Rugby Union

[rockershovel]

35 minutes ago, grandadbob said:

@tigerburnie One of the worst I’ve had the misfortune to watch in over 60 years but all credit to the Scots who played out of their skins and I think the score flattered England.

 

Oh, I don’t know. The late John Pullins’ stats read P49, W15, L28, D6. I remember watching some embarrassingly bad rugby from the Men In White in the mid-80s, again in 2006, and the abject performance against SA in the 2007 RWC spread panic among the Twickenham “great and good”. 

 

That was pretty poor, and the Scots delivered high-quality execution of a well-thought-out game plan (well known to be England’s Achilles heel) but this team can do better, and they know it. 

 

Next week will be interesting. France simply strolled past Italy earlier today, and England tend to make heavy weather of that fixture, although Italy have never seriously looked like winning it. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by rockershovel

[BoD]

When England’s plan A didn’t work they flawlessly switched to plan A and in the end even managed to introduce plan A.  
 

Fair play though, the Scots were better in every department. 

[tigerburnie]

Never mind GDB the real game is next week Quinns v Tigers should hopefully show some better quality.

[iak]

15 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Nice factoids on the BBC report

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/rugby-union/54769922

 

Aye and many of us were a lot younger...

Wibble! 

[tigerburnie]

As according to my ancestry I'm related to a King of Scotland I can claim my team won.......................I'm also seemingly related to several Kings of England. Owain Glendower of Wales and some of William the conquerors mates, so as long as England beat the Italians I'll be on the winning side as I haven't found any Roman blood in me.

[rockershovel]

Interesting closing remarks from David Flatman, providing commentary on the Italy game. This tournament will be too compromised by external circumstances to produce change, but the murmurings against Italy haven’t gone away, and Georgia’s P4, W0, L4 performance in the autumn didn’t advance their candidacy. 

 

I await Japan vs Lions with great interest, I’m sure it will take place in some shape or form. If I were to nominate a “developing team”, the Chrysanthemums would be top of my list. They beat SA in 2015 RWC, and were beaten to 2nd place in their pool by Scotland on bonus points; I was much impressed by what I saw of the 2019 tournament and they beat Scotland and Ireland to win their pool. If they can do well against Lions, and with the resources available to their Top League, they must be knocking on the door...

 

[tigerburnie]

Italy have beaten all the 6 nations sides except England, so on their day who knows, I'd like to see 2 European leagues with relegation and promotion, say 5 in each league, that would spice things up a bit Wooden Spoon and relegation might zest up the game.

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

Italy have beaten all the 6 nations sides except England, so on their day who knows, I'd like to see 2 European leagues with relegation and promotion, say 5 in each league, that would spice things up a bit Wooden Spoon and relegation might zest up the game.

 

Sorry, that ship has sailed, long since. Italy clearly don’t have the structure to support a team; what purpose would a revolving door of “wooden spoonists” serve? Because that’s the most likely effect of a promotion/relegation structure, on the evidence; it would undermine Scotland, to no useful purpose, I think. 

 

Are you saying that a tournament which routinely produces games like Scotland’s display yesterday, or today’s spectacle of a 14-man Ireland striving for the winning try past 80 minutes, needs “spicing up”? 

 

I’m disinclined to put money on sports in present circumstances, but my best guess based on this weekend is another whitewash; a dull, 15-point slugging match against England and 25 plus margins against the Celtic nation’s. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by rockershovel

[tigerburnie]

You've just argued against your own statement, you don't want Italy as they are not good enough, but you don't want to dangle a carrot for other European Nations, bit like casting the Championship adrift a few years ago denying Exeter their chance at the top table. What you really want I think is a Harlem Globe trotters type of thing with your Pacific Islands team in it, which of course is an insult to the Islands proud tradition of individuality.

