Caledonian Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 I have a reprint of an absolutely fascinating 1918 article about the railway system within HM Factory Gretna. To be brief there were 80 miles of standard gauge track within the factory area, which interchanged with the Caledonian, Glasgow and South Western and North British Railways - in very simple terms the first two brought in the raw materials and the munitions were shipped out by the North British. There were also passenger services for the workforce. Rolling stock amounted to: 95 bogie paste wagons 54 covered vans 372 opens 174 nitrecake wagons 87 six-wheel coaches all hauled by 24 steam locomotives and 14 fireless locomotives The article says nothing about the origin of this impressive stock, except to describe the fireless locomotives and note that the six-wheel compartment carriages were "purchased from various railway companies". Clearly its begging to be modelled. At least one of the locos was a 1916 build Hudswell Clark 0-6-0ST now residing at the Embsay and Bolton Abbey Railway. Are there any lists of the rest? A contemporary photie of the Hudswell Clark shows it to be lined out and bearing the letters D. E. S. on the side of the tank. Any ideas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium decauville1126 Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3, 2019 Does this article also cover the narrow gauge system? If so, can you please advise where it might be found. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) Hi all, I've looked at this site in the past. For a lot of information see https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&ei=I8RuXfaoMdiS8gKsmL2gCg&q=hm+factory+gretna&oq=HM+Factory+Gretna&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l2.4746169.4751709..4754844...0.0..0.96.1320.18......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i131j0i131i10j0i10j0i22i30.c3WFPGvrIt0 Thanks Phil H Edit to add... Some information is available to download from the webnsite. https://www.devilsporridge.org.uk/ Edited September 3, 2019 by Scottish Modeller 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 It 44 minutes ago, decauville1126 said: Does this article also cover the narrow gauge system? If so, can you please advise where it might be found. Thanks. It doesn't appear to The article HM Factory Gretna's Unique Railway System was republished as a pamphlet by the Eastriggs and Gretna Heritage Trust and sold to benefit The Devil's Porridge Museum at Eastriggs. I picked up my copy while I was there but I'm sure that if you contact the museum they will be happy to oblige. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Does anyone know what part, if any, Arthur heywoods 15" gauge duffield bank locos and stock played? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, brack said: Does anyone know what part, if any, Arthur heywoods 15" gauge duffield bank locos and stock played? IHi there, I thought the stock went to Ravensglass and Eskdale? Thanks Phil H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Scottish Modeller said: IHi there, I thought the stock went to Ravensglass and Eskdale? Thanks Phil H Yes, eventually. After Sir Arthur's death in 1916 Muriel (080t, now River Irt) and Ella (060t) were requisitioned by the ministry of munitions supposedly for constructing the gretna factory. It seems bizarre that they'd put in a 15" line for this when 2' stock was much more readily available, the usual gauge for construction NG work and the gauge of half the railways they were putting in anyway. Hence I'm curious to know what exactly Heywood's locos were doing there! Edited September 3, 2019 by brack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) Furthr to the previous post: having checked Smithers' book on Heywood, The only clue is that the disposal date (from gretna) of the 15" locos tallies with the delivery date of the Barclays 2' fireless locos and the readiness of the 2' lines. The ministry had Ella and Muriel for about 1 year. There is a suggestion that some duffield bank rails came to ravenglass with them (and had been at gretna), and that the ministry mightve been persuaded to spare the locos in conjunction with a plan to reopen the eskdale iron mines. Edited September 3, 2019 by brack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, brack said: Furthr to the previous post: having checked Smithers' book on Heywood, The only clue is that the disposal date (from gretna) of the 15" locos tallies with the delivery date of the Barclays 2' fireless locos and the readiness of the 2' lines. The ministry had Ella and Muriel for about 1 year. Hi Brack, You learn something new every day! There is a pdf on the website that shows both Std and Narrow gauge on the map, but it's a bit small and not a hi-res photo. Thanks Phil H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HonestTom Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 12 hours ago, brack said: Yes, eventually. After Sir Arthur's death in 1916 Muriel (080t, now River Irt) and Ella (060t) were requisitioned by the ministry of