BR diesel liveries 1950s-60s

[Nearholmer]

I think that must be a rebuild/overhaul shot, rather than “as built”, because that loco was originally numbered in the 11xxx series; does it have a date?

 

Electrification flashes too? Is this when it was moved to Wigan in 1966?

 

Did these locos go back to Hunslet for “warranty work”, or was Hunslet a contracted overhauled?

Edited July 24, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Michael Edge]

I'm not sure when it was taken but it's in the Hunslet colour slides collection. Don Townsley would be better able to answer your last question.

[Martin S-C]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

Lighting conduit painted orange on this one.

 

Something else that nobody seems to have noticed, both these Hunslet photos show locos with bright coupling rods, only the cranks are painted red.

Given the quite different grey of the lighting conduits on the earlier B/W shot of D2574 I think those would be orange as well.

I noted the coupling rod colours and the crank grey shade in the other photo but didn't mention it since it didn't seem unusual since my photo of the Heljan model shows that they seemed to have got the colours right. Unpainted rods and red cranks.

 

Out of the box:

 

And Heljan's D2578 in later guise (but how much later?)

 

Note in both cases the lighting conduit is orange and it must be on my model as well, its just been heavily weathered.

[Clive Mortimore]

8 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Given the quite different grey of the lighting conduits on the earlier B/W shot of D2574 I think those would be orange as well.

I noted the coupling rod colours and the crank grey shade in the other photo but didn't mention it since it didn't seem unusual since my photo of the Heljan model shows that they seemed to have got the colours right. Unpainted rods and red cranks.

 

Out of the box:

 

And Heljan's D2578 in later guise (but how much later?)

 

Note in both cases the lighting conduit is orange and it must be on my model as well, its just been heavily weathered.

Hi Martin

 

The livery in the second photo represents a loco running some time after 1960, up to when they were withdrawn.

 

It appears Hunslet outshopped batches 1(small cab), 2 (small cab, detail differences on the engine room roof) and 3 (large cab with sqaure corners to windows) with red radiators. When they were repainted with wasp stripes some retained them and some were repainted yellow. A colour photo of the loco someone wishes to model is the only way of being correct. Without one then take your pick, until someone else shows you a colour photo.

 

Batch 4 (Large cab with rounded corners to windows) without getting my shunter books out had yellow radiators as they were delivered with wasp stripes.

 

Heljan have done their research very well on this model.

[Rugd1022]

14 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

 

Im not sure whether D7033 was painted at Derby or repainted elsewhere and taken there for demonstration/publicity purposes. 

 

It was painted at Swindon, there are some official photos of it outside A Shop in its gleaming new blue and yellow livery in a book somewhere. All of the hydraulics had official portraits taken when newly overhauled or completely repainted at Swindon 

[Martin S-C]

3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Martin

 

The livery in the second photo represents a loco running some time after 1960, up to when they were withdrawn.

 

It appears Hunslet outshopped batches 1(small cab), 2 (small cab, detail differences on the engine room roof) and 3 (large cab with sqaure corners to windows) with red radiators. When they were repainted with wasp stripes some retained them and some were repainted yellow. A colour photo of the loco someone wishes to model is the only way of being correct. Without one then take your pick, until someone else shows you a colour photo.

 

Batch 4 (Large cab with rounded corners to windows) without getting my shunter books out had yellow radiators as they were delivered with wasp stripes.

 

Heljan have done their research very well on this model.

Thanks for that Clive, all useful stuff.

I'm not a big customer for post nationalisation models and my interest dips to absolute zero when BR blue comes on the scene, so I often do not know what is correct and what is not, but I get the impression that Heljan are pretty good with their research. I do find the 1950s a fascinating decade on BR with all those test locos and the research going on. On the other hand though I find BR standard steam loco classes simply hideous! The BR period kettle models I own are all of pre-grouping or early grouping prototypes.

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

 On the other hand though I find BR standard steam loco classes simply hideous! The BR period kettle models I own are all of pre-grouping or early grouping prototypes.

The standard 3MT 2-6-2T though was a delight - especially in green - lovely complex valve gear.

 

But the rest, were neither here nor there.

