HS2 under review

[The Johnster]

Domestic air transport relies on out of town airports that increase the journey time exponentially, and check in/security takes a very long time.  High Speed Rail is attractive if it can reduce city centre-city centre times, and has the advantage that the removal of the fast services from the 'traditional' lines improves their services and increases capacity as well.  The problem in the UK is that our existing rail and motorway networks are at or beyond capacity.

 

The elephant in the room is the private car.  There is clearly no way that central planners can get us to stop using these things, despite attempts to make them unattractively expensive to run, insure, or use in city centres.  They have driven planning for the last 75 years, at the expense of all forms of public transport.  Any attempt to further restrict or control their use is political suicide.  BBC News website has a feature today calling for the end of them by 2050; ain't gonna happen.  This isn't just down to petrolheads and Clarksonites, who have had their day anyway with gps speed control coming soon, it is down to you and me who think we cannot manage our lives without cars.  Actually, it's down to you; I haven't had one for a decade.

 

One can argue that the destruction of the local general merchandise element of railway freight traffic by Beeching led to the lobbying for motorways from the hauliers and the 40 foot Artic which is blamed for clogging the motorway network, but in reality it is only one of the factors.  Motorways are in reality designed for these vehicles, not private cars

 

 

 

 

 

[Phil Parker]

5 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

True, but unless the distance is great enough, all the faffing about in airports at either end rather dissipates any advantage absolute speed confers, quite aside from the time it takes to get between the airports and ones starting point/eventual destination.

 

in 2017, 39,316,000 people in the UK felt differently. And that was up on the 2016 figure by a million.  People value speed, or at least time saved. I don't like flying so prefer to go by train, but not everyone is like me.

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Firstly can we drop this obsession with Birmingham (regardless what Bill Bryson, et says). HS2 is NOT DESIGNED TO HELP LONDON TO BIRMINGHAM TRAFFIC - Birmingham merely represents a useful target to aim for in the first stage.

 

 

Rather naïve, as it clearly will and, unless priced off it a major cohort of passengers will inevitably be London commuters who consider travel as a function of time rather than distance. An increase in how far they are willing to travel has accompanied every other accelerated rail service and there's no reason to think this one will be any different.

 

The only way HS2 wouldn't "help" London to Birmingham traffic is if it didn't serve one of them.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

in 2017, 39,316,000 people in the UK felt differently. And that was up on the 2016 figure by a million.  People value speed, or at least time saved. I don't like flying so prefer to go by train, but not everyone is like me.

Doesn't mean their arithmetic was correct, though, does it.....

 

However, my post specifically related to short haul flights competing with High Speed rail across mainland Europe, not the UK which doesn't have any in domestic terms.

 

John

Edited August 22, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Bernard Lamb]

For anybody who still cannot grasp the problem on the WCML near Euston.

On Tuesday I used it.

Local up local trains are:-

09.29

09.35

09.43 Croydon

09.51

 

I was going to catch the 09.35 as it is the first off peak train.

The 09.29 was on time.

The 09.35 was indicated as running 4 minutes late due to a train breaking down in front of it at some unknown point.

It then lost another 2  minutes.

The decision was then made to let the 09.43 overtake it.

The 09.43 was on time and the 09.35 appeared at 09.48.

The journey to Euston was without trouble and they managed to find a free platform, albeit not one of the usual options.

The staff were chasing people off the train as they needed to get it out of the platform ASAP.

I imagine a lot of people were sweating that there would not be any passengers at Watford in need of assistance in boarding.

A 2 minute delay would have had the 09.51 in trouble.

I have no idea how the fast lines were running that morning. If there are any problems there the trouble soon multiplies.

Put the long distance stuff on HS2 and the local service has a chance.

If you look at even a small percentage of the residents of the new houses being built near me using the trains then a new line is vital.

While you are building a new line then why not show off what a great country you are with a super high speed line.

Or do we continue the decline of the UK?

Bernard

A new  

 

 

 

[Phil Parker]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Doesn't mean their arithmetic was correct, though, does it.....

 

London to Glasgow by train - 4 hours 29

London to Glasgow by aeroplane - 1 hour 25

 

Basically, if you can do the airport bit in under 3 hours at each end, you've saved time. I'd still go by train. I'll even pay more for the privilege but I am weird like that. 

