Rugby Union

[tigerburnie]

Nice to see the Tigers young 'uns give it a go, too late to do much in time for this upcoming world cup, but when Jones finally goes, we should be in good shape going forwards, there's a queue of young talent waiting.

[rockershovel]

On 31/10/2022 at 09:55, whart57 said:

 

That's the nub of the problem isn't it. Either Wasps and Worcester find some multi-millionaire prepared to back them - and restart the cycle that got them into trouble - and then they will be signing players well good enough to see off the likes of Ealing and Doncaster, or they restart next season with next to nothing, in which case they will struggle to stay in the Championship. At least Worcester have a home and a community behind them, Wasps turned their back on theirs and are looking more like a franchise whose only asset is a name and a place in the top levels of club rugby.

.... which has always been the problem with the model of professionalisation allowed in the door by the RFU. Look at the asset-stripping, loading with debt and monetisation of intangibles which is now running amok in the top echelons of the round-ball game. Rugby simply doesn't have that potential at club level, but people won't stop trying. 

 

The RFU thought they could do it after 2003, but failed. Various clubs have bankrupted themselves trying. Look at New Zealand, who have pushed the monetisation of their brand to the limits; the money just isn't there.

 

The money, it is now clear, is in the transmission rights for tournaments; primarily international tournaments. Amazon pulled an international tournament out of thin air and it made money, but (on the evidence) the established tournaments like 6N have the edge.

 

There's no reason for these tournaments to pander to the clubs, unlike the RFU. It's ironic that commercialism would do a better job of promoting the international side than the RFU.....it used to be proverbial that you needed to play for one of six clubs for the England selectors to notice you, now we're seeing that the international side doesn't need more than a handful of top clubs, because at that level the player pool simply isn't big enough. 

[tigerburnie]

I see the opposite with the RFU being marginalised, in order to survive, the clubs need their players more not less, fans don't want to watch a 2nd XV and without the clubs England cannot function as a national side. The appetite amongst rugby fans as apposed to corporate drinkers is diminishing at international level in England, Twickenham will be packed next week but I doubt if a quarter of those in there will be watching the game or have a clue as to what is actually happening.

Rugby will continue, but it will be different, money will be hard to come by and there may be some changes, but the Premier league will continue, though possibly with some different teams and I'm all for that.

I expect the club game to grow with the rumoured two leagues of 10 teams being mooted all being fully professional, the RFU don't have that sort of money so I would expect the likes of CVC to step up their involvement and see the RFU role diminish in future.

[whart57]

International sport generally attracts the crowds and interest because it unites the supporters of individual clubs. Theoretically the games should be of a higher standard because the best players are picked but it is becoming obvious that if players aren't familiar with each other's play the standard drops. The games in the round ball World Cup look set to be pretty poor, for predictable reasons. The heat of Qatar sucking energy out of the players, players not having had proper preparation with their coaches and new team mates, too many teams and not enough good ones. This tournament may see FIFA's model expire, particularly as UEFA  have come up with a format - the Nations League - that is far more streamlined, seeds nations according to performance which means games are better matched and gives the smaller nations something to play for, namely promotion to a higher tier, and, if the reports that UEFA is going to invite the South American nations in are correct, has the potential to sideline the World Cup.

 

Rugby is structured differently of course, but some of the same weaknesses exist. Long established tournaments like the Six Nations will be robust but even there a lot relies on Italy getting able to win their home games on a regular basis. They've had a good Autumn so far and they have some good young players but they have been off the pace for far too long. The World Cup will see a good few mismatches and the one sided games in the Qualifier semi-finals do not suggest there is anything out there you'd risk against the top nations. It's not that long ago when England had a bad tournament and had to go through the qualifiers for the next one that referees ordered the scrums to be uncontested because of the risk of life-changing injury to opposing hookers, props and locks.

