Rugby Union

[Joseph_Pestell]

11 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Two world class tries from Johnny May, but what is that thing on his face? England paying much more attention to where their kicks are going, which is long overdue; and they seem to have rucking penalties well in hand. Maro Itoje dominant in the lineouts. England certainly have it in them to win this, but Ireland must never be taken for granted. 

 

Very poor picture quality from Channel 4, though. 

 

Not having any picture quality issues here.

 

Hopefully the moustache is just there for Movember.

 

I don't usually watch womens' rugby. But I caught the second half of the England-France game and that was excellent with great phases of play from both teams.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Not having any picture quality issues here.

 

Hopefully the moustache is just there for Movember.

 

I don't usually watch womens' rugby. But I caught the second half of the England-France game and that was excellent with great phases of play from both teams.

 

No specific issues with the picture, just low resolution. 

 

What a monster Haskell looks! 

 

Eddie Jones certainly had Ireland’s game plan weighed up. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by rockershovel

[tigerburnie]

Leicester Tigers won.....................yahoo

[teaky]

1 hour ago, tigerburnie said:

Leicester Tigers won.....................yahoo

And they're 2nd in the table!

[Tony Davis]

15 minutes ago, teaky said:

And they're 2nd in the table!

Let's hope it continues

[teaky]

2 minutes ago, Tony Davis said:

Let's hope it continues

I'm not sure about that.  Tigerburnie might become unbearable.

[BoD]

A double yahoo from me .... Falcons won too.

 

I was seriously worried that they would be embarrassed, especially as they haven’t played since the beginning of March and even during the match was convinced that lack of match fitness would tell before the end.  Instead I was  a little disappointed that we didn’t get a fourth ‘bonus point’ try.

[tigerburnie]

21 minutes ago, teaky said:

I'm not sure about that.  Tigerburnie might become unbearable.

Might become........................................................?

[rockershovel]

Abandoned the attempt to watch Scotland v France when the image froze completely around 62 minutes. The French scrum and rolling maul were impressive and the Scottish defence against the French on the goal line was exciting (an important reason I can’t summon much interest in the women’s game, rugby without the forward play is just rugby league) but on the whole, a very scrappy game. 

 

The sooner this tournament is shown the door, the better. 21 points from penalties in the first half alone, doesn’t advertise quality rugby. The “highlights” of the Georgia game were a waste of electrons, Italy v England was a sorry mismatch and Fiji are well on the way to being no-shows. Time to get back to proper Autumn Internationals, I think. 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

Abandoned the attempt to watch Scotland v France when the image froze completely around 62 minutes. The French scrum and rolling maul were impressive and the Scottish defence against the French on the goal line was exciting (an important reason I can’t summon much interest in the women’s game, rugby without the forward play is just rugby league) but on the whole, a very scrappy game. 

 

The sooner this tournament is shown the door, the better. 21 points from penalties in the first half alone, doesn’t advertise quality rugby. The “highlights” of the Georgia game were a waste of electrons, Italy v England was a sorry mismatch and Fiji are well on the way to being no-shows. Time to get back to proper Autumn Internationals, I think. 

 

 

Any rugby is better than no rugby IMHO.

[rockershovel]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Any rugby is better than no rugby IMHO.

 

Well, true enough... but the delayed 2020 6N has just finished, the 2021 6N is only 11 weeks away and there is the small matter of the Premiership season being played. There’s also the SH Championship, which we see almost nothing of. Over-playing of International players is known to be a problem, and there needs to be a balance between Club and Country in that respect. 

 

I don't really see a lack of available rugby, there. 

 

I don't really understand the structure of this tournament, except ensuring that a predetermined number of matches are played and maximum use is made of cheap, second-tier teams. The tv coverage makes it painfully obvious that it is really about Amazon trying to intrude on the 6N market, without worrying much about the quality of the product. 

 

No, we don’t need this tournament. It’s been tried, serves no useful purpose and I’d much rather see proper Autumn Internationals (ie, top class touring teams we don’t otherwise see, and second tier touring teams which have established good reputations). Given the requirement to conclude the 2020 6N and the wider problems generally, the break would have been welcomed. The original schedule, England in Japan and Fiji in U.K. (which is why they were available for this tournament) would have been far better. Come to that, Japan vs Fiji would be well worth staging at least once. 

 

Regarding the women’s game, good luck to ‘em but as an alternative to top-tier international coverage? Really? Look beyond the BBC and the Guardian, and the level of coverage demonstrates the general interest in what is, after all, an amateur-level standard of play in a game which amounts to 15-a-side Sevens. 

[rockershovel]

Developing the theme of Internationals.... the IRB has never really got to grips with a problem created by the World Cup. The original World Cup was played against a backdrop of a sport which had a generally understood system of tiered teams. There was a (largely) closed group of top tier nations, and successive outer circles. 

