Rugby Union

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

Georgia have just played England, in a game in which a front row forward scored a hat-trick of tries. I don’t know what your definition of being made a laughing stock might be, but that comes close in my book. 

 

An area of the game that has evolved. Back when I was playing, it was quite rare for any of the front five to score. But then we did not get the throw in after a penalty.

[rockershovel]

42 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

An area of the game that has evolved. Back when I was playing, it was quite rare for any of the front five to score. But then we did not get the throw in after a penalty.

 

It’s still unusual. Steve Thompson scored three Test tries in total. Phil Vickery scored two; Dylan Hartley, four. Jason Leonard, one try in 114 appearances. Dan Cole, a total of four. 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

how about inviting the highest-ranked team not involved in the SH Championship? 

Erm, this year that would be South Africa...

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

An area of the game that has evolved. Back when I was playing, it was quite rare for any of the front five to score. But then we did not get the throw in after a penalty.

Good point Joseph. Down here, hookers rank highly in the try-scoring lists because of the popularity of rolling mauls after lineouts on the 5m line.

 

I still don't understand how a rolling maul is legal...

[rockershovel]

47 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Erm, this year that would be South Africa...

 

How are SA not involved in the SH Championship? Isn’t that Australia, NZ, SA and Argentina? It would be Japan, as the only 2019 RWC quarter-finalist not involved in the 6N or SH Championship. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

51 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Good point Joseph. Down here, hookers rank highly in the try-scoring lists because of the popularity of rolling mauls after lineouts on the 5m line.

 

I still don't understand how a rolling maul is legal...

 

Law 16 is quite clear https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=16&language=EN

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

 

How are SA not involved in the SH Championship? Isn’t that Australia, NZ, SA and Argentina? It would be Japan, as the only 2019 RWC quarter-finalist not involved in the 6N or SH Championship. 

SA withdrew at the last minute for reasons known only to them. It is well-known that they aspire to play in a Europe-centric competition for time zone reasons.

[john dew]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

 

How are SA not involved in the SH Championship? Isn’t that Australia, NZ, SA and Argentina? It would be Japan, as the only 2019 RWC quarter-finalist not involved in the 6N or SH Championship. 

 

They dropped out of this year's SH championship because of Covid.

 

Its because of Covid that the prevoiusly arranged NH Autumn Internationals had to be cancelled and the current substitute competition hastily arranged to at least generate a little income for the home unions.
 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by john dew

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

 

Law 16 is quite clear https://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=16&language=EN

I know but I don't understand why Law 16 allows players to shield the ball carrier. It's not very different from the "flying wedge" that was outlawed years ago.

[john dew]

7 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

SA withdrew at the last minute for reasons known only to them. It is well-known that they aspire to play in a Europe-centric competition for time zone reasons.

Ah you may be right about their long term aspirations re time zones and travel..... but I thought they also linked it to covid.....

Edited November 23, 2020 by john dew

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, john dew said:

They dropped out of this year's SH championship because of Covid.

Ostensibly...

[rockershovel]

Re various, above;

 

- SA have been playing games for years, regarding their participation in a NH tournament. It makes sense in terms of time zones, but not in terms of travel. What incentive do NH sides have, to enter into such a commitment? It doesn’t affect SA existing commitment to the SH Championship. 

 

- the “Autumn Tournament” was and is, an obvious outcome of the ongoing efforts to hijack the 6N revenues by broadcasting interests. It has made common cause with the ongoing efforts to expand the tournament and thereby, its broadcasting revenues, and to increase ticket prices (particularly in respect of less attractive matches such as Italy). Nothing in its publicity material suggests that it is a single event. It is a direct attempt by Amazon to substitute an event they control, for the existing practice of SH touring sides visiting European venues, supported by those interests who wish to expand the tournament indefinitely (and make no mistake about it, England RFU in particular would happily sell all their matches to pay-per-view, but their last attempt to do so ended badly, with reduced viewing and consequent issues with their overall sponsors) 

 

- Laws 10.4(n) and 16 clearly define the “Flying wedge” in terms of binding before making contact. Specifically, the maul is defined in terms of contact from the defending side; if there is no attempt to tackle the ball-carrier, there is no maul and if the ball is not carried by the leading player, then obstruction and/or dangerous play is taking place. 