 

Patriotic fervour, and lots of beer flowing in pubs with tellies, will no doubt cover up a lot of flaws, but too many games with seventy point margins will be boring for anyone except the supporters of the winners. And for a lot of them too. Putting fifty points on the All Blacks is cause for a week's celebration. Fifty points on Portugal? Meh.

 

[rockershovel]

20 professional teams? The evidence seems to indicate otherwise. 10 would be more like it.

 

NZ have shown over a long period of time that a league integrated with the national squad, playing a season organised around the national side with teams of nationsl-eligible players, playing in a consistent style, produces a consistently successful national side. I don't see the RFU doing any of those things.

 

Let the clubs fail. The players will still be there and their intangibles are only worth anything as part of a top tier structure - look at Rosslyn Park for example. If the RFU took positive action it could seize the reins in present circumstances.... but it won't. 

 

The RWC changed the game for the second XV, England A, call them what you like. Because all games had to be Internationals, played with the same squad there was no room for England A. Historic A Cap fixtures like the Churchill Cup survive but their opportunities are much reduced  

 

Italy clearly can't do it. Georgia, even less so. The decision was taken for purely commercial reasons and hasn't borne examination, so it goes. Thsnk them for their efforts and invite a rotating guest team, one of the South Seas sides - give the players a proper pay-day while you're about it. Fiji look good at present. 

[whart57]

What was the point of those A cap fixtures? They didn't draw in the crowds so had no commercial value. There might have been value years ago when the gap in standards between international and club rugby was wider to try out potential players to see if they could step up but that doesn't apply any more, coaches and selectors see their targets play at high level every weekend now.

 

Rugby is the main winter ball sport in New Zealand, and that allows NZ to adopt that structure. France is also able to sustain a strong structure because rugby is the dominant game in some regions. France also has a strong communitarian local government which means every small town has its stade municipale where the local club can play home games.

 

It's not like that in England. As a participation sport rugby lags a long way behind the round ball game, and it doesn't help that in one of the few regions where there is a strong community participation the preference is for the 13 a side option. Elsewhere rugby union is a middle class sport, and that is a poor basis for a professional structure. Certainly in England.

 

I suspect the model for English rugby will end up like that of American Football. There there is a flourishing college and high school competition with the professional franchises of the NFL on top. However the whole of the US has only 32 franchise teams, England's rugby union would only have six in proportion to population. In terms of the amounts of money supporting the game it would be two at best.

 

Fortunately rugby union clubs don't need the roster sizes of the NFL, but even so, a fully professional structure of twenty clubs - financed sustainably - is extremely unlikely. The fringe nations have got round this by creating regions (Ireland), new clubs (Scotland) or designating certain clubs to be the top of local pyramids (Wales and Italy). England either needs to follow one of those models, or it needs to adopt the franchise model. France's model won't work here and the sort of franchise model here now is not working.

Edited November 14, 2022 by whart57

[tigerburnie]

16 hours ago, rockershovel said:

20 professional teams? The evidence seems to indicate otherwise. 10 would be more like it.

 

 

Already in discussion seemingly

[rockershovel]

11 hours ago, whart57 said:

What was the point of those A cap fixtures? They didn't draw in the crowds so had no commercial value. There might have been value years ago when the gap in standards between international and club rugby was wider to try out potential players to see if they could step up but that doesn't apply any more, coaches and selectors see their targets play at high level every weekend now.

 

Rugby is the main winter ball sport in New Zealand, and that allows NZ to adopt that structure. France is also able to sustain a strong structure because rugby is the dominant game in some regions. France also has a strong communitarian local government which means every small town has its stade municipale where the local club can play home games.

 

It's not like that in England. As a participation sport rugby lags a long way behind the round ball game, and it doesn't help that in one of the few regions where there is a strong community participation the preference is for the 13 a side option. Elsewhere rugby union is a middle class sport, and that is a poor basis for a professional structure. Certainly in England.

