A quick poll - offensive or not?

[Reorte]

Whether there's any outrage or anger depends so much on context that you can't sensibly draw up any set of rules (and boy do people love appealing to a set of rules rather than having to make a decision themselves). So I'll get mildly annoyed if, say, the news keeps talking about toy trains and every media portrayal is like that (if some are, some aren't then I'll just roll my eyes) but not think anything at all about it if I go into the pub and someone says "Been playing with you toy trains again?" (if it's said in good humour).

[Nearholmer]

We all know full-well that the past is another country, the only problem being that there seem to be a steady few people who do genuinely want to live in it, but can’t catch a Vickers Viscount, or a Castle Lines Steamship, to get there, so spend their time trying to recreate it in the present, like Brits trying to recreate Camberley on the Costa del Sol.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

We all know full-well that the past is another country, the only problem being that there seem to be a steady few people who do genuinely want to live in it, but can’t catch a Vickers Viscount, or a Castle Lines Steamship, to get there, so spend their time trying to recreate it in the present, like Brits trying to recreate Camberley on the Costa del Sol.

 

Why's that a problem, or at least any more of a problem than people who genuinely want to live in some vision of the future? Both are cases of "not keen on how things are now, want to change them to be a bit closer to how I'd prefer," yet for some reason pushing for the latter seems to attract praise and the former criticism, beyond simply "what you want contradicts what I want."

 

There's this rather misplaced idea that one's "progress" and one isn't, but my definition of "progress" is simply anything that makes the world a bit more of a place you want to live in, which boils down to anything that makes you happier.

[Nearholmer]

I can’t speak for anyone else, but the reason I tend to find “pastoholics” a tad hard to take is that they wear deeply rose-tinted goggles, and always seem to want to get to a place which is their own, very personal corner of the past, usually when they were young, hopeful, and not burdened by too many responsibilities.

 

Some futureholics can be just as hard to take, having a tendency to see the positives in every technological advance, without spotting the potential for painful social disruption.

 

In both cases the real problem is the tendency that a few people have to take an extreme view, rather than see that every situation and every time contains a complicated middle of positives and negatives, and in the case of the future, complete imponderables.

 

[Reorte]

My view of taking a rose-tinted look at it is if you're going to recreate the past there's no point in recreating the rubbish bits. Even if you're talking more of getting into a time machine of course people will concentrate on the positives, it doesn't necessarily mean they're not aware of the downsides. Maybe my view is slightly different because it's not my direct personal situation that gets me down. That said on the "burdened by responsibilities" front I do think there's something to be said about the modern world being more stressful, even if it's much easier practically speaking.

[jjb1970]

I tend to think that life and the world to a large extent reflect the views and positions of individuals. Optimists and people with a passion for technology will tend to see the future as bright. Easy going and tolerant people tend to find an easy going world, angry people find plenty to be angry about. Unemployed people who once had good jobs in heavy industry can entirely legitimately look on the past as a better place 

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I tend to think that life and the world to a large extent reflect the views and positions of individuals. Optimists and people with a passion for technology will tend to see the future as bright. Easy going and tolerant people tend to find an easy going world, angry people find plenty to be angry about. Unemployed people who once had good jobs in heavy industry can entirely legitimately look on the past as a better place 

 

What's weird is that I used to have a passion for technology - I was a pretty nerdy kid, it was only when computerised things started becoming dominant in day to day life that I started to find whilst I liked and found the technology interesting for its own sake, as a hobby, I found the implementation of it distinctly unappealing.

 

As for easy going or angry? Well I seem to spend a lot of the time feeling angry and depressed but on the other hand I can get immense positive feelings when my surroundings are just how I like them to be. And when I've had a few drinks I end up considerably less angry and depressed - which is my underlying personality and which is how I've reacted to the world around me?

 

Considering I am usually a miserable so-and-so though I do find it rather amusing that my blood group is B+.

[woodenhead]

 

34 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I can’t speak for anyone else, but the reason I tend to find “pastoholics” a tad hard to take is that they wear deeply rose-tinted goggles, and always seem to want to get to a place which is their own, very personal corner of the past, usually when they were young, hopeful, and not burdened by too many responsibilities.

 

Some futureholics can be just as hard to take, having a tendency to see the positives in every technological advance, without spotting the potential for painful social disruption.

 

In both cases the real problem is the tendency that a few people have to take an extreme view, rather than see that every situation and every time contains a complicated middle of positives and negatives, and in the case of the future, complete imponderables.