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think that the big thing that should come out of this review is whether there are some sensible cost savings to be made. The main one would seem to be Euston - although a lot has already been spent there on land acquisition. How many passengers are going to continue through to Euston when they can get off at OOC and get Crossrail into Central London, Canary Wharf, etc.?

 

Old Oak station as currently designed is FAR too small to act as a terminus as it has too few platforms to allow trains to pause there and be serviced before returning north.

 

Remember HS2 is an InterCIty style operation and as such passengers will expect stocked buffets / food trolleys, rubbish removed, tables wiped, etc. Even with the  grater number of platforms at Euston, turnaround times will still be tight and staff undertaking these duties will need to be on the ball.

 

As a ball park a terminating InterCity service needs 10 minutes for everyone to get off, 20mins to be serviced, and a further 10 minutes for the new passengers to board.

 

Renumber HS2 is not just about running 4tph to Birmingham - WCML services from Manchester, Liverpool, Prestin and Scotland will transfer onto it at Litchfield initially, and later on Crewe

 

Now technically you could redesign Old Oak to have more platforms - but that means a grater land take including the site of the Cossrail depot etc.. plus if the line is extended to Euston later all the money spent on that is wasted.

 

Old Oak statin exists for 3 main reasons

 

(1)* Firstly, and most importantly, a place to de- train passengers should Euston be shut - e.g. fire, terrorist incident, bomb hoax etc - without it everyone would have to be sent back to Birmingham

(2) Interchange with Crossrail to relieve congestion on the Underground at Euston and provide easy access t the City of London

(3) provide interchange with local GWR services, services to Heathrow airport and promote regeneration of the area.

 

* Folk should note that until Ashford International was completed, emergency border processing facilities for Eurostar were installed at Kensington Olympia so as to allow passengers to be de-trained without sending them all the way back to Calais!

[melmerby]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

For anybody who still cannot grasp the problem on the WCML near Euston.

On Tuesday I used it.

Local up local trains are:-

09.29

09.35

09.43 Croydon

09.51

 

I was going to catch the 09.35 as it is the first off peak train.

The 09.29 was on time.

The 09.35 was indicated as running 4 minutes late due to a train breaking down in front of it at some unknown point.

It then lost another 2  minutes.

The decision was then made to let the 09.43 overtake it.

The 09.43 was on time and the 09.35 appeared at 09.48.

The journey to Euston was without trouble and they managed to find a free platform, albeit not one of the usual options.

The staff were chasing people off the train as they needed to get it out of the platform ASAP.

I imagine a lot of people were sweating that there would not be any passengers at Watford in need of assistance in boarding.

A 2 minute delay would have had the 09.51 in trouble.

 

Platform changes due to delays aren't just a problem at Euston, New Street is also running beyond it's capacity and one delayed train can trigger several platform changes once the scheduled slot is missed.

Edited August 22, 2019 by melmerby

[phil-b259]

33 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Rather naïve, as it clearly will and, unless priced off it a major cohort of passengers will inevitably be London commuters who consider travel as a function of time rather than distance. An increase in how far they are willing to travel has accompanied every other accelerated rail service and there's no reason to think this one will be any different.

 

The only way HS2 wouldn't "help" London to Birmingham traffic is if it didn't serve one of them.

 

John

 

The point is HS2 did not come about as a result of people saying 'how can we get to Birmingham faster - or even 'how can we get London to Birmingham trains off the WCML' to make more space.

 

Its important to appreciate this because whether HS2 is value for money depends enormously on what it is set up to achieve

 

If the justification for HS2 is to facilitate commuting to Birmingham then  it represents very poor value for money as the time savings are tiny - and moreover although you may be able to provide slightly more trains to the likes of Manchester using freed up paths on the WCML to London, the fact they will be no faster means their benefit is significantly reduced.

 

If however the justification for HS2 is to both provide more and faster services to the likes of Manchester then the BCR becomes a lot better. HS2 trains to Birmingham are an 'extra' to this and actually contribute relatively little to the BCR for HS2 overall (i.e. once the full Y network is in operation) - though they obviously are more important in the initial stages.

 

Why its so hard for people to understand that its the latter which drives HS2 is a mystery - its FOCUS is to remove *LONG DISTANCE services from the current WCML and having phase 1 stopping just past Birmingham is simply because it represents a useful staging post.