 

I suspect the model for English rugby will end up like that of American Football. There there is a flourishing college and high school competition with the professional franchises of the NFL on top. However the whole of the US has only 32 franchise teams, England's rugby union would only have six in proportion to population. In terms of the amounts of money supporting the game it would be two at best.

 

Fortunately rugby union clubs don't need the roster sizes of the NFL, but even so, a fully professional structure of twenty clubs - financed sustainably - is extremely unlikely. The fringe nations have got round this by creating regions (Ireland), new clubs (Scotland) or designating certain clubs to be the top of local pyramids (Wales and Italy). England either needs to follow one of those models, or it needs to adopt the franchise model. France's model won't work here and the sort of franchise model here now is not working.

The main point of the A Internationals was to recognise, and cater for the simple fact that the gap between the top tier and the second tier was structural. 

 

The RWC produces a rich crop of one-sided walk-overs, and that's not including the sides who don't qualify. 

[tigerburnie]

What an odd array of results today, did anyone learn anything from these matches that might help going into a World Cup soon, the only obvious thing I can see is none of the sides are showing enough form to actually win the thing and most of the coaches seem to be out of their depth.

[rockershovel]

10 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

What an odd array of results today, did anyone learn anything from these matches that might help going into a World Cup soon, the only obvious thing I can see is none of the sides are showing enough form to actually win the thing and most of the coaches seem to be out of their depth.

It's going to be a very open RWC with some surprise results. 

 

Eddie Jones has the choice of one young scrumhalf who needs development, two more who really arent there yet, an ageing "impact sub" and a very experienced one who is too slow to be effective. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lochgorm]

Neglect France at your peril!  I thought last weekend that their disposal of South Africa produced one of the most memorable and epic titanic contests I have ever seen.  Also the French crowd at Marseilles were immense and partisan and I doubt we will see anything approaching the like from the upcoming snooze fest in Qatar.

 

I am still scratching my head about the final 20 minutes at Twickenham yesterday wondering whether it was done because of Eddie Jones or in spite of him.  My view is that there is too much Polynesian baggage in the English team.  Tuilagi ought to be consigned to history especially if referees start reversing penalties because of his childish antics with the forwards when one is awarded to England.  Commentators rave about Billy Vinupola’s metres made but Rugby is not American Football, and he does little to open out a game.

 

Marcus Smith is a talent but England should examine how Harlequins bring out the best in him by giving him a No8 and inside centre with whom he can create his play making options.

 

Charlie

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Lochgorm said:

Neglect France at your peril!  I thought last weekend that their disposal of South Africa produced one of the most memorable and epic titanic contests I have ever seen.  Also the French crowd at Marseilles were immense and partisan and I doubt we will see anything approaching the like from the upcoming snooze fest in Qatar.

 

I am still scratching my head about the final 20 minutes at Twickenham yesterday wondering whether it was done because of Eddie Jones or in spite of him.  My view is that there is too much Polynesian baggage in the English team.  Tuilagi ought to be consigned to history especially if referees start reversing penalties because of his childish antics with the forwards when one is awarded to England.  Commentators rave about Billy Vinupola’s metres made but Rugby is not American Football, and he does little to open out a game.

 

Marcus Smith is a talent but England should examine how Harlequins bring out the best in him by giving him a No8 and inside centre with whom he can create his play making options.

 

Charlie

Indeed. Smith and Farrell are clearly not a winning combination. Billy Vunipola is clearly past his best, as is Youngs, but neither have obvious successors ready to play. 

 

Very disappointing that they opted to kick to touch and end the game, forcing a draw rather than having a go in what was, after all not a tournament game. They had FINALLY gained some momentum, apart from anything else they need to remember that a LOT of people had paid top dollar to be entertained and received poor value for money - to the extent that people can be seen leaving from 65 min onwards!

 

The 2003 RWC team featured no less than seven players who had, or would captain the national side (Johnson, Dallaglio, Corry, Robinson, Catt, Dawson, Vickery plus Wilkinson who was appointed by Andy Robindon but never played in the role). Johnson captained Lions twice. I don't see that in any recent team. 

