RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 6, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 6, 2019 5 hours ago, ess1uk said: Very saddened by this. i still feel safer walking along the cess than the odd time I’ve had to wait for recovery beside my car on a dual carriageway . thankfully I very rarely have to either cross lines or work in the 4 foot You're very lucky to be able to find a cess to walk in on a large part of the network! 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted July 6, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 6, 2019 On 04/07/2019 at 20:29, phil-b259 said: What does SSOWPs stand for then Safe System Of Work Planning System used by NR Maintenance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted July 6, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 6, 2019 7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: You're very lucky to be able to find a cess to walk in on a large part of the network! When I was training with the signal lineman at Saltley in the 1960s we used to ride our bikes down the cess to Bromford Bridge. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted July 6, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, 96701 said: Safe System Of Work Planning System used by NR Maintenance. I know that - as does everyone else on NR. I was merely wondering what TheSignalEngineer's take on it was - Bering in mind that his explanation of Rimini was most definitely not the official one. (note - edited to cite the right RMweb contributor) Edited July 7, 2019 by phil-b259 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phlogiston Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 On 06/07/2019 at 14:32, The Stationmaster said: You're very lucky to be able to find a cess to walk in on a large part of the network! What also surprises is the amount of old track materials one can sometimes see from the train, never taken away after engineering occupations and in some cases blocking what might otherwise be a safe walking route next to the line. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 8, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 8, 2019 29 minutes ago, Phlogiston said: What also surprises is the amount of old track materials one can sometimes see from the train, never taken away after engineering occupations and in some cases blocking what might otherwise be a safe walking route next to the line. BR wasn't great at this, but there were periodic purges. No doubt these days the traditional complexity of booking possessions and getting staff and plant on site to tidy up is further lumbered with the safe working methods we have been discussing. No-one doubts the priorities of staff safety are right, but slots and resources are much harder to find than was the case years ago. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 3 hours ago, Oldddudders said: BR wasn't great at this, but there were periodic purges. No doubt these days the traditional complexity of booking possessions and getting staff and plant on site to tidy up is further lumbered with the safe working methods we have been discussing. No-one doubts the priorities of staff safety are right, but slots and resources are much harder to find than was the case years ago. Sounds reasonable. Take any cab ride video and while its mainly bits of rail between the running lines, all sorts of detritus can be seen. Brian. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted July 8, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 8, 2019 6 hours ago, Phlogiston said: What also surprises is the amount of old track materials one can sometimes see from the train, never taken away after engineering occupations and in some cases blocking what might otherwise be a safe walking route next to the line. Here in Oz, a friend of mine took some scrap steel to the a scrap metal dealers and happened to mention that he travels by suburban train a fair bit. That led to a discussion about all the spare rail alongside the tracks. They asked if he could arrange with Vic Track to collect it. He asked me how he would go about it. I told him forget it, by the time he got safety accreditation and suitable time slots to pick it up, it wouldn't be worth the effort. Mind you the scrap dealers are Indian, so I suppose in their homeland, they would just turn up, with a group of people and take it, under the cover of darkness! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 On 06/07/2019 at 14:32, The Stationmaster said: You're very lucky to be able to find a cess to walk in on a large part of the network! Like this. right at the bottom of the access steps 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Yes, and by the time anyone comes to think of picking them up (if ever), the bags will probably have deteriorated to the point where they will split if picked up. Jim 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2019 18 hours ago, Phlogiston said: What also surprises is the amount of old track materials one can sometimes see from the train, never taken away after engineering occupations and in some cases blocking what might otherwise be a safe walking route next to the line. And on the GWML you can add to that 'leftover' electrification materials - mainly the foundation pile tubes/sections thereof which can be seen at various spots although in some cases they are rapidly being subsumed by the undergrowth. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted July 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2019 On 06/07/2019 at 23:16, phil-b259 said: I know that - as does everyone else on NR. I was merely wondering what TheSignalEngineer's take on it was - Bering in mind that his explanation of Rimini was most definitely not the official one. (note - edited to cite the right RMweb contributor) Fortunately I was out of that sort of job by the time RIMINI arrived. First time I heard that definition was actually from NRs Ops/Engineering Liaison man on a project where I was producing a report for a contractor when it had just been introduced. Although I'm not familiar with the SSOWP I expect it will contain many of the things I had on the site safety cards I had produced for my projects from 1990 onwards. They included access details, line directions and speeds, areas where additional protection was required such as extra lookout, protective speed restriction or possession, emergency contacts, etc. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted July 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2019 19 hours ago, Oldddudders said: BR wasn't great at this, but there were periodic purges. No doubt these days the traditional complexity of booking possessions and getting staff and plant on site to tidy up is further lumbered with the safe working methods we have been discussing. No-one doubts the priorities of staff safety are right, but slots and resources are much harder to find than was the case years ago. We picked up over 40 wagons of scrap between Primrose Hill and Watford Junction after the DC Lines job. I wonder if that signal post on the northern bit is still there. I never managed to get a possession and isolations of the DC and Down Fast to match up so I could take it out. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Try explaining that to the public. All they see is the s/crap lineside and wonder why it always seems to be there! Brian. