Rugby Union

[BoD]

On 29/05/2021 at 22:53, tigerburnie said:

some competitive games taking place

You mean like Falcons against Exeter yesterday.  How embarrassing.

 

We had eight of our ‘first string’ out for one reason or another and whilst we had three debutants on our bench they had three British Lions.  Oh, the luxury to be able to bring Stuart Hogg on as we tired.  
 

Strangely enough we were still, theoretically, in contention for a European Champions Cup place until yesterday.  I don’t think we will ever be able to compete, financially or otherwise, with the other premiership teams - but it’s not the winning etc....  or so they tell us.  Bullshift.

[tigerburnie]

As much as I like Deano, he's maybe come to his use by date at Falcons, a shake up has done the Tigers some good this season.

[rockershovel]

On 31/05/2021 at 20:12, BoD said:

You mean like Falcons against Exeter yesterday.  How embarrassing.

 

We had eight of our ‘first string’ out for one reason or another and whilst we had three debutants on our bench they had three British Lions.  Oh, the luxury to be able to bring Stuart Hogg on as we tired.  
 

Strangely enough we were still, theoretically, in contention for a European Champions Cup place until yesterday.  I don’t think we will ever be able to compete, financially or otherwise, with the other premiership teams - but it’s not the winning etc....  or so they tell us.  Bullshift.

 

As long as I can remember, the top level of the English game has been dominated by about six clubs - Wasps, Saracens, Bath, Leicester, Northampton and Harlequins, plus maybe Richmond, Gloucester and London Irish. It's just the natural shape of the game. Professionalism has brought a few extra teams to the top table, but none of them have established dominance and I doubt that they will. 

 

For all we hear about "development" the top level of the game remains firmly anchored to its roots, a circle of fee-paying schools and older Universities mostly located along the M4 and A10 from Cambridge to Bath. Players are imported from the South Seas (such as the Vunipola brothers) via the school system, or occasionally from further afield  (e.g. Maro Itoje via Harrow). 

 

The home player base is huge, but the quality of play is a sharply tapered pyramid and standards of play in the principal domestic competition are stagnant, with access to key players from the quite small domestic competitions in Wales and Scotland plus imports from SH countries. Saracens were pretty much a South African operation, not so long ago. 

 

You can see this in extremis, in the NFL. For all its manipulation, it was decades before teams like the Tampa Bay Buccaneers or New Orleans Saints won a Super Bowl. Several of its oldest teams, such as Buffalo Bills, Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions have never won the competition and Detroit still haven't appeared in a final. If an organisation with that level of structural control, plus that amount of money to spend can't achieve the goal of equally of outcome (because the NFL would LOVE every season to start on the basis that ANY team might win) then rugby union certainly won't achieve it. 

 

 

 

 

[88D]

Bristol lucky to get away with a win in that last quarter. Leicester have improved so much this year. Beginning to like Ellis Genge! Never thought I’d say that.

[gwrrob]

16 minutes ago, 88D said:

Bristol lucky to get away with a win in that last quarter. 

 

They didn't get away with a blatant attempt at cheating though.

[tigerburnie]

On 03/06/2021 at 07:23, rockershovel said:

 

As long as I can remember, the top level of the English game has been dominated by about six clubs - Wasps, Saracens, Bath, Leicester, Northampton and Harlequins, plus maybe Richmond, Gloucester and London Irish. It's just the natural shape of the game. Professionalism has brought a few extra teams to the top table, but none of them have established dominance and I doubt that they will. 

 

For all we hear about "development" the top level of the game remains firmly anchored to its roots, a circle of fee-paying schools and older Universities mostly located along the M4 and A10 from Cambridge to Bath. Players are imported from the South Seas (such as the Vunipola brothers) via the school system, or occasionally from further afield  (e.g. Maro Itoje via Harrow). 

 

The home player base is huge, but the quality of play is a sharply tapered pyramid and standards of play in the principal domestic competition are stagnant, with access to key players from the quite small domestic competitions in Wales and Scotland plus imports from SH countries. Saracens were pretty much a South African operation, not so long ago. 