 

 

Pastaholics - I like that.

 

Woodhead forums are full of them, how many times I have seen 'it's a crying shame', 'shouldn't have closed it' and wanting back what is long gone.  They just want to see old architecture and 76s trunding across the Pennines hauling MGR wagons or loose coupled minerals.  Luckily there are enough people on their to look back on the images as a memory of their past and understand it really was a different climate when the line closed, maybe things would be different now but equally maybe not.

 

I have only snippets of my past in my head, I have never retained memories except for one's that I could use to constantly punish myself for bad decisions or self loathing - a bit of therapy has removed those negative memories too so now the past for me is something that i don't focus on and I live in the present for better or worse.

[Nearholmer]

Pastaholics are people who can’t go a day without spaghetti. 

 

It’s the pastoholics that worry me.

[wombatofludham]

I'm of the generation that Sir Clive Sinclair promised would become a new Roman Patrician class as droids and robots did all the horrible jobs for us whilst we concentrated on creating art, literature, and finding 1000 ways to use peeled grapes in new ways.  Strange to relate of those of us in the sixth form class of 1981 at a certain school in Rugeley now long gone, over half of us got to retire or move into more leisurely occupations before the age of 50, seemingly in line with Sir Clive's futureology.

 

Unfortunately, it wasn't the tech that allowed it, it was our own confidence to shape our own lives which by and large having a good education creates.  Which is the whole point.  Where technology has come about it is the way it is implemented by humans that causes societal problems.  It wasn't technology that killed off heavy industry in the UK, steel making, ship building and the like still take place.  In other countries.  That was an economic-political decision by people and a sector of society, not technology.  That's why I'm not worried by technology because the tech itself will only adversely impact on society if society allows it to happen.  I can foresee huge social problems caused by family disintegration bought about by over use of smart phones and other devices thanks to people of all ages constantly being glued to them and not actually talking to each other or interacting face to face.  It's already happening, and thankfully some people are already trying to do something about it.  But that's a people problem, not a tech problem.  I manage to use my smartphone appropriately and still interact socially and value the technology.  That's what we need, not a blanket downer on new tech.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Pastaholics are people who can’t go a day without spaghetti. 

 

It’s the pastoholics that worry me.

I realised my faux pas after posting but thought I would leave it to be picked out 

 

My kids are pastaholics

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

 

Woodhead forums are full of them, how many times I have seen 'it's a crying shame', 'shouldn't have closed it' and wanting back what is long gone.  They just want to see old architecture and 76s trunding across the Pennines hauling MGR wagons or loose coupled minerals.  Luckily there are enough people on their to look back on the images as a memory of their past and understand it really was a different climate when the line closed, maybe things would be different now but equally maybe not.

 

There are a couple of slightly different things going on there I think - it's possible to say that you'd rather be back then whilst acknowledging that it simply wouldn't work any more. Disliking the way things are doesn't necessarily preclude knowing why they are the way they are. There are a lot of railways I'd like to see back and I find it a bit sad that there's no case for them - I can agree with the sentiment for anyone wanting them reopened whilst shaking my head at them campaigning to do so (and occasionally they're right I suppose, wouldn't have the Borders line otherwise I guess).

[woodenhead]

9 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

There are a couple of slightly different things going on there I think - it's possible to say that you'd rather be back then whilst acknowledging that it simply wouldn't work any more. Disliking the way things are doesn't necessarily preclude knowing why they are the way they are. There are a lot of railways I'd like to see back and I find it a bit sad that there's no case for them - I can agree with the sentiment for anyone wanting them reopened whilst shaking my head at them campaigning to do so (and occasionally they're right I suppose, wouldn't have the Borders line otherwise I guess).

For some it is not the re-opening/rebuilding like for example the borders railway or the line out of Nottingham - it is a real unhappiness that the line shut somehow imagining that there would still be coal trains scuttling across the Pennines.

 

But we're getting away from being offended by anything.......

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

For some it is not the re-opening/rebuilding like for example the borders railway or the line out of Nottingham - it is a real unhappiness that the line shut somehow imagining that there would still be coal trains scuttling across the Pennines.

 

I view the real unhappiness and imagining that there would still be the coal trains there as two different, albeit related, things - you can understand why the changes have happened, accept that high levels of coal use had to come to an end and still be very unhappy about how things are now. And that unhappiness probably is very genuine and shouldn't be sneered at.