 

The tournament was expanded for purely commercial reasons. Along the way, the fiction was created that “all teams are equal”, because who would pay top money to see mismatches? This is because Test Rugby is a premium product, in a way which soccer isn’t - top tier club soccer is worth at least as much as the international game, and takes place almost continuously. Look at the commercial worth of players like Wayne Rooney, or Paul Gascogne; players who attracted huge sums of money without ever winning a major international trophy, or playing the World Cup beyond the quarter-finals. 

 

The FA Cup doesn’t have to deal with this, because there are no International Caps at stake, the status of the games derives from the competition. Who cares about the minor sides eliminated in the qualifying rounds of the round-ball World Cup? 

 

Rugby isn’t able to do this. Sides like Namibia turn up at RWC for their 106-0 drubbings (to be fair, a Namibian International who has played against NZ will probably never pay for a pint again, and it’s probably most of the Namibian RFU revenue for the next three years) and it’s just part of the game. However it does cause problems in terms of the “development” agenda. 

 

Italy, by now are clearly a busted flush in development terms. Georgia don’t seem to be any better. But, the “suits” want Six Nations, not Five so the farce continues. Argentina have made it work, but they were generally reckoned to deserve it long ago and their issues revolved around their Home Union attitude to professionalism. Japan are an interesting case; they have definitely brought something different to the table. They might not be a top tier team, strictly speaking, but I’d reckon that if the IRB offered them a decent amount of money to organise a regional tournament, we’d see something worth seeing. But I dare say Japan would drive a hard bargain in return, and good luck to ‘em if they did. 

 

If the IRB seriously cared about development, they’d do something about the shameful treatment of South Seas players by their Home Unions. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

56 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Developing the theme of Internationals.... the IRB has never really got to grips with a problem created by the World Cup. The original World Cup was played against a backdrop of a sport which had a generally understood system of tiered teams. There was a (largely) closed group of top tier nations, and successive outer circles. 

 

The tournament was expanded for purely commercial reasons. Along the way, the fiction was created that “all teams are equal”, because who would pay top money to see mismatches? This is because Test Rugby is a premium product, in a way which soccer isn’t - top tier club soccer is worth at least as much as the international game, and takes place almost continuously. Look at the commercial worth of players like Wayne Rooney, or Paul Gascogne; players who attracted huge sums of money without ever winning a major international trophy, or playing the World Cup beyond the quarter-finals. 

 

The FA Cup doesn’t have to deal with this, because there are no International Caps at stake, the status of the games derives from the competition. Who cares about the minor sides eliminated in the qualifying rounds of the round-ball World Cup? 

 

Rugby isn’t able to do this. Sides like Namibia turn up at RWC for their 106-0 drubbings (to be fair, a Namibian International who has played against NZ will probably never pay for a pint again, and it’s probably most of the Namibian RFU revenue for the next three years) and it’s just part of the game. However it does cause problems in terms of the “development” agenda. 

 

Italy, by now are clearly a busted flush in development terms. Georgia don’t seem to be any better. But, the “suits” want Six Nations, not Five so the farce continues. Argentina have made it work, but they were generally reckoned to deserve it long ago and their issues revolved around their Home Union attitude to professionalism. Japan are an interesting case; they have definitely brought something different to the table. They might not be a top tier team, strictly speaking, but I’d reckon that if the IRB offered them a decent amount of money to organise a regional tournament, we’d see something worth seeing. But I dare say Japan would drive a hard bargain in return, and good luck to ‘em if they did. 

 

If the IRB seriously cared about development, they’d do something about the shameful treatment of South Seas players by their Home Unions. 

 

I think that you are a little hard on Georgia and Italy. Both countries' rugby has advanced immensely in recent years in part due to many of their internationals playing in French club rugby. The problem for them is that the first tier countries have also advanced particularly in physique.

 

For what it's worth, my solution for the Six Nations would be to have an autumn competition between the other European rugby playing nations, with the winner taking part in the following Six/Seven Nations.

 

If you really wanted to spice things up, only the top four in the Six Nations would qualify automatically for the following year. The bottom two would have to play the Autumn qualifying tournament with three going into the following year's Seven Nations. I would prefer Seven Nations as it gives three home games and three away games.

 

Same for the World Cup. The second-tier nations should play matches between themselves at the start of the tournament with the group winners then continuing into the second round when the top eight/twelve nations would join in. That would generate far more interest in the competition for the second-tier than a succession of thrashings.

[tigerburnie]

The solution to european rugby is simple, have two leagues of 6 with relegation and promotion, natural selection. I don't see the point of the Autumn internationals now we have a world cup, but the money makes the world go around, even without fans inside the stadiums.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

 

 

Regarding the women’s game, good luck to ‘em but as an alternative to top-tier international coverage? Really? Look beyond the BBC and the Guardian, and the level of coverage demonstrates the general interest in what is, after all, an amateur-level standard of play in a game which amounts to 15-a-side Sevens. 