[rockershovel]

9 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

You've just argued against your own statement, you don't want Italy as they are not good enough, but you don't want to dangle a carrot for other European Nations, bit like casting the Championship adrift a few years ago denying Exeter their chance at the top table. What you really want I think is a Harlem Globe trotters type of thing with your Pacific Islands team in it, which of course is an insult to the Islands proud tradition of individuality.

 

Let’s be realistic. Sides with genuine potential, develop. Sides with insufficient potential, don’t develop, however many chances they are given. Sir Clive Woodward said as much, regarding Italy in 2017 - look it up. 

 

Argentina were clearly ready to move up, and look how much it has required of them. Right now, Japan are looking good. On the evidence of the RWC and 8N, Fiji are the front runners among the South Seas teams. 

 

Sorry, but Italy have had their chance. There are teams queueing at the door with more to offer, it’s their turn. 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

I’ve been looking into Italy’s history, interesting reading. 

 

They appear to have flourished briefly in the early days of professionalism, as sponsors and investors from the round-ball world ventured into the scene. However the club game didn’t succeed commercially (sound familiar?) and without that, the money ebbed away as quickly as it had come in. 

 

Italy had, meanwhile, benefited from a decision to expand the 6N tournament. The purpose of this was to provide more tv coverage and sponsorship opportunities, eliminate the “off week” which was an inherent characteristic of a tournament with five teams, and provide a European “derby” to offset the traditional “Triple Crown” which France weren’t part of, they being relative late-comers to the tournament (the actual Championship seems to have been something of an afterthought to many supporters, the Triple Crown and Grand Slam being the main focus; the “wooden spoon” meant losing all matches, and tied Championships were not regarded as particularly important). 

 

Various vested interests wanted to expand the tournament into a more conventional format, with Italy as the obvious contender. Whether Italy could sustain themselves, in the best interests of the tournament, doesn’t appear to have been a consideration. 

 

However the sport has moved on, leaving Italy falling further behind. It’s increasingly clear that they don’t have the necessary structure. Japan’s achievements in RWC 2019, and Fiji’s efforts in RWC 2019 and sole outing in the 8N suggests that the European Nations Cup is on a similar level to the Americas Cup, a second-Tier tournament. There is an obvious clash of interests between the promoters of the 6N and any future 8N, and a further clash of interests between the club and national structures in U.K. and France. The long-established Autumn Internationals also pose a clash of interests, while the long-established and popular Triple Crown and Grand Slam would be eroded by a pool type structure - indeed, probably couldn’t exist at all. 

 

Geographically, any such tournament would be highly problematical, to say the least.

 

So the question is, whether to jettison over a century of organic development in order to pursue a commercial agenda whose principal beneficiaries would be a small group of second tier countries.  There is an obvious alternative, to offer a 6N Wild Card place to a small group of developing sides, possibly on a rotational basis, with each 6N country hosting one game. The “guest” side receives a worthwhile payday (including the players, a well-known problem with South Seas sides), the sponsors get an improved tournament with more consistency in quality, and the (already over-long) international calendar isn’t further extended. 

 

It’s increasingly clear that the tide is going out for Italy, and second-Tier European sides generally. Too many influential voices are murmuring on a similar theme. South Africa won’t be allowed to join, because that would undermine the SH top tier. Who’s left? 

[tigerburnie]

Not just my idea then

'Italy aren't good enough' - Warburton calls for Six Nations promotion and relegation

7 Feb 20217 Feb 2021

From the section Rugby Union

Former Wales captain Sam Warburton says Italy are "not good enough" and so promotion and relegation should be introduced to the Six Nations, giving teams like Georgia the opportunity to compete.

Italy's thrashing by France in the 2021 Six Nations opener was their 28th consecutive defeat in the competition.

[rockershovel]

7 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

Not just my idea then

'Italy aren't good enough' - Warburton calls for Six Nations promotion and relegation

7 Feb 20217 Feb 2021

From the section Rugby Union

Former Wales captain Sam Warburton says Italy are "not good enough" and so promotion and relegation should be introduced to the Six Nations, giving teams like Georgia the opportunity to compete.