munitions supposedly for constructing the gretna factory. It seems bizarre that they'd put in a 15" line for this when 2' stock was much more readily available, the usual gauge for construction NG work and the gauge of half the railways they were putting in anyway. Hence I'm curious to know what exactly Heywood's locos were doing there! I know Heywood was very keen to sell to the military and often had representatives over at Duffield Bank for demonstrations. I don't know if that might have anything to do with it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 6 hours ago, HonestTom said: I know Heywood was very keen to sell to the military and often had representatives over at Duffield Bank for demonstrations. I don't know if that might have anything to do with it? True, but they spent decades refusing to use 15" gauge and his theories, settling on 18" for internal lines eg. Woolwich, Chatham suakin, deptford and many other forts and I believe 2'6" was decided upon for siege railways, but when all our allies went with 2'/60cm for the trenches in ww1 we followed their lead. Heywoods attempts to convince them of the merits of 15" were 3 decades in the past by the time of his death. Youd have thought those he'd spoken to would also be out of the way by ww1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted September 5, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2019 On 03/09/2019 at 22:16, Caledonian said: The Devil's Porridge Museum at Eastriggs Yet another summer has passed at our caravan in silloth and yet another summer of taking the tourist route back from Dumfries after a day out, passing the museum and saying “we forgot to go there again” as it’s always about 18:00 when we pass! funnily enough I was driving back the other week and I had the sat nav on satellite map mode and I spotted the line from the mainline to the exchange sidings on the map, obviously you see it go beneath you as you enter eastriggs but it’s not until you see it as an ariel map view you realise how big it was, then low and behold this thread starts which made me look further into it when I got home, I assume the system used to go right the way over to longtown too looking at what you can see of remaining trackbeds etc, now severed by the M6 as a slight aside going back toward Dumfries as the line approaches Annan (heading to Gretna) before the river bridge you can see a junction heading off toward the Solway at 90 degrees to the mainline heading into what is now a sand quarry but looking at the layout of some of the remaining buildings and the trees would that have at some point been a military depot too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 5 hours ago, big jim said: as a slight aside going back toward Dumfries as the line approaches Annan (heading to Gretna) before the river bridge you can see a junction heading off toward the Solway at 90 degrees to the mainline heading into what is now a sand quarry but looking at the layout of some of the remaining buildings and the trees would that have at some point been a military depot too? Is that the narrow gauge at kirtlebridge station? There was a pre existing NG line serving brickwork and quarries, but in ww2 the mod laid a 2' line along part of the trackbed towards solway viaduct and built a depot there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted September 5, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2019 No this one is near cummertrees/powfoot hopefully the dropped pin below might work 54.984962, -3.311424 Near Dumfries and Galloway https://www.google.com/maps/place/54.984962,+-3.311424/@54.985134,-3.3101369,15z/data=!3m1!1e3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Ah, powfoot nitrocellulose factory. The whole place was riddled with lines, factories and dumps. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted September 5, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2019 wow! something else to read up on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted September 5, 2019 Author Share Posted September 5, 2019 6 hours ago, big jim said: Yet another summer has passed at our caravan in silloth and yet another summer of taking the tourist route back from Dumfries after a day out, passing the museum and saying “we forgot to go there again” as it’s always about 18:00 when we pass! Its not a huge museum but well worth a look. There's that Barclay fireless sitting outside of course even if the DPM camouflage scheme is unconvincing, and as well as the munitions factory it has some good stuff on Quintinshill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Posted September 5, 2019 Author Share Posted September 5, 2019 Here's the Hudswell Clarke I mentioned - seeming acquired new in 1916 by the Ministry of Munitions The photie has been lifted from the Devil's Porridge site and positively identified as being at the site. The tank, as I mentioned looks as if it is lined out and bears the widely spaced letters D. E. S. Any ideas? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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