[rockershovel]

Talking to my sons I'm interested that both made much the same remarks about the transactional relationship between the Twickenham crowd and the RFU generally. It was clear last week that the crowd needed to see SOMETHING from the team after a fairly abject performance the week before. Our neighbour in the stands described it as "a miserable experience, watching a game of that standard in the rain".

 

The DT coverage particularly refers to the crowd's patience being exhausted yesterday. I strongly suspect that there will be a reiteration of 2015 after this RWC, with people being forced out against their wishes - which fairly takes some doing at Twickenham, which isn't a plc and has no real mechanism for discarding the lazy, self-serving and plain useless apart from internal faction fighting. They CAN move quickly - after all, they appointed a CEO and forced him out again within months a while ago - but the problem is that collective self-interest is the ruling factor there. Incompetence can be forgiven indefinitely provided the revenues keep coming. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by rockershovel

[tigerburnie]

Looks like we might lose our head coach to the England job then, can't help feeling it's a bit too soon, one Swallow doesn't make a summer and all that, but the RFU don't do in depth thinking do they?

Who knows who we will end up with if all the coaches go with Borths, no obvious candidates that I can see.

[rockershovel]

Well that was ... different. It was Wales' to lose... and they did! 

[BoD]

R.I.P. Doddie Weir

 

Heaven has gained a mad giraffe.

[rockershovel]

What can we say about England...... they simply haven't improved since 2019. 

[grandadbob]

masochist

/ˈmasəkɪst/

Learn to pronounce

noun

a person who derives sexual gratification from their own pain or humiliation.

"the roles of masochist and mistress"

(in general use) a person who enjoys an activity that appears to be painful or tedious.

"what kind of masochist would take part in such an experiment?"

 

Also:

An idiot like me who continues to support England.  🤪

[rockershovel]

38 minutes ago, grandadbob said:

masochist

/ˈmasəkɪst/

Learn to pronounce

noun

a person who derives sexual gratification from their own pain or humiliation.

"the roles of masochist and mistress"

(in general use) a person who enjoys an activity that appears to be painful or tedious.

"what kind of masochist would take part in such an experiment?"

 

Also:

An idiot like me who continues to support England.  🤪

Let's have some perspective here. Anyone with memories of witnessing the England football team win a tournament of any sort is now an OAP...

[tigerburnie]

Things is England rugby have all the players they need to win, they just don't have the right people in the right jobs to do that, England soccer team has never really had the players to win anything, 1966 was a one off fluke that might well be being repeated by the RFU.

[rockershovel]

11 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

Things is England rugby have all the players they need to win, they just don't have the right people in the right jobs to do that, England soccer team has never really had the players to win anything, 1966 was a one off fluke that might well be being repeated by the RFU.

I don't believe England DO have the right players. They haven't developed their brand of ten-man, bosh-it-up-the-middle rugby since the 1990s.

 

When they meet a side who are either physically dominant, or simply execute better they have no answers. 

 

The 2003 team wasn't a fluke. It was the last great hurrah for the amateur days, a team of captains. They beat ALL the then-dominant SH sides on their way to the tournament, on their own respective turf. The final drop-goal was a masterpiece of tactical thinking - watch Johnson take the extra contact to form another ruck to allow Wilkinson to take the kick, and Dawson appeal to the ref to prevent him blowing time and so, allowing the kick to be taken. I don't believe the current squad even understand that level of execution. 

 

That team dissolved almost immediately. There was no succession planning, and no successors. The RFU reclined on their laurels while the Premiership continued dismantling the basis of that success. 

 

They were comprehensively outplayed by SA in 2007 in the pool stages and again in the Final. They did not meet in 2011 (England exiting to France) and the 2015 fiasco is a matter of record. In 2019 they were once again, comprehensively out-played at their own game by SA in the final. 