Italy's thrashing by France in the 2021 Six Nations opener was their 28th consecutive defeat in the competition.

 

Not a new idea at all. The only real question is what to do next, and how to go about it. 

 

Promotion and relegation avoids the alternative, which amounts to either leaving Italy alone with a revolver and a glass of something fortifying, or just dropping them outright. The problem is that if you open up to Eastern Europe, what do you actually get? Looking at promotion and relegation elsewhere, the tendency to create a revolving door of “the usual suspects” is commonplace. I also believe Scotland would suffer greatly by any such action. 

 

Reverting to 5 Nations isn’t really an option at this stage, and moving to a pool format would be hugely unpopular with supporters, I think. The international calendar is already too long. 

 

There are a limited number of contenders who seem to be improving under their own steam, with potential for more. Allowing Italy in indefinitely, as full-fledged members, was clearly a mistake which shouldn’t be repeated.

 

lets see what develops. 

[tigerburnie]

Those who enjoy travelling to the away games love going to Italy and would no doubt be up for trips to other destinations, though maybe not Siberia at this time of year.

[BoD]

4 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

Italy's thrashing by France in the 2021 Six Nations opener was their 28th consecutive defeat in the competition.

 

That run may well end on Saturday.

[rockershovel]

17 minutes ago, BoD said:

 

That run may well end on Saturday.

 

Nooooooo... Italy don’t know how to beat England. Both sides have very similar styles of play, except that England a rather better at it. Italy rarely kick the ball. England’s indiscipline will be less important because Italy don’t have much success with penalties. Watch for a dull slugging match, England by 12 or 15 points and Italy to score an unconverted try around 50mins. 

 

England very rarely lose twice running. That nice Mr Jones will be spreading joy and ease amongst them. 

[BoD]

18 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

That nice Mr Jones will be spreading joy and ease amongst them. 

 

Having freely admitting that he hadn't prepared the team well enough I know what his next statement should have been.

However, I also think that, to a certain extent, the 'elephants in the room' are the Sarries players.

[rockershovel]

45 minutes ago, BoD said:

 

Having freely admitting that he hadn't prepared the team well enough I know what his next statement should have been.

However, I also think that, to a certain extent, the 'elephants in the room' are the Sarries players.

 

He could hardly say anything else, given the question. Scotland definitely pose particular problems for England; given that they have no realistic expectation of winning overall, they tend to treat one game as though it were the World Cup Final. They also display considerable tactical intelligence on the pitch, never an England strong point. 

 

I await this tournament with interest; I think there will be a very different line-up by next year, with several of the “Old Guard” being replaced. 

 

That said, it’s going to be another strange tournament. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by rockershovel

[88D]

On 07/02/2021 at 12:22, tigerburnie said:

As according to my ancestry I'm related to a King of Scotland I can claim my team won.......................I'm also seemingly related to several Kings of England. Owain Glendower of Wales and some of William the conquerors mates, so as long as England beat the Italians I'll be on the winning side as I haven't found any Roman blood in me.

Which King of Scotland is this? The Idi Amin sort ( insert emoji here of your choice)?

[88D]

On 08/02/2021 at 16:21, rockershovel said:

 

He could hardly say anything else, given the question. Scotland definitely pose particular problems for England; given that they have no realistic expectation of winning overall, they tend to treat one game as though it were the World Cup Final. They also display considerable tactical intelligence on the pitch, never an England strong point. 

 

I await this tournament with interest; I think there will be a very different line-up by next year, with several of the “Old Guard” being replaced. 

 

That said, it’s going to be another strange tournament. 

I think Scotland have been developing a good team over the years. They have been let down in specific positions in the past ( eg, prop and centre) but have filled these spots now. It didn’t surprise me that they won, but the completeness of their performance did. It will be interesting to see whether EJ plays the same guys to develop form, or new guys to be blooded against Italy.

