RMweb Gold Ruston Posted March 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2019 Page 22, 15, para 9 - http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Requirements1928.pdf Safety Points - worked scotches or derailers may be used in instead of safety points where protection is necessary. I should really have put a catch point in on my layout but it will be a bother to fit one now. As it is a light railway the above rules excuse the fitting of a catch point if I fit the above instead but exactly what form would these devices take? Does anyone know of any photos of such equipment? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Morgan Posted March 18, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 18, 2019 Plenty still in use in Germany. Not sure if UK ones were similar though: Neubiberg Hohenbrunn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John Isherwood Posted March 18, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, Ruston said: Page 22, 15, para 9 - http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Requirements1928.pdf Safety Points - worked scotches or derailers may be used in instead of safety points where protection is necessary. I should really have put a catch point in on my layout but it will be a bother to fit one now. As it is a light railway the above rules excuse the fitting of a catch point if I fit the above instead but exactly what form would these devices take? Does anyone know of any photos of such equipment? I have seen photos of a section of sleeper, normally laying lengthwise within the 4ft., but which could be turned through 90 degrees and locked in place across one railhead. This had the effect of a stop-block, and could prevent runaways leaving a siding. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 One of three, big files so having to send separate. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Final one of three. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Wheel Chock, Beverley Cherry Tree, June 1983. 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted March 18, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Ruston said: Page 22, 15, para 9 - http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Requirements1928.pdf Safety Points - worked scotches or derailers may be used in instead of safety points where protection is necessary. I should really have put a catch point in on my layout but it will be a bother to fit one now. As it is a light railway the above rules excuse the fitting of a catch point if I fit the above instead but exactly what form would these devices take? Does anyone know of any photos of such equipment? Sorry to be pedantic but did you mean "Trap Points" rather that "Catch Points"? They are similar but utilised in different scenarois/circumstances, traps being "worked" and "catch" being sprung (usually). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ruston Posted March 18, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2019 Thanks very much for all that, Mick. That's exactly what I wanted. I'll have a go at making one of those in the first set of diagrams, rather than that in the photo as I want it to be operated from the signalbox. It fits with my othersignalling, too, with that being Saxby & Farmer stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 I have just found the three attached, may be of use, photographer unknown, 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2019 3 hours ago, micknich2003 said: I have just found the three attached, may be of use, photographer unknown, Scarborough? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Yes, Scarbrough, and presume now long gone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted March 18, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, micknich2003 said: Yes, Scarbrough, and presume now long gone. I would presume they disappeared when Scarborough station SB closed - unless they became electrically worked from Falsgrave SB, until that closed. But I'm sure someone will correct me on this if my presumption is wide of the mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted March 18, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2019 There used to be motor worked ones at Darlington Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 19, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2019 15 hours ago, iands said: I would presume they disappeared when Scarborough station SB closed - unless they became electrically worked from Falsgrave SB, until that closed. But I'm sure someone will correct me on this if my presumption is wide of the mark. No, I took photos of them long after the Station' box closed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted March 19, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2019 40 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said: No, I took photos of them long after the Station' box closed. Thanks Mike. I felt confident someone would correct me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, iands said: Sorry to be pedantic but did you mean "Trap Points" rather that "Catch Points"? They are similar but utilised in different scenarois/circumstances, traps being "worked" and "catch" being sprung (usually). Not necessarily. Catch points could be worked by signal boxes as in rule 63 "Where Catch Points are worked from Signal-boxes, Signalmen must ..