BR diesel liveries 1950s-60s

[Martin S-C]

I wonder if someone has the answers to these questions, or can point me to a good book that will hold this information.

When were overhead electrification flashes introduced?

When were speed whiskers introduced on DMUs and railbuses and when were they removed?

When were half yellow warning panels introduced?

 

When were full yellow ends introduced?

 

When did red grills on some shunter classes begin to get replaced by wasp stripes?

When was blue introduced on diesels - I think it was about 1964 wasn't it?

Were there any other significant livery steps in the 50s and early 60s I haven't noted here?

Sorry for the very basic questions but I want to get a time period correct and avoid livery errors, or at least unlikely liveries.

 

Many thanks for any help.

[Rugd1022]

A few quick answers for you Martin - 

 

Half yellow warning panels were introduced in 1962.

 

Full yellow ends were introduced in 1966.

 

Corporate blue livery was introduced in late 1966 but Class 47 D1753 was given an experimental version of blue in 1964, initially with a set of large red and white BR arrow logo stickers on the cabsides but these were removed a fortnight later.

[Steamport Southport]

The electrification flashes were introduced in 1959.

 

Originally on the Great Eastern section.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited July 22, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[stewartingram]

Pedant mode - D1733 not D1753 was the guinea pig for BR blue.

 

Stewart

[Wickham Green]

Whiskers were carried by most railcars from new - and they lasted 'til painted over with greater expanses of yellow.

 

The other livery step you didn't mention in the 50s was dropping black in favour of green, of course. ( Electric Blue for electrics is Off  Topic, presumably )

[Rugd1022]

Thanks Stewart, slip of the digit methinks .

[Chris M]

The yellow warning panels were supposed to be applied urgently . Most locos had them by 1964 but some class 33s still didn't have a yellow panel by 1967.

 

Swindon didn't go to full yellow ends until a little later so there were a fairly small number of blue western region locos with yellow panels rather than full yellow end for a time.

 

If you are doing western region Warships didn't get maroon livery until 1965. Some warships went straight from green to blue. Also some green or maroon locos received a full yellow end .

[Rugd1022]

1 hour ago, Chris M said:

The yellow warning panels were supposed to be applied urgently . Most locos had them by 1964 but some class 33s still didn't have a yellow panel by 1967.

 

Swindon didn't go to full yellow ends until a little later so there were a fairly small number of blue western region locos with yellow panels rather than full yellow end for a time.

 

If you are doing western region Warships didn't get maroon livery until 1965. Some warships went straight from green to blue. Also some green or maroon locos received a full yellow end .

 

Only seven Westerns carried blue with small yellow panels, D1017 / D1030 / D1036 / D1037 / D1043 / D1047 and D1057, in the midst of this experimental period D1048 was released from Swindon in blue with full yellow ends in November 1966, the first of the class to do so. It's often mistakenly said in some books and magazine articles that the whole class carried maroon livery but this isn't so, three of them bypassed maroon and went straight from green into blue, namely D1004 / D1036 and D1037. Sixteen of the maroon Westerns also had full yellow ends applied while in this livery.

 

A total of thirty two Warships carried maroon livery. Only two Warships in green carried full yellow ends, D808 and D810.

 

Hymeks which carried blue with small yellow panels livery were D7004 / D7007 / D7010 / D7012 / D7027 / D7034 / D7036 / D7038 / D7040 / D7043 / D7046 / D7047 / D7048 / D7052 / D7056 and D7064. The first Hymek to carry blue with full yellow ends was D7067 in 1967 which had slightly different treatment to the rest where the blue met the yellow at the corners of the cabsides.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Rugd1022

[BernardTPM]

The earliest Rail Blue locomotives were the AL6 (86/0) and JB electro-diesels (73/1), both appearing in 1965, though neither initially with double arrows and both having 'throw back' aspects to their decoration.

 

The Western Region used yellow bufferbeams on their early maroon Westerns, but not on the green livery where they applied what was to become the standard yellow panel above a red bufferbeam. D1000 initially had just red buferbeams but later had a yellow panel added.

Edited July 22, 2019 by BernardTPM

[Martin S-C]

Many thanks, a great mine of info from you folks. My rolling stock collection is set in 1959 with a mix of early and late crest steamers, so now I know to avoid all yellow panels and keep the whiskers. I will probably delete most of the electrification flashes as I'm in the Welsh borders and I doubt that was relevant over there at that time.

I'm now only left wondering about wasp stripes on the ends of shunters but my gut feeling is it was after 1959. The mid 60s seem to be when the full step-change of corporate image kicked in.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Martin S-C

[hmrspaul]

8 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

 

 The mid 60s seem to be when the full step-change of corporate image kicked in.

No "seem" about it. The CI wasn't announced until 1965. Only the boxing in of writing on wagons predates the CI,, and then only by 12 months. As already mentioned by giving us your period you reveal the one problem you have is that the strict ideas on how steam locos should be painted had been lost - Black for Freight, lined Black for MT and Green for Passenger had given way to some MTs being green and even lined green and some large locos were maroon. Also the Mark 1 corridor stock began to have roundels on the side.

 

Try to get hold of a cheap copy of https://www.amazon.co.uk/Railway-Liveries-British-Steam-1948-68/dp/0711018561

 

Paul

Edited July 22, 2019 by hmrspaul

[Nearholmer]

 But, wasp stripes on shunting locos weren’t a matter of CI, they were a safety feature, and I’m certain that they predate CI.

 

I think that new-builds had wasp stripes from Autumn 1959, and they very definitely had them if built from early-1960, but it took a while for them to be added to older locos. Most seem to have been "done" by c1962, but some stragglers lasted beyond the mid-1960s without the stripes.