 

The M1 motorway, although explicitly planned as the "London to Yorkshire Motorway" was not constructed all in one go was it?  Nor was the justification for the first bit done solely because it would help London to West Midlands traffic. The justification for building the thing (and for building it as a 3 lane motorway at the outset even though traffic levels upon opening of the first stage didn't justify more than 2) was precisely because it was envisaged as sucking up traffic from the East Midlands and the North East too. The fact that  there were 3 distinct stages to construction  (which can be spotted by drivers due to the differing styles of bridge construction) made no difference to the overall justification for the ENTIRE motorway scheme.

 

 

 

*Birmingham is not really regarded as 'Long distance any more due to the way commuters are moving ever further away from London and using InterCity services to get to work in the same way as people in the 1930s used the expanding Southern Electric network to commute in to London from Brighton.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by phil-b259

[Joseph_Pestell]

39 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Old Oak station as currently designed is FAR too small to act as a terminus as it has too few platforms to allow trains to pause there and be serviced before returning north.

 

 

 

I was not suggesting that the trains should be serviced at OOC.

 

But even with servicing facilities further east, at least two new platforms would probably be needed.

[Dunsignalling]

33 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The point is HS2 did not come about as a result of people saying 'how can we get to Birmingham faster - or even 'how can we get London to Birmingham trains off the WCML' to make more space.

 

Its important to appreciate this because whether HS2 is value for money depends enormously on what it is set up to achieve

 

If the justification for HS2 is to facilitate commuting to Birmingham then  it represents very poor value for money as the time savings are tiny - and moreover although you may be able to provide slightly more trains to the likes of Manchester using freed up paths on the WCML to London, the fact they will be no faster means their benefit is significantly reduced.

 

If however the justification for HS2 is to both provide more and faster services to the likes of Manchester then the BCR becomes a lot better. HS2 trains to Birmingham are an 'extra' to this and actually contribute relatively little to the BCR for HS2 overall (i.e. once the full Y network is in operation) - though they obviously are more important in the initial stages.

 

Why its so hard for people to understand that its the latter which drives HS2 is a mystery - its FOCUS is to remove *LONG DISTANCE services from the current WCML and having phase 1 stopping just past Birmingham is simply because it represents a useful staging post.

 

The M1 motorway, although explicitly planned as the "London to Yorkshire Motorway" was not constructed all in one go was it?  Nor was the justification for the first bit done solely because it would help London to West Midlands traffic. The justification for building the thing (and for building it as a 3 lane motorway at the outset even though traffic levels upon opening of the first stage didn't justify more than 2) was precisely because it was envisaged as sucking up traffic from the East Midlands and the North East too. The fact that  there were 3 distinct stages to construction  (which can be spotted by drivers due to the differing styles of bridge construction) made no difference to the overall justification for the ENTIRE motorway scheme.

 

 

 

*Birmingham is not really regarded as 'Long distance any more due to the way commuters are moving ever further away from London and using InterCity services to get to work in the same way as people in the 1930s used the expanding Southern Electric network to commute in to London from Brighton.

 

 

I have never considered that serving London-Birmingham is the main reason for building HS2, or even all that high on the list of priorities. However, unless something is done to prevent it, seats "intended" for longer distance travellers will, in many cases be filled with commuters to/from that city to the detriment of the (alleged) target market.

 

The problem with building the London-Birmingham section first is that those customers will be the primary (only?) users of the the line until it goes further. As such, they will have to be courted at the outset, making it problematic to impose measures designed to "encourage" them back onto the WCML later. 

 

The only upside to this, until the second phase of HS2 (if any of it does go ahead) makes it a functional option for those travelling further, is that it should reduce crowding on WCML Pendolinos between Euston and New Street. 

 

John 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

As I'm only just back from a week afloat on the English Channel I'm not going to plough through all the recent posts but I see all the same arguments are there as is presentation of the real facts.

 

But what worries me is what I read in today's 'Daily Telegraph' where David Davis has expressed various views about HS2 -

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/21/hs2-colossal-waste-money-finally-have-impetus-scrap/

 

Many people no doubt still take notice of what MPs have to say and some no doubt have a good opinion of this particular chap (my own views are neutral, or rather were neutral until I read this childish, ill informed, rubbish).   if this is the sort of reaction we get from an allegedly intelligent and quite likely respected (by many people) MP I really wonder just what hope there is for any sort of reasoned reassessment or review of anything.  I don't doubt that Mr Davis can't help being ignorant when it comes to this subject but why on earth he should pretend to be otherwise I really can't understand - and of course he is not alone in that respect in the House of Commons among all of its members of whatever political hue they happen to wear.