[tigerburnie]

Scotland's perennial problem is lack of depth, a couple of injuries often sees them stretched, whereas England have an embarrassment of riches but don't seem to know how to use them.

[rockershovel]

13 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

Scotland's perennial problem is lack of depth, a couple of injuries often sees them stretched, whereas England have an embarrassment of riches but don't seem to know how to use them.

 

England inevitably default to their base position of “underperforming at great cost” because their management structure don’t regard the national team as a priority. Twickenham isn’t referred to as a “nest of vipers” for nothing. 

The arrival of professionalism inevitably exposed the lack of leadership and purpose at the top, and they have never progressed beyond that. A serious conflict of interest was allowed to develop between senior clubs, backed by investors from the round-ball game and the RFU and there is no will to resolve it. 

 

The senior clubs failed from the first, to develop their vision of a structure in which the clubs control the bulk of the revenue. They have evolved into a structure by which they constantly attempt to use their control of the players’ contracts to extract more revenue from the RFU. 

 

The RFU are principally focussed upon preserving their highly paid, over-large bureaucracy, the “blazers”, whilst appeasing the clubs, who for a long while were strongly represented there (notably by Rob Andrew, whose activities at Newcastle in the formative days of professionalism are self-explanatory). The appointment of John Steele, and his departure within months defies explanation, except in these terms. 

 

That’s why successful England coaches, like SCW, inevitably come into conflict with the structure, and don’t originate from, or pass back into the Club game. It’s why England followed their World Championship with a succession of coaches from within their structure, who had no previous form as Test level coaches. They could have had Jake White in 2003, but didn’t - nor did they retain SCW. 

 

Andy Farrell did not come from a Union background, and spent a period with an established Test coach in Ireland before his present appointment. Brian Ashton’s only previous Test experience was a brief, unsuccessful period in Ireland. Stuart Lancaster was promoted beyond his ability, kept in post too long and eventually moved on to exercising his undoubted abilities at Irish club level. Martin Johnson has never coached, before or since. Andy Robinson was notably unsuccessful, didn’t achieve much more in Scotland, reverted to club level and is presently managing Romania. The most successful English coach of the modern era, Shaun Edwards, is another outsider who originated outside Union and has spent his coaching career elsewhere, for (as he openly stated when joining France) lack of a sufficient interest from Twickenham. 

 

Eddie Jones is an outsider, with undoubted abilities and no interest in the club scene, because they simply can’t pay him enough to attract his attention. He lacks previous consistent form as a top level Test coach, and has an obvious professional incentive to do well and move on. Right now, the RFU are driven by the need to achieve at Test and RWC level, because their revenues depend upon it; but the structural problems remain.

Edited February 11, 2021 by rockershovel

[tigerburnie]

I note "skippy" has done some tinkering for the Italy game, at least with a proper 10 playing at flyhalf there's half a chance of some rugby, though that depends on whether those players who have not played any rugby are still blowing out of their rear ends after 15 minutes. Could have picked a side on form of course, but that would never do would it, pass me a prawn sarnie would you.

[rockershovel]

9 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

I note "skippy" has done some tinkering for the Italy game, at least with a proper 10 playing at flyhalf there's half a chance of some rugby, though that depends on whether those players who have not played any rugby are still blowing out of their rear ends after 15 minutes. Could have picked a side on form of course, but that would never do would it, pass me a prawn sarnie would you.

 

Fast Eddie certainly resolved a question which had baffled his predecessors - Farrell or Ford? The answer, of course was “both” but that creates the problem of being dependent upon two players. Farrell is, in effect, impossible to drop as Captain, but his tactical limitations are obvious in that role. Neither is replaceable, on the evidence. 

 

Youngs is the man against Italy. Why let them beat up a developing young player? 

[grandadbob]

Don't know if anyone's seen this but they've scrapped relegation this season and one team will be promoted from Championship to make 13 in the Preniership.  Presumably so Saracens can come back?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56044619