Rugby Union

[tigerburnie]

Youngs did what he is told to do, when the error count goes up and route 1 is failing he is told to do the up and unders in the hope of a mistake by the opposition and yes he has told us that. He finds it difficult to lose the habit when he returns to Welford Road, playing for national coaches is very different from club plans.

[rockershovel]

41 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

Youngs did what he is told to do, when the error count goes up and route 1 is failing he is told to do the up and unders in the hope of a mistake by the opposition and yes he has told us that. He finds it difficult to lose the habit when he returns to Welford Road, playing for national coaches is very different from club plans.

.... which is an interesting comment. I take it you mean "kick it away" as opposed to "up and under", because so much of his kicking seems to have no obvious purpose? Watch NZ and you will see that they almost never do this, every kick seems to be anticipated by at least one runner, and the kicker knows where he intends the ball to go. 

[tigerburnie]

12 hours ago, rockershovel said:

.... which is an interesting comment. I take it you mean "kick it away" as opposed to "up and under", because so much of his kicking seems to have no obvious purpose? Watch NZ and you will see that they almost never do this, every kick seems to be anticipated by at least one runner, and the kicker knows where he intends the ball to go. 

Exactly, at Tigers and indeed also with Saracens, the kick chase is vital, England rarely bother to chase

[BoD]

All these little things just add to the theory that it’s all about Jones and not England.

 

Apprently, and I don’t know how true this is, he doesn’t see the six nations as important, as an end in itself, just a stepping stone to the World Cup.

[rockershovel]

6 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

Exactly, at Tigers and indeed also with Saracens, the kick chase is vital, England rarely bother to chase

NZ benefit from operating the club sides as a support system for the national side, so when the #9 or #10 kicks the ball, the supporting runners know whose ball it is and where it is going. England don't have that cohesion, so the #9 or #10 just leathers it away. It's an old problem going back at least to Rob Andrew, who seemed to have few other thoughts

[rockershovel]

3 minutes ago, BoD said:

All these little things just add to the theory that it’s all about Jones and not England.

 

Apprently, and I don’t know how true this is, he doesn’t see the six nations as important, as an end in itself, just a stepping stone to the World Cup.

Jones' relationship with the RFU is purely transactional. The RFU learnt a hard lesson in 2015 - 6N tickets sell themselves, even against Italy but it is ESSENTIAL to qualify from the pool stages, and preferably to the semis in RWC

[tigerburnie]

Tigers beat Barf in a close encounter at the wreck, we don't win there that often, so a great result

[BoD]

I thought Falcon’s 14 men defended remarkably well for a long time against Essex this afternoon. The conditions didn’t help either side but I’m still proud in defeat.

[tigerburnie]

Am I the only one who feels ill at ease that Nations are playing Rugby this weekend when their neighbour is being invaded, sport at club level yes, but nations seems to me to be sending a message of indifference to Moscow.

[rockershovel]

Perfect try from France at 77m, hope England were watching the French kicking generally

 

 

 

 

[pirouets]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

England were watching the French kicking generally

The way France are playing I suspect Engalnd will be doing a lot of watching in a couple of weeks time. At least my beloved Londin Irish are keeoing going - to early to dream of a top 6 finish????

[tigerburnie]

Tigers beat Gloucester and maintain the unbeaten run at home, big game next weekend.

[rockershovel]

11 hours ago, pirouets said:

The way France are playing I suspect Engalnd will be doing a lot of watching in a couple of weeks time. At least my beloved Londin Irish are keeoing going - to early to dream of a top 6 finish????

France are definitely the form team in this Championship. I saw them in Cardiff on Friday night a few years ago, when they looked threatening but showed a lack of ability to finish: I rather think the boot will be on tbe other foot  this time. 

[rockershovel]

Regarding England generally, Randall and Smith need development but they are certainly looking like the way forward. 

 

That said, England still show their habitual vice of long periods of possession with a general inability to get out into open space. Ford understands how to deliver well-placed kicks to open runners but Farrell and Youngs never even attempt it, and most of the backs and wingers are equally lacking. Slade showed some quality kicking, too. 