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted July 9, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 9, 2019 9 hours ago, jim.snowdon said: Yes, and by the time anyone comes to think of picking them up (if ever), the bags will probably have deteriorated to the point where they will split if picked up. Jim When I learned Holyhead nearly 20 years ago there were 3 blue bulk bags trackside full of ballast that were used as a braking point for bodorgan station on the up, they are still there now, faded and deteriorated somewhat but still used as the braking point! 4 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Having looked after Clapham & Woking PW section back in the day - scrap is easily managed if you are prepared to put in the effort and work and change the culture ......................... the difficult part was ensuring that visiting projects do the same The current state of the section from Worting Jn right up to Berrylands and from Clapham Junction into Waterloo makes me want to weep .................................................. track, vegetation and scrap 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium martin_wynne Posted July 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 11, 2019 RAIB report today on a previous track worker fatality. It makes uncomfortable reading. I didn't know that any p.w. staff were on zero-hours contracts: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-07-2019-fatal-accident-at-stoats-nest-junction-purley Martin. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 I don't think NR does zero hours contracts for it's own staff, but the third party suppliers of various services certainly could. In my experience it's usual for a COSS (if they still exist), Lookout etc to come from a third party supplier. I guess the work for such companies is quite variable and the business sense of zero hours contracts for them is clear. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 11, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, martin_wynne said: RAIB report today on a previous track worker fatality. It makes uncomfortable reading. I didn't know that any p.w. staff were on zero-hours contracts: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/report-07-2019-fatal-accident-at-stoats-nest-junction-purley Martin. Even more worrying than that in my view with a sub-contracted man working in an area of which he seemed to have very limited knowledge and where he received no briefing at the site. I would also wonder about the level of assessment NR had applied to the contractor before accepting them for online work as the contractor's supervision of working hours in a safety critical person would seem to be lacking to say the very least. Alas an incident that was regrettably bound to happen sometime or other notwithstanding all the extra paperwork and procedures now in use for possessions and staff working on or about the line - very worrying. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 As far as I have been able to see, the industry is area is rife with multiple layers of subcontracting, right down to individuals who, having the qualifications, set themselves up as one man companies, able and prepared to turn out for any job/contractor at very short notice on the basis of a telephone call. That they exist at all is down to the nature of the privatised railway, with as much as possible, especially projects, put out to contract for the lowest price and a general desire on the part ofthe contractors to employ as few full time staff as possible. Jim 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted July 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 11, 2019 The original concept for Railtrack in the run-up to privatisation envisaged a total of only 35-40 directly employed staff - essentially "contract managers" to oversee the delivery (or otherwise) of all works, maintenance, renewals, etc. Thankfully, that particular concept never materialised but the one involving lots of contractors/sub-contractors did - and still does. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted July 11, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: Even more worrying than that in my view with a sub-contracted man working in an area of which he seemed to have very limited knowledge and where he received no briefing at the site. I would also wonder about the level of assessment NR had applied to the contractor before accepting them for online work as the contractor's supervision of working hours in a safety critical person would seem to be lacking to say the very least. Alas an incident that was regrettably bound to happen sometime or other notwithstanding all the extra paperwork and procedures now in use for possessions and staff working on or about the line - very worrying. 1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said: As far as I have been able to see, the industry is area is rife with multiple layers of subcontracting, right down to individuals who, having the qualifications, set themselves up as one man companies, able and prepared to turn out for any job/contractor at very short notice on the basis of a telephone call. That they exist at all is down to the nature of the privatised railway, with as much as possible, especially projects, put out to contract for the lowest price and a general desire on the part ofthe contractors to employ as few full time staff as possible. Jim It doesn't matter what restrictions are brought in to promote track safety; nothing will really change while the work always goes to the lowest bidder. In the ensuing race to the bottom, the cost/profit motive will inevitably subvert them. Creating and running an enforcement regime to ensure the safety of the "outside" workforce properly would probably cost NR more than they save by contracting the work out. Anything beyond work covered by the "regular" PW and S&T companies had become a semi-regulated jungle of multi-layered contractors, sub-contractors and one-man-bands posing as sub-contactors long before I retired in 2012, and I'd be astounded if much has moved in a safety-positive direction since. There's often a big difference between being able to present reams of paper to "prove" a job has been carried out safely and that being truly the case. John Edited July 11, 2019 by Dunsignalling 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted July 11, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 11, 2019 Hopefully not quite like this! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 Indeed not, but that sort of training material, even though the incidents are staged, probably got the point over better than today's training presentations do. Apart from the strap men who get it wrong, how many people have, for example, seen what at 750V DC short circuit looks like, or have ever seen a short circuiting bar used on the real railway? Jim 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 (edited) I've seen actual short circuit faults in the wild on both AC and DC systems (and controlled tests of both kinds using spring loaded actuators, and I've been in the substations during short circuit testing). They're all quite exciting if you're into that kind of thing. The energy dissipated is quite a surprise the first time you see it. Edited July 11, 2019 by Zomboid srellig miztook 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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