 

It is a sorry state indeed when when a politician cannot tell the difference between line capacity and individual train loads although as somebody who spent many years dealing with such matters I suppose that I should not be surprised by such amateurish nonsense from somebody who is ignorant of the facts.  The worrying bit is that he clearly intends to remain ignorant while implying in public that he actually knows what he is talking about.  But then of course that is so often how important decisions tend to be made in the UK - by ignorant politicians who do not want to understand thh facts involved.

 

Rant mode 'off'

[RedgateModels]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

But then of course that is so often how important decisions tend to be made in the UK - by ignorant politicians who do not want to understand thh facts involved.

 

Sounds like a particular Infrastructure Maintenance Company that I can think of too .....

[phil-b259]

20 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I have never considered that Birmingham is the main reason for building HS2, or even high on the list of priorities. However, unless something is done to prevent it, seats "intended" for longer distance travellers will, in many cases be filled with commuters to/from that city to the detriment of the (alleged) target market.

 

The problem with building the London-Birmingham bit first is that those customers will be the primary (only?) users of the the line until it goes further. As such, they will have to be courted at the outset, which will make it problematic to impose measures designed to "encourage" them back onto the WCML later. 

 

The only upside to this, until HS2 becomes useful for those travelling further, is that it should reduce crowding on WCML Pendolinos between Euston and New Street. 

 

John 

 

 

Did you read the bit about services from Liverpool, Manchester, Preston and Scotland transferring* to HS2 at Litchfield?

 

These are IN Addition to the HS2 services starting from Birmingham Curzon Street (up to four an hour)

 

HS2 has the capacity to handle 18tph

 

Yes there may be some people who prefer to join services at the new Parkway station by the M42 - and yes there is the theoretical potential that they will occupy a proportion of the seats on Manchester, etc trains.

 

However this can be managed by making all trains to the north west 'pick up only' at the Parkway station and similarly a 'set down only' stop for trains to London. In such a situation passengers to / from London can use the Curzon Street to London services which diverge from HS2 north of the Parkway station so can easily call there.

 

* Please note, this does not mean you will lose direct services from current WCML destination like Milton Keynes to Manchester as additional services will be introduced having broadly the same journey times (i.e. the DfT have been very explicit that you won't get you fast train replaced by an all stations stopper - though one or two extra calls may be inserted to provide better connectivity to the likes of Rugby, Nuneaton and Tamworth)

 

Also please remember that eventually the section of HS2 south of Birmingham will also handle trains to Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle via the East Midlands leg.

Edited August 22, 2019 by phil-b259

[Dunsignalling]

33 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

Did you read the bit about services from Liverpool, Manchester, Preston and Scotland transferring* to HS2 at Litchfield?

 

These are IN Addition to the HS2 services starting from Birmingham Curzon Street (up to four an hour)

 

Yes there may be some people who prefer to join services at the new Parkway station by the M42 - and yes there is the theoretical potential that they will occupy a proportion of the seats on Manchester, etc trains.

 

However this can be managed by making all trains to the north west 'pick up only' at the Parkway station and similarly a 'set down only' stop for trains to London. In such a situation passengers to / from London can use the Curzon Street to London services which diverge from HS2 north of the Parkway station so can easily call there.

 

* Please note, this does not mean you will lose direct services from current WCML destination like Milton Keynes to Manchester as additional services will be introduced having broadly the same journey times (i.e. the DfT have been very explicit that you won't get you fast train replaced by an all stations stopper - though one or two extra calls may be inserted to provide better connectivity to the likes of Rugby, Nuneaton and Tamworth

 

Also please remember that eventually the section of HS2 south of Birmingham ill also handle trains to Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle via the East Midlands leg.

Not sure I'm reading that correctly, that Curzon Street won't actually lie on Hs2 but is a terminus for Euston-Birmingham services that wont go further or longer-distance ones that will regain HS2 via another leg of a triangle (or both?) please clarify .

 

Will that mean that when Phase 1 opens, all (or some) of the long-distance traffic to/from Euston that currently goes through Birmingham New Street will serve the M42 Parkway station instead?

 

John

Edited August 22, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[APOLLO]

Ode to HS2 !!
 

Faster than fairies, faster than witches,
Bridges and houses, hedges and ditches;
And charging along like troops in a battle,
All through the meadows the horses and cattle:
All of the sights of the hill and the plain
Fly as thick as driving rain;
And ever again, in the wink of an eye,
Painted stations whistle by.

