S&DJR "Bulldog" 0-6-0

[NHY 581]

3 hours ago, Ian M. said:

Picking up this old thread and possibly taking it a bit off topic. Speaking of blue vs. black liveries, were the 1922 Armstrong-Whitworth MR 4Fs delivered to the SDJR in Prussian Blue or Black? I've seen references to both and of course Bachmann produced theirs in blue. But the experts are here so I thought I could settle this once and for all.

 

Morning Ian, 

 

The Armstrongs were always black. Never blue. Delightful as Bachmann's rendition was, it was utterly spurious. 

 

The best way to create a S&D Armstrong from 00 RTR is to use Bachmann's Midland version, catalogue reg 31-883 as it has the Ramsbottom safety valves as opposed to the later Ross Pop jobs. Keeping any other amendments to a bare minimum, you'll need to ignore what will be an overly long smoke box numberplate. 

 

Removal of the Midland insignia and numbering and replacement with S&D lettering etc will provide a decent enough replica. 

 

Hope this helps. 

 

Rob. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by NHY 581

[queensquare]

1 hour ago, NHY 581 said:

 

Morning Ian, 

 

The Armstrongs were always black. Never blue. Delightful as Bachmann's rendition was, it was utterly spurious. 

 

The best way to create a S&D Armstrong from 00 RTR is to use Bachmann's Midland version, catalogue reg 31-883 as it has the Ramsbottom safety valves as opposed to the later Ross Pop jobs. Keeping any other amendments to a bare minimum, you'll need to ignore what will be an overly long smoke box numberplate. 

 

Removal of the Midland insignia and numbering and replacement with S&D lettering etc will provide a decent enough replica. 

 

Hope this helps. 

 

Rob. 

Unfortunately  Rob it’s not quite that simple as the Bachmann model also has the wrong tender. The Armstrongs, along with a large proportion of the Midland 4Fs had the Johnson style, Deeley 3500 riveted tender. My knowledge of what’s available in 4mm isn’t good enough to suggest where you could get one of these 

 

Jerry

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, queensquare said:

Unfortunately  Rob it’s not quite that simple as the Bachmann model also has the wrong tender. The Armstrongs, along with a large proportion of the Midland 4Fs had the Johnson style, Deeley 3500 riveted tender. My knowledge of what’s available in 4mm isn’t good enough to suggest where you could get one of these 

 

 

The tender on Bachmann's Midland Class 4 Goods Engine is the type which I think (without checking) were second-hand off the Schenectady moguls. I defer to Jerry's much greater knowledge but is not the principal visual difference between these and the tenders fitted to the Armstrongs, that the coal rails do not extend forward of the bulkhead?

[queensquare]

I’m away ( on the Gower) at the moment so haven’t got access to my photos but the 3500 tender fitted to the Armstrongs was very different in appearance to the Johnson 3250, other than having the Johnson like flare on the sides.

It had no beading, very prominent rivets and a completely different arrangement of handrails at the front.

 

I’ve attached a picture but will add a couple more for comparison when I’m home later in the week.

 

Jerry

 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, queensquare said:

I’m away ( on the Gower) at the moment so haven’t got access to my photos but the 3500 tender fitted to the Armstrongs was very different in appearance to the Johnson 3250, other than having the Johnson like flare on the sides.

It had no beading, very prominent rivets and a completely different arrangement of handrails at the front.

 

Bachmann model No. 3848 with a rebuilt Johnson 3,250 tender, with high bulkhead, forward of which the coal rails do not go, per photo in Summerson Vol. 4 p. 89. This type of tender was fitted to 45 Derby-built engines, along with 10 that had ex-Schenectady tenders; the remainder had new 3,500 gal tenders of the Johnson/Deeley type; this naturally included the Armstrong Whitworth batch and hence, I presume, the ones built by Armstrong Whitworth for the S&DJR. 

 

But the Bachmann model's tender is closer than the Hornby model's tender (both having done a blue 4F), the latter being the old Airfix model with its rather crude representation of an LMS standard 3,500 tender (as well as the engine being left-hand-drive).

[NHY 581]

Thanks both. 

 

Yes, I was speaking from the point of view of an easily adapted RTR model to produce something which best approaches the look of an Armstrong. This does, as Jerry rightly points out, mean it's a compromise which is more acceptable to some but not others. 

 

Looking at the image provided by Jerry above, I question whether I can accept such a compromise myself now. 

 

I aldo have a Hornby blue 4F which is kept purely as a curiosity.....and that is as much as I wish to say about that particular model ! 

 

Rob

[03060]

11 hours ago, queensquare said:

I’m away ( on the Gower) at the moment so haven’t got access to my photos but the 3500 tender fitted to the Armstrongs was very different in appearance to the Johnson 3250, other than having the Johnson like flare on the sides.

It had no beading, very prominent rivets and a completely different arrangement of handrails at the front.

 

I’ve attached a picture but will add a couple more for comparison when I’m home later in the week.

 

Jerry

 

 

Hello Jerry,

 

I've just had a look back through this thread and wondered if you would be able to reinstate the photos that you originally posted on p.1 as it looks like they were lost in the 'crash,' please, if you remember when you get back from your jollies.

 

Thanks in advance,

Regards,

Ian.