 

- I can’t comment on the SH club game, we don’t see it here but rolling mauls from 5m line-outs are rarely successful at any level. England’s infamous defeat against Wales in the 2015 RWC would be a good example. 

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

It doesn’t affect SA existing commitment to the SH Championship. 

We shall see!

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

SH touring sides visiting European venues

Quite impracticable this year for obvious reasons.

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Specifically, the maul is defined in terms of contact from the defending side

Agreed. Nevertheless, I'd like to see a change whereby once the maul has moved something like its own length then the ball must be played.

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I can’t comment on the SH club game, we don’t see it here but rolling mauls from 5m line-outs are rarely successful at any level.

Driving rather than rolling mauls would be a better term. Once the ball is with the hindmost player it's virtually impossible to defend. The Brumbies won Super Rugby AU this year by using it effectively and frequently. Good luck to them, but it's not entertaining to my eyes.

[tigerburnie]

15 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

Who’s talking about inviting amateurs from anywhere? There are plenty of NH, and for that matter SH based South Seas players in the various professional leagues, and quite a few national sides. There is ample precedent for South Seas based Barbarians sides, playing at international level in the NH. I don’t see Italians and Georgians playing at that level, outside their domestic leagues, in any significant numbers. The 6N is played over 6 weekends and I don’t see any reason why an invitation side couldn’t be assembled for the tournament, if the will existed to do it. 

 

 

 

Been tried before and achieved nothing for the Islands teams.

Pacific Islanders rugby union team - Wikipedia

Edited November 24, 2020 by tigerburnie

[Joseph_Pestell]

29 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

Been tried before and achieved nothing for the Islands teams.

Pacific Islanders rugby union team - Wikipedia

 

And here we enter the murky questions around residency qualifications. The Pacific Islands nations are being pillaged of their best players. Even if you put a Pacific Islands team together for various international competitions, they would get very little success while foreign clubs and nations can offer their players much better financial rewards.

[St Enodoc]

2 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

residency qualifications.

Today's papers carried the news that Tom Lynagh (son of Michael) will join the Queensland Reds when he leaves school in England. Should he make the grade, he would be eligible to play for Australia (through his father), Italy (through his mother) or England (through residency).

 

Which would you choose?

[Joseph_Pestell]

11 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I know but I don't understand why Law 16 allows players to shield the ball carrier. It's not very different from the "flying wedge" that was outlawed years ago.

 

This was raised with me many times by a French rugby enthusiast friend. I could explain the rule to him but does that make it right?

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, tigerburnie said:

Been tried before and achieved nothing for the Islands teams.

Pacific Islanders rugby union team - Wikipedia

 

... which rather begs the question, of what is being sought to be achieved? To me, the only viable solution would be that a team be assembled, for the purposes of competing in 6N, properly funded and with a proper Test coach. It’s clear that the South Seas national unions have no will to solve the problem of player remuneration, which is at the heart of the matter.

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

We shall see!

Quite impracticable this year for obvious reasons.

Agreed. Nevertheless, I'd like to see a change whereby once the maul has moved something like its own length then the ball must be played.

Driving rather than rolling mauls would be a better term. Once the ball is with the hindmost player it's virtually impossible to defend. The Brumbies won Super Rugby AU this year by using it effectively and frequently. Good luck to them, but it's not entertaining to my eyes.

 

I’m well aware that there is little, or no will to recognise that such a thing might be possible, but the SH sides have something to learn from the NH on this. England and France use rolling, or driving mauls to some effect but they don’t dominate the game. I don’t recall it being Australia’s game-winning tactic in 2019 RWC, or the preceding England tour? Nor do the numerous SH imports dominate the Premiership by such tactics. 

 

I’d be interested to hear more about SH Line-Out play at club level. One reason rolling mauls from line-outs are problematic in NH play, is the practice of lifting high and contesting the ball in the air. At that point, an attempt to form a maul tends to turn into some sort of offside infringement, or dangerous play. The ball is put back to the scrum-half from mid-air, and the maul can’t form. 

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

This was raised with me many times by a French rugby enthusiast friend. I could explain the rule to him but does that make it right?