 

The 2003 team were led by England's last truly world-class captain, Martin Johnson, the Big Man himself. Johnson, who would probably have been an All Black but for injury and captained Lions twice. They had Lawrence Dallaglio's swagger, with Dawson, Wilkinson and Robinson behind them. 

 

Give Jones his due. He galvanised a team in complete disarray and made great progress with players like Hartley and Farrell, both disciplinary problems who had more to give to the right coach. Sinckler is probably another. But he has run his race, as have too many of those he has kept faith with. 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by rockershovel

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

I don't believe England DO have the right players. They haven't developed their brand of ten-man, bosh-it-up-the-middle rugby since the 1990s.

 

When they meet a side who are either physically dominant, or simply execute better they have no answers. 

 

The 2003 team wasn't a fluke. It was the last great hurrah for the amateur days, a team of captains. They beat ALL the then-dominant SH sides on their way to the tournament, on their own respective turf. The final drop-goal was a masterpiece of tactical thinking - watch Johnson take the extra contact to form another ruck to allow Wilkinson to take the kick, and Dawson appeal to the ref to prevent him blowing time and so, allowing the kick to be taken. I don't believe the current squad even understand that level of execution. 

 

That team dissolved almost immediately. There was no succession planning, and no successors. The RFU reclined on their laurels while the Premiership continued dismantling the basis of that success. 

 

They were comprehensively outplayed by SA in 2007 in the pool stages and again in the Final. They did not meet in 2011 (England exiting to France) and the 2015 fiasco is a matter of record. In 2019 they were once again, comprehensively out-played at their own game by SA in the final. 

 

The 2003 team were led by England's last truly world-class captain, Martin Johnson, the Big Man himself. Johnson, who would probably have been an All Black but for injury and captained Lions twice. They had Lawrence Dallaglio's swagger, with Dawson, Wilkinson and Robinson behind them. 

 

Give Jones his due. He galvanised a team in complete disarray and made great progress with players like Hartley and Farrell, both disciplinary problems who had more to give to the right coach. Sinckler is probably another. But he has run his race, as have too many of those he has kept faith with. 

 

Don't forget, too, that England had the guts, self-belief and ability to pick themselves up after Elton Flatley's equalising penalty just at the end of normal time. Not many sides would have done that.

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Don't forget, too, that England had the guts, self-belief and ability to pick themselves up after Elton Flatley's equalising penalty just at the end of normal time. Not many sides would have done that.

I believe that comes under "leadership"? I've posted this before, but look at the number of players in that team who would captain the national side; the number of club captains; Johnson's record as a two-times Lions captain. 

 

They were as a matter of record, the best team in the world at that moment. They only needed to execute. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

It's depressing and instructive to note the number of commentators in today's coverage, remarking that the RFU have now exhausted even the elephantine patience of the Twickenham faithful. 

 

The number remarking that a day at  Twickenham is now, simply not worth the cost. I can only agree; I went to see Japan and we are breaking a rule next year, going to see Italy in the 6N but they were the only games available within the budget I was prepared to pay. 

 

I now spend more money to the NFL than rugby, and I know I'm not alone 

[rockershovel]

I see the whispering campaign against Eddie Jones is gathering pace. 

 

FWIW, my feeling is that his race was run in 2019 and he should not have been reappointed. He has a lot of "previous" for galvanising teams in disarray, and a considerable record for coaching players with disciplinary problems, both of which he demonstrated to good effect. 

 

He can't fix the problems with basic skills and lack of tactical thinking which pretty much any combination of England candidates will bring to camp. 

 

Will he go? I doubt it. Gatland or Robertson might turn the team round quickly but it would be an expensive experiment with no guarantee of success. Sweeney won't act. Borthwick would serve himself better by starting afresh after an undistinguished RWC csmpaign; I'm predicting an undistinguished exit vs Australia in the first knock-out round. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by rockershovel