[woodenhead]

22 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

All leadwork too, we had proper plumbers back in the day!

 

Mike.

just because it all clips together these days with rubber seals doesn't make it a less than proper job

 

But if the idiot who fitted the soil pipe in my en-suite had done a proper job then the soil pipe connection to the the back of the toilet cistern wouldn't 'slip' off once every two years leading to a little cascade down to the bathroom below and an almighty stench as the carpet dries out.

 

Back to topic - shunters look best in black or simply green with no wasp stripes.

[PenrithBeacon]

On 22/07/2019 at 13:48, Chris M said:

The yellow warning panels were supposed to be applied urgently . Most locos had them by 1964 but some class 33s still didn't have a yellow panel by 1967.

...

The union's were campaigning to have a high viz panel added to the ends of all modern traction because of the rising number of accidents trackside.

The SR was being awkward and refusing to apply the feature to their traction. BRB insisted but it took a while.

There is a file on this issue at Kew.

Regards

 

[The Johnster]

9 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

It was painted at Swindon, there are some official photos of it outside A Shop in its gleaming new blue and yellow livery in a book somewhere. All of the hydraulics had official portraits taken when newly overhauled or completely repainted at Swindon 

I was hitherto unaware that this loco was the first to be painted in the all over rail blue with full yellow ends, and had always assumed this to have been D400 or one of the D83xx class 20s.  Can't ever remember encountering a class 20 in blue with syp, but plenty of earlier green ones acquired fye.

 

I was appalled at the hideous disfigurement of fye, but you couldn't argue with the safety aspect of it.  The appalling death rate trackside was eased a little by it, but it took hi-viz to make a significant difference

[Nearholmer]

On aesthetics, as opposed to practicalities, I think that wasp-stripes on shunters, and small yellow warning panels on main-line locos both give the very dull green, and in the case of shunters even duller black, a nice "lift" that makes for a better whole. A matter of taste, of course.

[Martin S-C]

One wonders what the trackside accident rate was in steam days. I'd imagine it was a lot worse due to a lot more traffic, probably worse visibility and a lot more labour working on the lines. I'm sure the Big Four kept records of all incidents but probably the push towards safety that began in the 60s was a feature of the greater social conscience and value placed on life of more modern times. I think a parallel can be drawn between the mass slaughter in WW2 against the obsession with keeping war casualties now to the absolute minimum.

[Nearholmer]

There is a researcher working through records at the NRM etc trying to tie-down historical death and serious injury rates for railway workers. I think she has an ever-evolving website about the topic, possibly as a sub-site of York Uni.

[Clive Mortimore]

Being cynical, it was cheaper to send a letter of condolence than provide safety measures. This wasn't only the railways but all industries. One of the benefits of organised trades unions was the improved working conditions which included safety at work. , I'll jump off me soap box now.

 

Back to model railways, but keeping the safety aspect in mind, how many times do you see at exhibitions really wonderful layouts were the loco slams on its brakes and crashes into the train it is going to coupled up to? And then zoom off with the train. Where the real practice is for the loco to slowly approach the train and stop short about 2 yards, that is roughly an inch in 1/76th scale. It is guided on to the train by the shunter or secondman/fireman, he is in charge at this point. He then gets down between the loco and the train and couples every thing up, the loco to the train, the brake system, the heating system etc. He then climbs out and hands over responsibilities to the train crew. The driver and guard do their test to make sure the brakes and heating are OK. I very rarely see a model railway where the loco halts short of the train then moves again and couples up followed by a time lapse before departing to infinity and beyond. it is so easy to replicate and looks like the person operating knows what they are doing.  

[Martin S-C]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Back to model railways, but keeping the safety aspect in mind, how many times do you see at exhibitions really wonderful layouts were the loco slams on its brakes and crashes into the train it is going to coupled up to? And then zoom off with the train. Where the real practice is for the loco to slowly approach the train and stop short about 2 yards, that is roughly an inch in 1/76th scale. It is guided on to the train by the shunter or secondman/fireman, he is in charge at this point. He then gets down between the loco and the train and couples every thing up, the loco to the train, the brake system, the heating system etc. He then climbs out and hands over responsibilities to the train crew. The driver and guard do their test to make sure the brakes and heating are OK. I very rarely see a model railway where the loco halts short of the train then moves again and couples up followed by a time lapse before departing to infinity and beyond. it is so easy to replicate and looks like the person operating knows what they are doing.  