 

Here is a child who clambers and scrambles,
All by himself and gathering brambles;
Here is a tramp who stands and gazes;
And there is the green for stringing the daisies!
Here is a cart run away in the road
Lumping along with man and load;
And here is a mill and there is a river:
Each a glimpse and gone for ever!

 

Or more likely -----

 

Oh Mr Grant Shapps what shall I do
I want to go to Birmingham
And they're taking me on to Crewe
Send me back to London as quickly as you can
Oh Mr Porter what a silly girl I am.

 

Brit15

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Not sure I'm reading that correctly, that Curzon Street won't actually lie on Hs2 but is a terminus for Euston-Birmingham services that wont go further or longer-distance ones that will regain HS2 via another leg of a triangle (or both?) please clarify .

 

Will that mean that when Phase 1 opens, all (or some) of the long-distance traffic to/from Euston that currently goes through Birmingham New Street will serve the M42 Parkway station instead?

 

John

 

Birmingham Curzon Street is a terminus station on a dedicated spur off HS1. A triangular junction with HS2 proper allows movements in both north and south directions.

 

London to Birmingham and London to the North West HS2 services will pass through a Parkway station adjacent to the NEC / Airport with both loops and through roads allowing for both stopping and non stopping service options.

 

The London to Birmingham HS2 service will then head down the spur to Curzon Street to terminate while train services from London to the North West will bypass Birmingham and join the existing WCML near Litchfield Trent Valley ( moving to Crewe under Phase 2B).

 

However the Curzon Street Terminus will not only handle trains to London - it will also act as a terminus for Birmingham to Manchester / Liverpool / Preston / Scotland services via the North West leg of HS2 plus in time trains to Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle on via the East Midlands branch of HS2.

 

Given the considerable overcrowding currently experienced on cross country services, particularly in the Birmingham - Leeds axis these extra trains will prove very useful and prove this 'its all about London - Birmingham 'as total lies.

 

HS2 will not be some sort of 'standalone network - it is fully integrated into the current rail network. What at first glance look like 'exclusive features like its own terminus station and approaches in London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds is actually more to do with the fact that the current termini are all bursting at the seams and are in no position to handle any more trains thus requiring massive expansion to cope with extra HS2 services - and the same would be true even if HS2 was being built as a 'conventional 125mph' railway....

 

All this information has been in the public domain for years.......

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by phil-b259

[locoholic]

3 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Given the considerable overcrowding currently experienced on cross country services, particularly in the Birmingham - Leeds axis these extra trains will prove very useful..

 

How can the second phase of HS2 be described as "cross-country" when it stops dead in the city in the centre of the country, with no possibility of trains carrying on to other destinations?

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, locoholic said:

How can the second phase of HS2 be described as "cross-country" when it stops dead in the city in the centre of the country, with no possibility of trains carrying on to other destinations?

So Birmingham to Leeds isn't Cross Country?

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

As I'm only just back from a week afloat on the English Channel I'm not going to plough through all the recent posts but I see all the same arguments are there as is presentation of the real facts.

 

But what worries me is what I read in today's 'Daily Telegraph' where David Davis has expressed various views about HS2 -

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/21/hs2-colossal-waste-money-finally-have-impetus-scrap/

 

Many people no doubt still take notice of what MPs have to say and some no doubt have a good opinion of this particular chap (my own views are neutral, or rather were neutral until I read this childish, ill informed, rubbish).   if this is the sort of reaction we get from an allegedly intelligent and quite likely respected (by many people) MP I really wonder just what hope there is for any sort of reasoned reassessment or review of anything.  I don't doubt that Mr Davis can't help being ignorant when it comes to this subject but why on earth he should pretend to be otherwise I really can't understand - and of course he is not alone in that respect in the House of Commons among all of its members of whatever political hue they happen to wear.

 

It is a sorry state indeed when when a politician cannot tell the difference between line capacity and individual train loads although as somebody who spent many years dealing with such matters I suppose that I should not be surprised by such amateurish nonsense from somebody who is ignorant of the facts.  The worrying bit is that he clearly intends to remain ignorant while implying in public that he actually knows what he is talking about.  But then of course that is so often how important decisions tend to be made in the UK - by ignorant politicians who do not want to understand thh facts involved.

 

Rant mode 'off'

Since when has David Davis said anything sensible?