 

Odd shunting locos seem to have had various  "visibility things" done to them well before 1960, presumably local initiatives that led to the corporate change. Ex-GWR No.2 when it was Swindon Works shunter had what I think were white bands painted onto it, for instance.

 

And, here is another loco with what look like white bands, in 1959. 

 

 

And, a brand new loco with "upside down" wasp stripes, which look "pre-standard' in width and have no "wrap round" in Autumn 1959. There's another early photo of the loco here https://brdiesels.livejournal.com , which shows the buffer plank detail better, and says that it entered traffic in January 1960. This must be one of the very first "wasps".

 

 

I thought I was pasting links here, so apologies to the copyright holders!

 

And, a photo from early 1958, showing different white (could be yellow?) visibility improvements to 15228. https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p836482494

 

And, and, there is photo in the RCTS collection showing "11708 at St Rollox shed 21/8/57" with multiple horizontal yellow (could be white?) stripes across the bonnet front, as were also carried by the Holyhead Breakwater locos, although I always 'read' that as being because there was no room for the stripes to slope upwards.

 

The earliest photo of a loco with wasp stripes "the right way up", and with wrap-round on the bonnet, that I've found so far is D2594, in "fresh out of the box" condition, taken at Easter 1960. That loco was released to traffic on 19th January 1960.

 

I haven't found any pre-1957 photos of BR locos with visibility improvements, but Im 99% certain that they were applied to some military and industrial locos in the UK before then.

 

NOTE: I'm tweaking the detail in this post as I discover more information, but am tempted to suggest that the definitive version of wasp stripes was mandated for new builds from 1 January 1960, with existing locos to be dealt with at "the earliest opportunity".

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by Nearholmer

[John Isherwood]

7 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

The Western Region used yellow bufferbeams on their early maroon Westerns ......

 

..... and on the D9500 0-6-0DHs - but NOT warning panel yellow; it was a distinctive lemon yellow.

 

We; (the spotters with whom I spent my time); were somewhat less than convinced by this lemon yellow when seen on Westerns at Brum Snow Hill, and on D9500s at Swindon Works.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[russ p]

There were some 03s in the north east that didn't receive wasp stripes until 66/67

[stewartingram]

I can't remember which, but didn't either/both of the shunter kits - Airfix 04 & Kitmaster 08 - have mouldings to help painting wasp stripes? When were they released, 1959/60?

 

Stewart

 

(I might just have a rummage tomorrow to check my unmade ones).

Edited July 22, 2019 by stewartingram

[John Isherwood]

4 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

I can't remember which, but didn't either/both of the shunter kits - Airfix 04 & Kitmaster 08 - have mouldings to help painting wasp stripes? When were they released, 1959/60?

 

Stewart

 

(I might just have a rummage tomorrow to check my unmade ones).

 

Stewart,

 

You are certainly correct about the Airfix Drewry, but I can't be absolutely certain about the Kitmaster 350HP.

 

The latter was literally the first railway kit that I built, and I can distinctly remembering a part was missing; (the roof, I think).

 

The wait between the complaint slip was sent in and the missing part being supplied was unbearable to a (10 year-old?) schoolboy.

 

Sixty years ago? Surely it can't be so long ago?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Martin S-C]

This is all helpful, thanks. So in 1959 I can do away with wasp stripes but could maybe include one shunter with an experimental pattern. I presume grills on bonnets would be red? Like so:



Or was this a non-standard practice?

[Nearholmer]

For Kitmaster nostalgics, here are the instructions for the 350hp, saying that the livery was black or green, with no mention of wasp stripes http://www.kitmaster.org.uk/InstructionsNabShunter.htm I think this kit was introduced in 1959.

 

The Airfix Drewry 204hp loco box art always showed it with wasp stripes, I think. introduced 1961, I'm fairly sure.

 

These two kits appear to span the arrival of wasp stripes.

 

For Class 05, you need to be very careful, because some were delivered post 1959, and the 1960 ones came with stripes! Check your batches.

 

PS: D2574 was released to traffic in July 1958, so the absence of stripes is almost certainly correct.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Michael Edge]

This is how D2574 left Hunslet - doesn't appear to have a red painted radiator, although this was quite common with HE locos.

Photo from Hunslet Engine Co.

[SRman]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

This is how D2574 left Hunslet - doesn't appear to have a red painted radiator, although this was quite common with HE locos.

 

Photo from Hunslet Engine Co.

I would disagree with you there, Mike; the radiator slats look to be a distinctly different colour to the locomotive body, but very similar to the buffer beam colour.

[John Isherwood]

1 hour ago, SRman said:

I would disagree with you there, Mike; the radiator slats look to be a distinctly different colour to the locomotive body, but very similar to the buffer beam colour.

 

I'd have to agree - the radiator grille is definitely not the main body colour and has a remarkably similar tone to the bufferbeam.

 

Certainly - on that evidence - I'd paint the grille red.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Martin S-C]

Good thing it is red on my model then! Michael - do you happen to know when D2574 was built? I bought the model because I liked it but it seems some examples were built after 1959, if that's the case with D2574 I shall have to renumber her.

[russ p]

Going off topic on the photograph of 2574 , is that the worlds most complex stench pipe system on the building behind? 

[Nearholmer]

Quoting my post above: "D2574 was released to traffic in July 1958".

 

It was a Sottish engine for all of its short life, I think.

[Steamport Southport]

Talking about black diesel shunters. These were black with cycling lion until withdrawal in 1979-1981.

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_01

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20070929061555/http://www.holyheadbreakwater.com/Bw1976/

 

 

Jason