I agree it annoys the heck out of me to see "crash-shunting" with the operator trying to get the train away within the 30 seconds challenge time, or something of that ilk.

It also bugs me on a layout at a show where a freight train will arrive, the operator takes the brake van off, puts it on a siding, then proceeds to shunt the whole train onto it and send it back where it came from 5 minutes later. A brake van would be propelled all the way to the stop blocks and left with its brakes firmly on, and then the outgoing train would be built up on its siding, with the assembled train rolled onto it as the last movement of making up the train. The train and loco would also be short enough so that the exit signal from the yard is in front of them. The idea of leaving a brake van near the entrance to a siding then pushing it back as wagons are added to the train is extremely unlikely practice.

As regards shunting speeds and styles, yes, Clive, I have been doing that for years and now with DCC I can run locos at really slow creep-against-buffer speeds with ease. I like to operate the coupling sound button as well while shunting, and the crew tooting the whistle in acknowledgement of the shunters hand signals. DCC with sound really shines if you are a shunting freak.

 

Ah, oops, I went off-topic.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Martin

 

It isn't off topic, if you have the loco in the right livery why not run it correctly, both go hand in hand.

 

As  DC Luddite I will admit when shunting is done properly with DCC is does look and sound good. I try my best to shut as realistic as I can, if no one is around I can make the noises otherwise I have to just pretend they are there.

[melmoth]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

There is a researcher working through records at the NRM etc trying to tie-down historical death and serious injury rates for railway workers. I think she has an ever-evolving website about the topic, possibly as a sub-site of York Uni.

 

Hi @colin.divall if you're about, do you know who this is?

[Nearholmer]

Just found it again.

 

Portsmouth, rather than York Uni.

 

http://www.railwayaccidents.port.ac.uk/

[Martin S-C]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Being cynical, it was cheaper to send a letter of condolence than provide safety measures. This wasn't only the railways but all industries. One of the benefits of organised trades unions was the improved working conditions which included safety at work. , I'll jump off me soap box now.

This is the other part of your post I didn't pick up on. While death rates were calamitous during canal and later railway construction, as well as other civil engineering projects such as bridge building and tunneling, there certainly were some conscientious employers around, even in the Victorian era. I suspect though that modern writers pick up on these cases because to the modern lay reader the wasteful approach to life is shocking, whereas at the time it wasn't; it was simply how life was. I also wonder if writers highlight such examples of philanthropic corporate behaviour to illustrate that such attitudes were not the norm. Yes, it did happen, but the fact we remark on it means it wasn't common practice.

Long service awards were also often given out - though in past centuries "long service" might mean beginning work for a company when you were a boy and retiring in your 80s. Perhaps, with my cynical hat on, such awards were again rare and companies could afford to hand them out because there were so few of them!

I think the big social change came about after the Great War. Socialism with a lower case "s" had been gaining ground since the early Victorian times and went hand-in-hand with rising education standards but the Great War caused a step change and the 1920s and 30s saw the big rise of the unions, and of slowly improving working conditions generally.

One comment I come across often on such FaceBook groups as the 19th century railways group is from people who wonder how loco crews could accept driving trains in all weathers without a cab and the answer is that they did it because it was perfectly normal. Our retrospective attitude is coloured by locomotive cabs, first of steamers and later on diesels and electrics complete with padded armchairs but one must remember that the Victorian era, like every era before it was one where it was customary to work outdoors in all weathers without much protection. Canal boat families did so, wagon drivers did, fishermen and other seafarers did, farm workers did, coach drivers did and of course railwaymen did as well, it was just how it was. The gradual increase of footplate crew protection with at first spectacle plates and later roofs and side sheets I suspect came about due to increased speed and the need to be able to sight signals at these higher speeds. It was okay to briefly stick your head out in a blizzard to check a signal ahead but at least 90% of the time you had shelter and therefore your vision was protected until you needed to check 'outside'.