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I have never considered that serving London-Birmingham is the main reason for building HS2, or even all that high on the list of priorities. However, unless something is done to prevent it, seats "intended" for longer distance travellers will, in many cases be filled with commuters to/from that city to the detriment of the (alleged) target market.

 

The problem with building the London-Birmingham section first is that those customers will be the primary (only?) users of the the line until it goes further. As such, they will have to be courted at the outset, making it problematic to impose measures designed to "encourage" them back onto the WCML later. 

 

The only upside to this, until the second phase of HS2 (if any of it does go ahead) makes it a functional option for those travelling further, is that it should reduce crowding on WCML Pendolinos between Euston and New Street. 

 

John 

 

As the southern section is the busiest and most congested part of the WCML, the corresponding section of HS2 has to be built first; If the route from Liverpool and Manchester to say Rugby was the initial phase, and had the anticipated effect of increasing loadings and therefore train frequency, where would these trains go ? And as explained elsewhere, just because London-Birmingham is being built first does not mean that only London/Birmingham trains will use it ! This latter point is something that the HS2 Publicity Department should be shouting from the rooftops, along with the capacity issue.

 

[caradoc]

9 minutes ago, locoholic said:

How can the second phase of HS2 be described as "cross-country" when it stops dead in the city in the centre of the country, with no possibility of trains carrying on to other destinations?

 

Do you not believe then that trains on HS2 (either Phase 1 or 2) will continue to destinations on existing lines, eg Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow ?

[phil-b259]

14 minutes ago, locoholic said:

How can the second phase of HS2 be described as "cross-country" when it stops dead in the city in the centre of the country, with no possibility of trains carrying on to other destinations?

 

Because HS2 will also connect with the ECML

 

Last time I looked Birmingham - Sheffield (Midland) York and Newcastle trains were known as 'cross country services.

 

You like many others are choosing to ignore the fact that HS2 will be connected to the existing rail network at:-

 

The WCML at Litchfield Trent Valley

The WCML at Crewe

The WCML at Wigan

The MML at Sheffield (south)

The MML at Sheffield (North)

The ECML Church Fenton

 

These are in ADDITION to the city centre HS2 stations of London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds - plus the intermediate stations at Birmingham Parkway, East Midlands Parkway and Manchester Airport

 

These allow for many services to be provided to destinations many miles away from HS2 proper (even more come into play if a fleet of HS2 bi-modes is eventually procured) - just as the French have been doing for decades with their TGVs - which initially spent more time running on the classic network than they did on the Paris to Lyon LGV

 

Personally I would have added a connection at Birmingham so that services from the likes of Bristol could gain access to HS2 in the Washford Heath area and another pair to allow trains to loop via Derby or terminate at Nottingham - however as these routes lack overhead electrification then I guess there is a certain amount of logic n leaving them out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by phil-b259

[melmerby]

19 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

However the Curzon Street Terminus will not only handle trains to London - it will also act as a terminus for Birmingham to Manchester / Liverpool / Preston / Scotland services via the North West leg of HS2 plus in time trains to Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle on via the East Midlands branch of HS2.

 

 

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

Personally I would have added a connection at Birmingham so that services from the likes of Bristol could gain access to HS2 in the Washford Heath area and another pair to allow trains to loop via Derby or terminate at Nottingham - however as these routes lack overhead electrification then I guess there is a certain amount of logic n leaving them out.

 

There is always the future possibilty of making a link between the spur to Curzon Street and the conventional lines to the East of New Street.

 

Electrification from Bromsgrove onto Worcester and then Bristol would be a sensible option.

[phil-b259]

30 minutes ago, locoholic said:

How can the second phase of HS2 be described as "cross-country" when it stops dead in the city in the centre of the country, with no possibility of trains carrying on to other destinations?

 

You are also conveniently forgetting that HS2 is an entire network NOT JUST A LONDON  TO BIRMINGHAM LINE. As with the "London to Yorkshire" Motorway in the 1960s it is necessary to undertake construction in stages, and like the motorway HS2 starts with the bit most in need of relief.

 

Far too many of the critical articles in the press are obsessed about phase one and cannot see, to use a saying, "the sum is grater than the sum of its parts" In other words the BCR of the WHOLE PROJECT is far better than each individual bit and HS2 needs to be judged on that basis - not because it makes it a tiny bit faster to get to Birmingham!

Edited August 22, 2019 by phil-b259