(keep them open unless required for a facing move) .." that was in the 1904 GWR version but by 1950 it had become "Runaway Catch Points....." suggesting that there could be a confusion of terms. I don't know when the term "Trap points" replaced the earlier "Safety Points" and on which railways. It appears in the 1933 LNER rule book and the 1950 rule book in rule 62 as "Trap Points, derailers and Scotch Blocks but it's "Safety Points" or "Safety Points and Scotch Blocks " in the 1904 GWR rule book so it looks as though derailers appeared fairly late. Did traps refer originally only to trap sidings rather to points designed to throw runaway wagons off the line? Though trap points were sometimes used, derailers seem for some time to have been the norm in France to protect running lines from secondary lines. These can be remotely operated but were more commonly kept locked and opened locally with a key whose release was interlocked with the relevant signals being closed. This derailer at Blaye on the Gironde has been left open . It looks as though it may have been remotely operated but probably just by a local lever.The line, which served the local port, closed in 2004 when grain transport was transferred to road This closed derailer is at Noyelles on the Boulogne-Amiens main line and seems to be the standard SNCF design. I don't think these were remotely operated- the sidings are almost totally disused now- so the tin box would protect the locking mechanism. At the old Fort William station (closed 1975) the signalling diagram shows a scotch block just beyond the gate outside the station to protect the ungated level crossing leading to the MacBraynes pier from the "old pier sidings". You can see it fairly clearly in this photo from summer 1971 https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/31/449/ In this photo it is closed and there are coaches parked on the siding- as there often were to strengthen Glasgow trains in the summer . Other photos show it locked open when the siding was empty even though it was supposed to be kept closed. This was from 1933 but the note in the sectional appendix was pretty mich the same until the station closed except that BR called it a Scotch Block rather than a Choke block. A slightly ironic name given that in earlier times the line to the quayside beyond the station had been mostly used to bring wagonloads of grain from small ships to the area's various distilleries. If it had been kept closed the Scotch would have been blocked! Edited March 19, 2019 by Pacific231G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted March 19, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2019 45 minutes ago, Pacific231G said: Not necessarily. Catch points could be worked by signal boxes as in rule 63 "Where Catch Points are worked from Signal-boxes, Signalmen must ..(keep them open unless required for a facing move) .." that was in the 1904 GWR version but by 1950 it had become "Runaway Catch Points....." suggesting that there could be a confusion of terms. I don't know when the term "Trap points" replaced the earlier "Safety Points" and on which railways. It appears in the 1933 LNER rule book and the 1950 rule book in rule 62 as "Trap Points, derailers and Scotch Blocks but it's "Safety Points" or "Safety Points and Scotch Blocks " in the 1904 GWR rule book so it looks as though derailers appeared fairly late. Did traps refer originally only to trap sidings rather to points designed to throw runaway wagons off the line? Though trap points were sometimes used, derailers seem for some time to have been the norm in France to protect running lines from secondary lines. These can be remotely operated but were more commonly kept locked and opened locally with a key whose release was interlocked with the relevant signals being closed. This derailer at Blaye on the Gironde has been left open . It looks as though it may have been remotely operated but probably just by a local lever.The line, which served the local port, closed in 2004 when grain transport was transferred to road This closed derailer is at Noyelles on the Boulogne-Amiens main line and seems to be the standard SNCF design. I don't think these were remotely operated- the sidings are almost totally disused now- so the tin box would protect the locking mechanism. At the old Fort William station (closed 1975) the signalling diagram shows a scotch block just beyond the gate outside the station to protect the ungated level crossing leading to the MacBraynes pier from the "old pier sidings". You can see it fairly clearly in this photo from summer 1971 https://www.railscot.co.uk/img/31/449/ In this photo it is closed and there are coaches parked on the siding- as there often were to strengthen Glasgow trains in the summer . Other photos show it locked open when the siding was empty even though it was supposed to be kept closed. This was from 1933 but the note in the sectional appendix was pretty mich the same until the station closed except that BR called it a Scotch Block rather than a Choke block. A slightly ironic name given that in earlier times the line to the quayside beyond the station had been mostly used to bring wagonloads of grain from small ships to the area's various distilleries. If it had been kept closed the Scotch would have been blocked! Many thanks for the clarification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted March 19, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2019 20 hours ago, russ p said: There used to be motor worked ones at Darlington Still one there this afternoon - south end of the Up / Down Station Loop. Tried to take a picture of it from the window of 1E17, but it was rubbish! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 On 18/03/2019 at 14:14, micknich2003 said: Wheel Chock, Beverley Cherry Tree, June 1983. How is the use of that controlled? The other derailers are obviously linked to a signal box, I can't see anything on that, not even a padlock Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted March 19, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, RLWP said: How is the use of that controlled? The other derailers are obviously linked to a signal box, I can't see anything on that, not even a padlock Richard Looks to me like the shunter sticks the hook of his pole through the loop and drags it out of the way and hopefully remembers too drag it back on completion of the shunt. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 If he has to remember to drag it back, what's the point of having it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 On 18/03/2019 at 13:32, Ruston said: Page 22, 15, para 9 - http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Requirements1928.pdf Safety Points - worked scotches or derailers may be used in instead of safety points where protection is necessary. I should really have put a catch point in on my layout but it will be a bother to fit one now. As it is a light railway the above rules excuse the fitting of a catch point if I fit the above instead but exactly what form would these devices take? Does anyone know of any photos of such equipment? Thanks for posting this Ruston, it's a fascinating document. I've just looked at it in more detail and the terminology is very interesting. There is no actual reference to trap points (or to catch points for that matter) in the text, safety points seems to have been the generic term. The nearest is "..provision of properly interlocked worked points, a sufficient distance from a siding connection which can be set as a trap behind vehicles standing below that connection". The index does refer to "points, trap" but the references that points to (page 9 line 53, P11 L49 & P12 L50) actually refer to safety or throw-off points so one may assume that the term trap points was starting to be used. I think the lesson here is to beware of pedantry based on current terminology because it may simply be anachronistic in reference to earlier eras. I wish Peco would get it through it's collective head that there is not and never has been such a thing as a catch turnout which is what appears in their catalogue. ditto turnout motor instead of point motor or, in American English, switch machine. One feels that they've been Bulleid by the "you can't call them points they're turnouts" brigade and gone too far. In the MoT requirements the relaxations for light railways will be very useful for a friend who is trying to figure out how to signal one. Not just the use of scotches or derailers but not requiring distant signals as well. It's interesting that this section refers to "light railways or railways of local interest". That's a term I've never seen used in English before but Chemin de Fer (or Voie Ferrée) d'Interet Local was the term used in France to refer to railways that were the responsibity of a local authority - usually the département- rather than the state. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ruston Posted March 19, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Pacific231G said: Thanks for posting this Ruston, it's a fascinating document. I've just looked at it in more detail and the terminology is very interesting. There is no actual reference to trap points (or to catch points for that matter) in the text, safety points seems to have been the generic term. The nearest is "..provision of properly interlocked worked points, a sufficient distance from a siding connection which can be set as a trap behind vehicles standing below that connection". The index does refer to "points, trap" but the references that points to (page 9 line 53, P11 L49 & P12 L50) actually refer to safety or throw-off points so one may assume that the term trap points was starting to be used. I think the lesson here is to beware of pedantry based on current terminology because it may simply be anachronistic in reference to earlier eras. I wish Peco would get it through it's collective head that there is not and never has been such a thing as a catch turnout which is what appears in their catalogue. ditto turnout motor instead of point motor or, in American English, switch machine. One feels that they've been Bulleid by the "you can't call them points they're turnouts" brigade and gone too far. In the MoT requirements the relaxations for light railways will be very useful for a friend who is trying to figure out how to signal one. Not just the use of scotches or derailers but not requiring distant signals as well. It's interesting that this section refers to "light railways or railways of local interest". That's a term I've never seen used in English before but Chemin de Fer (or Voie Ferrée) d'Interet Local was the term used in France to refer to railways that were the responsibity of a local authority - usually the département- rather than the state. Thanks ought really to go to Nearholmer, who linked to it in page 2 of the thread, below, which may also be of use to your friend who is trying to figure out how to signal a light railway. Edited March 19, 2019 by Ruston 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Banger Blue Posted March 19, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2019 Reading TCD, you can see the derailer in the closed position on the rail, just to the front of the 387. All the shed roads are protected by a derailer and they are interlocked with the Depot Protection System. The yellow case to the side of the track is the operating motor. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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