 

Depends on what you regard rugby union as comprising. SH teams, with their fast, hard pitches and strong tradition of players participating in both codes, tend to be much more RL influenced than NH teams, for whom RL is a minor sport played in neglected corners of the North-West. 

 

Personally, if I wanted to watch RL, I’d watch RL and not bother with Union. The respective ticket sales and tv revenues indicate the popular view. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

33 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

Depends on what you regard rugby union as comprising. SH teams, with their fast, hard pitches and strong tradition of players participating in both codes, tend to be much more RL influenced than NH teams, for whom RL is a minor sport played in neglected corners of the North-West. 

 

Personally, if I wanted to watch RL, I’d watch RL and not bother with Union. The respective ticket sales and tv revenues indicate the popular view. 

 

Like you, I am totally a Union man. I admire the athleticism of League players but the game is desperately dull tactically.

 

As a former forward, playing all front row positions and a couple of games at 7, I appreciate the skills involved in forward play and would not want to see that part of the game disappear. But how do you envisage it going? You are critical of Georgia for allowing three tries to be scored by Jamie George (in reality collective forward effort) but this is inevitable with 5m lineouts after penalties. Perhaps these lineouts should be moved back to 10 metres from the line or even 22 metres?.

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Like you, I am totally a Union man. I admire the athleticism of League players but the game is desperately dull tactically.

 

As a former forward, playing all front row positions and a couple of games at 7, I appreciate the skills involved in forward play and would not want to see that part of the game disappear. But how do you envisage it going? You are critical of Georgia for allowing three tries to be scored by Jamie George (in reality collective forward effort) but this is inevitable with 5m lineouts after penalties. Perhaps these lineouts should be moved back to 10 metres from the line or even 22 metres?.

 

There didn’t seem to be anything inevitable about England scoring against Wales from a 5m lineout in 2015! Jamie George scored three tries because Georgia weren’t up to the job, England completely demolished their forwards. See my comments above about line-out play in general. 

 

This is why the England v Italy game is so dull, the Azzuri have a big, strong pack which is difficult to manhandle off the ball, but too slow and limited tactically to outwit - they just don’t respond to the cues. New Zealand would run rings around them, scoring at will (have they ever met?) but England don’t seem able to execute with that degree of accuracy and finesse. So England (who basically want the bonus point, and no injuries) rely on a quick opening try, maybe a drop goal or penalty, and a flurry of scoring when the Italians run out of fitness around the 60 minute mark. 

 

I regret the loss of the competition for the ball at the put-in, and the excessive number of penalties, but I understand the reasons. I miss the push-over try, the three-man scrum (another lost art) and the tactical wheel, but so it goes. I don’t dispute that this essentially represents the view of the game as a spectator sport for present and former players, but I don’t care in the slightest whether the game is accessible to Joe Soap, who has never played. Nor am I interested in the least, in the development of tv viewing figures in Whereveristan. 

 

Looking ahead, I think forwards must, and will become more athletic all round.

- The hooker will continue to develop as a third centre, as demonstrated by Steve Thompson and Jamie George.

- Mauling will continue to develop, and the goal-Line defence will remain hard to pass - look how often teams are held out, these days.

- Locks must surely be at the limits of useful height - American Football, the most intense hot-house of specialised athletic development, struggles to make effective use of players over 6’6” in height.

- I’d like to see rucks become quicker, less of the posing over the ball while the scrum-half marshals the centres, who haven’t reacted sufficiently quickly. NZ are showing the way here. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by rockershovel

[tigerburnie]

Sounds like you were weaned on watching the Harlem Globetrotters to me, I can remember Gloucester driving a maul almost the entire length of the pitch and thoroughly enjoyed it, even though I'm no fan of the mob from Castle Grim. Rugby is a very different game these days the only thing they've not changed is the shape of the corner flags, bring back rucking, ban lifting in lineouts and send off any scrum half that can't put the ball down the middle of a scrum say I.

[teaky]

Some sad news today.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55056643

 

A great player.

[88D]

20 hours ago, teaky said:

Some sad news today.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55056643

 

A great player.

Yep, a fantastic player yet only 5’6” tall. He did well against the likes of Lomu! RIP, Christoffe