 

You can see this in extremis, in the NFL. For all its manipulation, it was decades before teams like the Tampa Bay Buccaneers or New Orleans Saints won a Super Bowl. Several of its oldest teams, such as Buffalo Bills, Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions have never won the competition and Detroit still haven't appeared in a final. If an organisation with that level of structural control, plus that amount of money to spend can't achieve the goal of equally of outcome (because the NFL would LOVE every season to start on the basis that ANY team might win) then rugby union certainly won't achieve it. 

 

 

 

 

Depends how far you look back, Saracens were nowhere near the top before they began breaking the rules, one could argue and many do, that they have not achieved anything honestly. Harlequins have never achieved anything either, they have come close but always fell over at the final fence, one hit wonders happen. Coventry used to be one of the top English clubs before the money moved in, Bath and Leicester dominated for a long time, but even then there were allegations of "boot money" and that Bath went pro long before anyone else did. Wasps had a spell at the top, but have always struggled, apparently they are in huge debt now and walking a bankruptcy tightrope. Gloucester were a big club, so were Moseley, back in the days of Bill Beaumont, Fylde were a big club too. Northampton have had their moments, but never seem to be able to sustain momentum, same with Sale, Newcastle and London Irish. Sport is cyclical, you see it in soccer, where fashionable clubs can fall away for lean periods.

[rockershovel]

England 1981 5 Nations lineup 

 

Dusty Hare - Leicester

John Carleton - Orrell

Clive Woodward - Harlequins and Leicester

Paul Dodge - Leicester

Mike Slemen - Liverpool

John Horton - Bath

Steve Smith - Sale

Fran Cotton - Sale

Peter Wheeler - Leicester

Phil Blakeway - Gloucester

Bill Beaumont - Fylde

Maurice Colclough - Wasps

Mike Rafter - Bristol 

David Cooke - Harlequins

John Scott - Cardiff (no residency qualification then!)

 

30 caps seems to have been a good number, Beaumont achieved 34 in his career. 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2021 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

Looking into the available material, it's actually quite difficult to compile a statistical picture of rugby union in those very different times. The sport, and especially the club game received little media coverage (who remembers "Rugby Special"?) and much of the actual surviving coverage revolves around issues like the controversial 1974 Lions tour and its aftermath, the increasingly apocryphal 1970s Welsh side, the seemingly invincible New Zealand All Blacks, England's long spell in the doldrums in the 1970s and 1980s punctuated by Beaumont's single Grand Slam.

 

England were clearly an international force in the 1960s. John Pullin remains the only England captain to have beaten New Zealand with England, Lions and Barbarians, and was the first European national captain to beat Australia, New Zealand and South Africa (1972). Pullin also led the England team which visited Dublin in 1972, losing on the day but their record against the SH puts his much-reported post-match comment about "we're not much good, but at least we turned up" in a rather different perspective.  

 

My main recollection of the 1970s and 1980s is of a dull, stagnant game dominated by endemic kicking to touch and protracted bouts of loose scrummaging with the ball trapped in the pile. Much as I enjoyed playing, I rarely watched the game and have no recollection of watching club games in those days. International Rugby was ACCESSIBLE in a way it isn't now; I remember watching All Blacks v Cambridge University in 1978, at Grange Road more-or-less on a whim, the ground was very full but I don't recall people turned away, and I attended several Five Nations games around that time, probably with club trips. 

[tigerburnie]

I watched the Tigers during the early '70's, played during the later '70's and early '80's, retiring with a damaged knee which still gives me hell from time to time lol, I then watched the Tigers until moving away from Leicester in the early '90's. We used to arrange morning kick offs for matches when important games were on at Welford Road and we'd all then go to watch, often with our opponents and make a day/night of it, especially when touring sides played the Midlands, still remember Graham Mouries' all conquering All Blacks side, we didn't have tickets, you just turned up like you said. Only ever went to Twickenham for Tigers John Player Cup finals, never went to a 5 Nations, only internationals I have been to are at Murrayfield.

[Rivercider]

The one sporting event on TV that I always try to watch properly is the 6 Nations.

I remember first starting to watch the 5 Nations as a kid when got our first black and white TV back in the mid 1960s, Wales V Ireland being the most tricky fixture in shades of grey.

I had one year at grammar school in Exeter and played rugby for 2 terms, our games master played for Exeter as I have since found out. I suspect if the family had not moved away I might have continued to play rugby (to a very modest level).