[woodenhead]

58 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

I view the real unhappiness and imagining that there would still be the coal trains there as two different, albeit related, things - you can understand why the changes have happened, accept that high levels of coal use had to come to an end and still be very unhappy about how things are now. And that unhappiness probably is very genuine and shouldn't be sneered at.

Except when it is repeated ad nauseum.

 

[Reorte]

21 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Except when it is repeated ad nauseum.

 

 

No, not then either. Negative opinions are just as valid as positive ones, do you say the same about people who keep saying how great something is? Anything that makes a difference to your happiness is a valid thing to keep going on about, either positive or negative.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Reorte

[Mallard60022]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

For some it is not the re-opening/rebuilding like for example the borders railway or the line out of Nottingham - it is a real unhappiness that the line shut somehow imagining that there would still be coal trains scuttling across the Pennines.

 

But we're getting away from being offended by anything.......

…..and so, if I may just trundle slightly sideways from Tourettes and ask about the use of obscence language in public or on a public forum of some sort? If the answer is yes then I will and if the answer is no then I will. The link is in the use of expletives as many Tourettes persons shout out 'interesting' words, and it does tend to be just words not phrases. 

My point is that I think the use of certain words that I would never use seems to be 'acceptable' to many these days and they get really narky if you suggest they may like to find a better word to use in certain company, live or digital.  

I take part in a Footy Forum which is supposedly one where sensible discussion and friendly banter is taking place and it is mainly inhabited with great and humorous members. It is Moderated fairly well but many posters though, use f##k, s##t, wan##r and sometimes even more crude terms throughout their (sadly often illiterate and comical) statements. Pr##k is another fave when pointing out to someone that they don't agree. If you or a Mod mention ever so nicely that maybe they should perhaps not call someone a huge pr##k and a total arsewipe wan##r and just say " I don't actually agree with that point matey", you get a load of snowflake, Soppy Liberal and if you don't like it, f##k off responses. There are many who actually go to the match with their kids, don't mind standing amongst the knuckle-draggers and use the most foul language as do their kids and then say on the Forum tat they never f#####g swear 'outside' and never bl##dy let their kids swear at home! Don't quite get that myself! Fortunately they actually go away (or are blocked) as they think the thread is soft as s##t, so are the Mods and other participants. 

So, has foul language use in open speech become more ' acceptable' for some and why? Maybe I should ask these people if they suffer with Tourettes?

P

Edited August 21, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Torper]

The old days.....  A lot was pretty awful back in the 50s and 60s, but a lot wasn't.  I don't think people were as selfish then as they are now, and by and large people had better social manners.  There was more community spirit.  There were some terrible slums but if you were poor you'd probably get decent quality (council) housing without the constant anxiety of being thrown out at the landlord's whim after six months and you'd probably be able to afford the rent.  Not many families had to live in bed and breakfast accommodation - indeed, in the 1960s homelessness was so rare that people were predicting its virtual disappearance in the 1970s.  If you got a job and did all right at it you probably had a job for life if you wanted that.  Obviously medicine has advanced considerably since then, but at least if you needed to see a doctor back then you didn't have to wait for weeks and you could be assured of a hospital bed if you needed one (which you might well because almost everyone smoked).  Family life was perhaps more cohesive - people ate together, kids didn't rush off upstairs to eat in their rooms, and if you had a friend it would be someone you'd met and liked in person.  Stress levels were much less, and people tended to live more within their means then than they do now - there wasn't the crushing weight of debt which causes so much distress today.  Students could leave university without at least £27k worth of debt hanging over them before they'd even started work.  People weren't perhaps as materialistic, probably because there wasn't so much to be materialistic about.  Drugs were available, but nothing like the situation that exists now and has ruined so many lives.  And as for the music.......

 

So yes - in some ways, the good old days.

 

DT

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Torper

[Colin_McLeod]

Who gets this award:

[Peter Kazmierczak]

The past was good if you had the time and money to be able to enjoy it.

 

As an example. How many railway photographers from the days of steam were "working class"? One drove a Bently around the hills of Somerset, another was a Bishop of a northern city, another a headmaster of a grammar school.

 

 

[Reorte]

7 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

The past was good if you had the time and money to be able to enjoy it.

 

As an example. How many railway photographers from the days of steam were "working class"? One drove a Bently around the hills of Somerset, another was a Bishop of a northern city, another a headmaster of a grammar school.

 

The photographers were the ones who have left us the photos, and could get further afield, but they weren't the only ones looking at trains.

[hayfield]

13 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

The past was good if you had the time and money to be able to enjoy it.

