Edited September 17, 2018 by Corbs

[runs as required]

This one has valve gear more like the 1500 class......

These two locos are, in their own way, 'a nod to Brent'....

You could give them relevant Cricketing Minor Counties names

County of Berkshire, County of Cheshire, County of Cornwall, County of Devon  County of Dorset,  County of Herefordshire,  County of Shropshire, County of Wiltshire

The original [Churchward Counties it says here ] were found to be rough riders .... All other GWR 4-4-0s were inside-cylindered and none had a piston stroke greater than 26", whereas the 'County' had a 30" stroke driving a meagre 8' 6" wheelbase. The County Class used the same cylinders and motion as Churchward's six-coupled locomotives and required the same mass to counterbalance the reciprocating parts of the motion. However the weight required had to be divided between four driving wheels rather than six.

The Publicity Dept at Paddington love your proposal but the Directors wonder what you have in mind to allay the old rough riding ghosts.

dh

[The Johnster]

Churchward?

Two different series of locos (Saint & Star)

 

Keith

 

And Urie'd provided the LSWR with the S15s, which lasted nearly to the end of steam and were arguably the best mixed traffic locos in the country when they were built.  The King Arthurs, by no means bad engines, were based on them.

[rockershovel]

The comment about 4-4-0s having gone out of fashion long before the 'Schools' were introduced made me ponder about a post-war foray from Swindon....

 

Not quite a 'County'!

 

gwr hawksworth borough 1.jpg

Rutland? Huntingdonshire? Soke of Peterborough? Or for a Western feel, Lundy Island? Edited September 18, 2018 by rockershovel

[runs as required]

 Really the North East should have gone on to operate as a North Eastern Company much like GW did. Grouping could have been the big six, with NER, a Scottish Company and a London and Eastern Railway company. However, I think the North East with freight volumes and income was put into LNER to carry the other systems that simply didn't have the volume or cash flow that it had.

Just read this.

It was actually the collapse of NER coal and freight revenues from the 1926 Miners Strike on right through the Great Depression (remember the Jarrow March was not until 1936) that dragged the LNER into penury. Not until the drums of war beat through Vickers-Armstrongs works along the Tyne in 1938 did freight revive, though on a war footiing.

Had the GNR and GE been free, they too, like Walker's 'Southern Electric' might have 'pulled out a plum' in actually leading the vast interwar growth of north and east London's suburbs. Instead the LNER prolonged the smoky hell of pre-grouping 0-6-2s and 'workmens' quadarts until the late 1940s

 

There was an interesting discussion in Backtrack some years ago about the LMS simply being too big to manage until Stanier and President Sir Josiah Stamp eventually got a grip on the sprawling muddle. The argument was that the Midland and the GCR should have been one company and Scotland a single entity also.

But surely the big chance in 1919 for a unified Reichsbahn style nationalisation was missed by Geddes.

dh

[The Black Hat]

Just read this.

It was actually the collapse of NER coal and freight revenues from the 1926 Miners Strike on right through the Great Depression (remember the Jarrow March was not until 1936) that dragged the LNER into penury. Not until the drums of war beat through Vickers-Armstrongs works along the Tyne in 1938 did freight revive, though on a war footiing.

Had the GNR and GE been free, they too, like Walker's 'Southern Electric' might have 'pulled out a plum' in actually leading the vast interwar growth of north and east London's suburbs. Instead the LNER prolonged the smoky hell of pre-grouping 0-6-2s and 'workmens' quadarts until the late 1940s

 

I was under the impression that the only area of the LNER never to post a loss during the companies whole operation was the NER area, whereas the rest of them at some point - did.  

[Corbs]

More musings, this time Hawksworth picking up from Churchward on large mixed traffic 2-8-0s.

The 4710 class.

 

[PhilJ W]

The original intention on grouping was to have five companies, the 'big four' plus a separate company for Scotland until it was realised that such a company would not be financially viable. Of the companies that made up the LNER the GER was the most efficient considering it had very few mineral sources or industry in its area. In fact the GER railway posed a financial problem in a surprising way, part of the grouping agreement was that wages would be set at the highest rates (for the grade) of each group. The GER generally paid the highest rates, as much as 10% more than some of the other LNER companies. The cost of bringing the wage rates into line would have affected some of the lines in Scotland in particular.

[runs as required]

Reply to  Black Hat and Phil transferred as in Edit 2 below

Ought all this (interesting) stuff to be on another thread?

dh

Edit 1:

Good suggestion below Corbs - though I see the last post there is a spectacular Corb amalgamated GCR/GWR 57xx pannier  Imaginary loco !

Edit 2

Content of this post removed to Imaginary Boardrooms

Edited September 18, 2018 by runs as required

[Corbs]

'Imaginary Boardrooms' perhaps?

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128471-imaginary-boardrooms/?hl=%2Bimaginary+%2Bboardrooms

[Corbs]

You could give them relevant Cricketing Minor Counties names

County of Berkshire, County of Cheshire, County of Cornwall, County of Devon  County of Dorset,  County of Herefordshire,  County of Shropshire, County of Wiltshire

The Publicity Dept at Paddington love your proposal but the Directors wonder what you have in mind to allay the old rough riding ghosts.

dh

Ahhaa! Well as grab handles in the cab may not be favourable with footplate crews, how about building them as inside cylinder locos instead?

 

[The Johnster]

You could give them relevant Cricketing Minor Counties names

County of Berkshire, County of Cheshire, County of Cornwall, County of Devon  County of Dorset,  County of Herefordshire,  County of Shropshire, County of Wiltshire

The Publicity Dept at Paddington love your proposal but the Directors wonder what you have in mind to allay the old rough riding ghosts.

dh

 

A longer driving wheel axle spacing might have helped.

 

Not sure about the tender, either; a 3.500 gallon might be more suitable for the secondary main line axle weight restricted work these engines might have done.  Hawksworth could have drawn up a new slab sided one that might have found it's way into later use with 43xx, Manors, and 2251s.

Edited September 18, 2018 by The Johnster

[runs as required]

A longer driving wheel axle spacing might have helped......

Maybe a prairie 2-6-0 wheel arrangement, external walschearts and cylinders perhaps? 

[D9020 Nimbus]

Always thought Geddes wanted a unified railway (with himself in charge!) but the Government of the day realised that they couldn't get it through parliament.

[Corbs]

Always thought Geddes wanted a unified railway (with himself in charge!) but the Government of the day realised that they couldn't get it through parliament.

over on this thread mate

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128471-imaginary-boardrooms/page-2

[Corbs]

A longer driving wheel axle spacing might have helped.

 

Not sure about the tender, either; a 3.500 gallon might be more suitable for the secondary main line axle weight restricted work these engines might have done.  Hawksworth could have drawn up a new slab sided one that might have found it's way into later use with 43xx, Manors, and 2251s.

So maybe if we extend the driving wheel axle spacing (inclined inside cylinders perhaps?) and if ol' Fred could make us a 2,500gal tender in his style, perhaps this is what it could look like...

I think this one looks better proportioned!

[relaxinghobby]

Some of the Swindonised 4-4-0s from absorbed lines turned out looking like this, with perhaps a slightly smaller boiler. I am thinking of the Cambrian and Midland Sou Western locos

[Northroader]

Maybe give it an outside framed Bulldog bogie, (more room for the cylinders as an excuse?) It would be very like a CIE D5, but with taper boiler and GWR looks.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Northroader