Sport at the comprehensive school I moved to was hopelessly taught, rugby being the case of letting about twenty 13-14 year olds loose on the playing fields with little  supervision, which ending with some merciless bullying, and quite frankly violence.

I tend to mostly watch live sport rather than on TV. I estimate since about 1983 I have watched about 40-50 rugby matches, mostly involving Weston-super-Mare. In the same time I have seen perhaps 700 football matches, mostly Exeter City or W-s-M. I guess if I still lived in Exeter I would now be a Chiefs fan, although I have followed the results for the last 20 years I have never seen a game live.

 

I have followed the fortunes of rugby from a distance since the professional era, and it is interesting to see how there have been winners, and (mostly it seems) losers. Other clubs seem content to stay at a good competitve amateur level.

 

cheers

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Rivercider

[rockershovel]

I played at a steadily declining level through my 20s and 30s, working 4 week rotations or occasional longer absences meant I played for a lot of those euphemistically named "Exiles" or "Wanderers" XVs or simply received phone calls on a Friday evening or Saturday morning ... I was once invited to play for a team at Cambridge titled "Badgers", this was Boxing Day and as there was already a Presidents' XV and Chairmans XV playing, the Wanderers' opponents were named for the Presidents dog. 

[88D]

On 05/06/2021 at 17:16, gwrrob said:

 

They didn't get away with a blatant attempt at cheating though.

Yep, their bluff was called by the ref, but they left a bad taste in the mouth. There was a similar incident in France v Wales final minutes a few years back. Once again, the cheating proved effective.

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

I played during the later '70's and early '80's, retiring with a damaged knee which still gives me hell from time to time lol, 

 

We must be about the same age then. Got the T-shirt as regards the knee although it was rib cartilage problems that was the direct cause of retirement. Knee OK so long as I keep control of the weight.

[tigerburnie]

I didn't start playing until in my mid 20's so I might be an even older "old git/coffin dodger" than you think lol.

[tigerburnie]

Last games of the regular season with a lot still to play for, top 4 are still fighting over a home semi final for the playoffs and a lot of sides looking for a top 8 position to qualify for the European Champions Cup for next year. Been a much more open season this year, still not sure who will end up champions possibly Sale, they seem to have some momentum, whilst Bristol are losing it. Exeter are a solid side, but not as convincing this term and whilst Quins have scored heavily, they seem to gift points away too.

[88D]

3 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

Last games of the regular season with a lot still to play for, top 4 are still fighting over a home semi final for the playoffs and a lot of sides looking for a top 8 position to qualify for the European Champions Cup for next year. Been a much more open season this year, still not sure who will end up champions possibly Sale, they seem to have some momentum, whilst Bristol are losing it. Exeter are a solid side, but not as convincing this term and whilst Quins have scored heavily, they seem to gift points away too.

Exeter, you heard it here.

[tigerburnie]

What's irritating is that Tigers had the opportunity to beat all of them, but only managed to beat the Quins, hopefully we will kick on next season and at least win our home encounters.

[tigerburnie]

Great way to end the regular season with an away win at Wasps, 6th place is acceptable after the past few years of finishing bottom but one, proper Champions Cup rugby to look forward to again as well.

[Dave Hunt]

At least I can now wear my Tigers shirt at the pub without comments like, "Do you get that out of the bottom drawer?"

 

Dave

[rockershovel]

One thing I would say about Tigers shirts, is that they are widely recognised. I've got a fairly elderly one in my offshore kitbag and in a business where you meet a lot of Brits, French and Italians in your travels, it has been an ice-breaker and conversation piece in some pretty remote places. 

[tigerburnie]

Semi finals of the pay offs this weekend, I would quite like Sale and Harlequins to win, but doubt that will happen, though Exeter have big problems with two keys players banned for dangerous play could just swing the game away from them.

[grandadbob]

All I can say (that is printable) is “wow” 

[tigerburnie]

I thought you'd be along GDB.............................

[88D]

I’m sure there’s a few Leicester supporters here, so the news is that Tom Youngs has only got a two week ban for his misdemeanour after the Bristol match. He’s got off lightly, but, in my view, quite rightly because any neutral party would have sympathised with him. 

[tigerburnie]

Neither the ref nor the citing officer put in a report, seems there was a concerted effort on social media to get the investigation going, fair cop and he pleaded guilty, wonder if anything will happen to Pat Lam?