[Rugd1022]

2 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

The idea of leaving a brake van near the entrance to a siding then pushing it back as wagons are added to the train is extremely unlikely practice.

 

 

 

We used to do it all the time at Willesden Brent and Acton Yard, and more recently Rugby Yard right up until the day it shut and Bardon Hill when making up stone trains there. We often had a spare pair of hands at Rugby though which helped no end, it's much easier and quicker to shunt with more men on the ground with less walking involved than there is for a single shunter working on his own .

 

Rule number one when shunting, save yourself a walk and let the Jocko do all the work!

Edited July 25, 2019 by Rugd1022

[Martin S-C]

I'm sure there are cases of it being done but I was thinking of BLT layouts at shows, and of the rulebook.

[Enterprisingwestern]

7 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

I agree it annoys the heck out of me to see "crash-shunting" with the operator trying to get the train away within the 30 seconds challenge time, or something of that ilk.

 

 

You never went to Pembroke Dock then?

The EE type 3 had the token from Tenby and had to get out, shunt and back between passenger trains, not a lot of time for the niceties of life!

 

Mike.

[Martin S-C]

But the point is that was an exception. Everyone can cite exceptions. You wouldn't expect to see crash-shunting by the daily pick up freight on a sleepy BLT, which is sadly what you tend to see too often at exhibitions. Its one thing to create a beautiful masterpiece of miniature modelling but another when its ruined by not applying enough thought to how to operate it.

/rant over. back on topic!

[The Johnster]

The speed and general enthusiasm with which shunting is carried out depends on the exact type of shunting.  Making up trains in busy marshalling yards with 3 or 4 shunters on the ground simultaneously involved is a fairly 'robust' sort of operation with a 'come on, let's get on with it' feel to it,  At the opposite end of the scale, any movement into or out of goods sheds with limited clearances in the entrance and the driver unable to see what is going on properly is done with extreme caution and at a very low speed.  Pick up shunting at small goods yards, the most common modelling situation, takes place at a speed governed by the guard's ability to walk (not run) to the locations he needs to be to throw points, or couple/uncouple.  By and large this is walking pace, though matters may be helped by the fireman getting off to throw points.

 

Moves involving passenger carrying stock must be carried out with a degree of circumspection, of course, but where buckeye couplers are being used have to be done with an amount of force as well.

 

The general principle is that the timetable must be adhered to and everybody wants to go home on time or earlier, tempered with the realisation that you don't want to go home or send anyone else home in a wooden box with brass handles...  You will not be criticised for taking your time and working safely, but you will be for asking the driver to perform unnecessary moves that waste everyone's time; shunting is a mental exercise as well as physical and sometimes dangerous work.

 

My pet bugaboo at shows is the loco which, having correctly run around it's stock, backs on to it, and, without pausing and without a care in the world, immediately pushes the stock back towards the buffer stops.  NO NO NO.  You must stop, allow the imaginary shunter to climb down from the platform, couple the loco to the stock, and for him to couple the brake and steam heating hoses, then extricate himself, then wait for the platform staff to call you back with a handsignal, so at least a minute and it is not uncommon for the brake test to be carried out at this time as well, so make that two minutes.  Then, allow time for the passengers to board and any parcels or mail to be loaded before booked departure time.

 

Some real turnaround times were pretty sharp, though.  Clarence Road, a docklands terminus in Cardiff that was intensely busy in rush hours, could, according to the 1960 WTT, turn around an auto train in 3 minutes and a loco hauled service that had to be run around and the brakes tested in 7; everybody had to be on the ball and they earned their cup of tea when it all quietened down!

[jim.snowdon]

On 25 July 2019 at 19:30, Martin S-C said:

But the point is that was an exception. Everyone can cite exceptions. You wouldn't expect to see crash-shunting by the daily pick up freight on a sleepy BLT, which is sadly what you tend to see too often at exhibitions. Its one thing to create a beautiful masterpiece of miniature modelling but another when its ruined by not applying enough thought to how to operate it.

/rant over. back on topic!

Many operators of model railways have little or no idea of how the real railway operates, or the dynamics of getting a train started and stopped. And it frequently shows.

 

Jim