 

As an example. How many railway photographers from the days of steam were "working class"? One drove a Bently around the hills of Somerset, another was a Bishop of a northern city, another a headmaster of a grammar school.

 

 

 

I came from a very working class background, lot's of things I wanted my parents could not afford to provide. I still had an enjoyable childhood. More importantly what they did give me was a set of values which have set me in good stead for my life. I accept for some this was not the case, whether they came from poor or rich backgrounds

 

Somethings were far better in the past, other things are far better now.

[wombatofludham]

Just for balance, in the late 60s and early 70s my late father was a parish councillor and regularly saw his workmates' kids off our estate causing vandalism - yes it existed back then - and when challenged their parents would deny flatly it was their spawn causing the problem.  This was the same spawn who would smoke on the back seats of our school bus, singing football chants like "who the f*****g hell's Leeds" (or whoever were at the top of the football charts or whatever they are called) if they weren't bunking off school.  When in school they were disruptive and even violent to their teachers.  

Some of the adults were no better.  One night coming back from the chip shop with my dad he met a group of his workmates, bevvied up, going to overturn a farmhand's caravan who a local schoolgirl had said had asked her to "do things".  It was the first time I ever heard my dad use "work language" which is why it stays in my memory, as he tore into them and said they should leave it to the police to sort out.  Fortunately he was also their union shop steward so they did follow his robust advice, fortunately because as it turns out, the girl made it all up.

Some things we associate with the present were very much part of life when I was growing up.  The one thing I will say has changed is the sense of common community which came about when everyone was in the "same boat" socially and materially.  Whilst not everyone was part of the community, there was a greater sense of community identity.  That said, here in Wales it still largely exists where I live if you are willing to engage and join in.

 

But no, the past wasn't as perfect as some think and it wasn't just confined to the kind of estate I grew up on either, I saw it elsewhere.  Certain behavioural standards are worse today, and bad language is one highly visible case in point, but rudeness, vandalism and anti social behaviour were as much a part of my growing up experiences in the 70s as they are today.

[Colin_McLeod]

29 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

......... were as much a part of my growing up experiences in the 70s as they are today.

 

I was nodding in agreement with everything you wrote, but the shock was in the last sentence that you grew up in the 70s.  You could just have easily been describing the 50s (as I had thought) when I grew up.

 

Time flies!!

 

 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, wombatofludham said:

Just for balance, in the late 60s and early 70s my late father was a parish councillor and regularly saw his workmates' kids off our estate causing vandalism - yes it existed back then - and when challenged their parents would deny flatly it was their spawn causing the problem.  This was the same spawn who would smoke on the back seats of our school bus, singing football chants like "who the f*****g hell's Leeds" (or whoever were at the top of the football charts or whatever they are called) if they weren't bunking off school.  When in school they were disruptive and even violent to their teachers.  

Some of the adults were no better.  One night coming back from the chip shop with my dad he met a group of his workmates, bevvied up, going to overturn a farmhand's caravan who a local schoolgirl had said had asked her to "do things".  It was the first time I ever heard my dad use "work language" which is why it stays in my memory, as he tore into them and said they should leave it to the police to sort out.  Fortunately he was also their union shop steward so they did follow his robust advice, fortunately because as it turns out, the girl made it all up.

Some things we associate with the present were very much part of life when I was growing up.  The one thing I will say has changed is the sense of common community which came about when everyone was in the "same boat" socially and materially.  Whilst not everyone was part of the community, there was a greater sense of community identity.  That said, here in Wales it still largely exists where I live if you are willing to engage and join in.

 

But no, the past wasn't as perfect as some think and it wasn't just confined to the kind of estate I grew up on either, I saw it elsewhere.  Certain behavioural standards are worse today, and bad language is one highly visible case in point, but rudeness, vandalism and anti social behaviour were as much a part of my growing up experiences in the 70s as they are today.

 

 

Within  three or four miles from the village I grew up in was an estate, built to house east end families, when I was very young it had a lot of teddy boys causing trouble, thankfully most on the estate were thankful of decent housing and were law abiding friendly folk (in later years there was a good supply of girlfriends from the estate and the trouble diminished to some extent), thankfully the trouble makers kept away from our village.

 

Whatever time period past or present you could always find troublesome folk, which is as bad or even in some cases worse now

 

Looking at the village I grew up in, children now whilst might have more material possessions, but have far less freedom. We could play out in the streets or go on our own to the parks. Traffic today stops this plus the parks for children are more dangerous. Neighbours also looked out for each others children.