 

Dombrand's try was a piece of fortuitous opportunism, but it takes the ability to think quickly to take such opportunities. Lawes seemed to be taking Itoje's "dumb penalty" role with his deliberate knock-on, you really have to expect senior players (especially the Captain) to have a better grasp of technical offences of that sort. 

 

I rather suspect England are now in decline, in the natural order of these things. Jones refrained from a general clear-out for the 2020 campaign (given the circumstances he couldn't do much else) and it is now too late before 2023, but I suspect his successor will start with a general refreshing of the squad. 

[rockershovel]

On a technicality, I note that both games yesterday re-started after 80 minutes - why was this? 

[BoD]

20 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

On a technicality, I note that both games yesterday re-started after 80 minutes - why was this? 

In the England game the conversion passed through the posts before the 80 minutes and rules say the game has to be restarted.  The law itself can be quite confusing and several qualifications have been needed over time but basically once the conversion is complete the ball is dead.  Time cannot be called if the ball is dead.  The definition of dead ball has also changed over the years.  The referee is the sole arbiter of time, not the stadium clock or the one on TV screens.  The ref usually delegates this function to the TMO when there is one. They do try to synchronise the tv clock with the one the TMO is using, but not always the stadium clock.
 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by BoD

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, BoD said:

In the England game the conversion passed through the posts before the 80 minutes and rules say the game has to be restarted.  The law itself can be quite confusing and several qualifications have been needed over time but basically once the conversion is complete the ball is dead.  Time cannot be called if the ball is dead.  The definition of dead ball has also changed over the years.  The referee is the sole arbiter of time, not the stadium clock or the one on TV screens.  The ref usually delegates this function to the TMO when there is one. They do try to synchronise the tv clock with the one the TMO is using, but not always the stadium clock.
 

 

Some careful keyword selection reveals a clarification to referees, issued in Feb 2015 as follows;

 

If the kick is either taken or declined prior to the expiry of time, as defined by the ref and no-one else, then the game shall be restarted.

 

I note also that (unlike a penalty) if the ball hits the bar or post and bounces back, play does not continue. 

[BoD]

7 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

If the kick is either taken or declined prior to the expiry of time …

That is why, although rare, it is not not unusual for last minute conversions to be taken as quick drop kicks rather than going through the whole kicking routine.

[rockershovel]

If memory serves, the 2003 RWC Final was not restarted despite there being a few seconds left on the clock? I remember Johnny Wilkinson(?) remarking on this on tv.

 

No 2 Son had a drill in his County Schoolboys days whereby a ball could be caught in goal after a failed conversion and run straight back for a kick, the ball still being live at that point (kicks often falling in the goal area at that level)

[Graham108]

31 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

whereby a ball could be caught in goal after a failed conversion and run straight back for a kick, the ball still being live at that point (kicks often falling in the goal area at that level)

Only from a failed penalty, not from a post-try conversion

[rockershovel]

48 minutes ago, Graham108 said:

Only from a failed penalty, not from a post-try conversion

Well, I played in the front row. The "fat boys" don't really need to know that sort of thing! 

[Rivercider]

Oh dear!

I see a cricket score in Dublin, this is already a no contest,

 

cheers

[BoD]

3 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Oh dear!

I see a cricket score in Dublin, this is already a no contest,

 

cheers

That wasn’t a cricket score.

Unless you are talking about England v Australia of course.

[Rivercider]

11 minutes ago, BoD said:

That wasn’t a cricket score.

Unless you are talking about England v Australia of course.

True.

 

Fair play to Italy, they kept going and limited the damage. Ireland should really have capitalised more though.

 

cheers 

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Oh dear!

I see a cricket score in Dublin, this is already a no contest,

 

cheers

I didn't watch it. The Telegraph describes it as having "descended into farce", with spectstors leaving early in large numbers. 

 

Why was a Georgian ref officiating? Was it felt that his lack of top-tier experience wouldn't matter, as it was "only Italy"? 

 

Italy were mounting a defence of their increasingly untenable position in the tournament a week or so ago. This appeared to amount to "you can't drop us, we paid for our place" which doesn't seem likely to win them many friends.