 

Did you see the England-France women's game on Saturday? It was better to watch than the other free-to-air internationals.

 

In many ways, the whole game is getting more like Sevens and will continue to be like that until we go back to proper scrums with the ball put in straight.

[Joseph_Pestell]

23 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

The solution to european rugby is simple, have two leagues of 6 with relegation and promotion, natural selection. I don't see the point of the Autumn internationals now we have a world cup, but the money makes the world go around, even without fans inside the stadiums.

 

That solution is not simple because of its financial implications. At the risk of sounding like an "old fart", I miss the "amateur" era.

[rockershovel]

.... you appear to have identified the problem, without acknowledging it, which is that while Italy and Georgia have improved, the top tier nations have improved more, and are in fact widening the gap. Italy haven’t won a 6N game in five years, remember. 

 

The problem with the “developing nations” mantra is that it doesn’t provide for the answer being “sorry, but you simply aren’t up to it”. It’s obvious by now, that Italy don’t have a sufficient infrastructure to support top tier Test rugby, and there is no real reason to believe that Georgia do either. Romania were good once, there are plenty of Romanian players in the French league, but their financial structure is destroyed and unlikely to return. 

 

Why would the 6N need “spicing up”? This years’s competition entered its final weekend with two possible winners, plus a mathematical chance of a third (none of which were Italy). A tournament which can produce that, with a game like Wales v  Scotland as a “dead rubber” doesn’t need “spicing up”. 

 

Seven nations? That dog won’t fight; the “suits” didn’t want the “bye week” in the old Five Nations, hence the expansion to six. Seven nations would bring in the same issue. No, a competitive sixth nation would be an ornament to the tournament, but a permanent punching-bag at the bottom of the table, not so much. The same applies to a rotating cast of punching bags, which is what actually happens in the round-ball Premiership. 

 

If we must have six participants, ditch Italy, forget Georgia et al and invite a touring side from the South Seas, pay their players properly and give them three years. That would put the cat among the pigeons. 

 

 

[rockershovel]

5 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

That solution is not simple because of its financial implications. At the risk of sounding like an "old fart", I miss the "amateur" era.

 

Really? By the end of the “amateur era”, players were playing in front of 60,000 crowds on live tv for no payment, supporting a bloated management at Twickenham. England were raking it in, and the actual team were hopeless, embodied by captains like John “at least we turn up” Pullin, or Bill Beaumont establishing a lifetime reputation on the strength of a single Grand Slam. 

 

No, we were well rid of what amateurism had become, by that time. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, rockershovel said:

 

Really? By the end of the “amateur era”, players were playing in front of 60,000 crowds on live tv for no payment, supporting a bloated management at Twickenham. England were raking it in, and the actual team were hopeless, embodied by captains like John “at least we turn up” Pullin, or Bill Beaumont establishing a lifetime reputation on the strength of a single Grand Slam. 

 

No, we were well rid of what amateurism had become, by that time. 

 

From an English perspective, perhaps. But I don't look at it from that viewpoint.

[rockershovel]

19 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

From an English perspective, perhaps. But I don't look at it from that viewpoint.

 

Really? Wales had, basically, one good team in the 70s and rested on their laurels for twenty years. Scotland were stagnating. South Africa were on the point of foundering as they went through political turmoil, Australia and New Zealand weren’t even pretending to be amateurs by then. 

 

No, “those days” were gone long before they finally left the stage. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, rockershovel said:

 

Really? Wales had, basically, one good team in the 70s and rested on their laurels for twenty years. Scotland were stagnating. South Africa were on the point of foundering as they went through political turmoil, Australia and New Zealand weren’t even pretending to be amateurs by then. 

 

No, “those days” were gone long before they finally left the stage. 

 

Remember that I put "amateur". I am perfectly aware of shamateurism as practised not only in Aus/NZ but in France and England. I encountered plenty of it in my playing days.

 

It was far from perfect and I agree with you that professionalism may have helped the international level. But it has not helped club rugby and that is the foundation/roots of the game.

[rockershovel]

50 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Remember that I put "amateur". I am perfectly aware of shamateurism as practised not only in Aus/NZ but in France and England. I encountered plenty of it in my playing days.

 

It was far from perfect and I agree with you that professionalism may have helped the international level. But it has not helped club rugby and that is the foundation/roots of the game.

 

Professionalism has done the game great harm, because of the way it has been mismanaged at the lower levels. I well remember, towards the end of No 2 Son’s junior playing career, a furious and acrimonious AGM revolving around the issue that the 250-odd junior members were effectively paying for a moderately successful First XV featuring a number of semi-professionals, sparked by a revolt amongst the club playing members who felt they were being excluded by this policy, in a club with effectively nil gate revenue and limited local sponsorship. 

 

It doesn’t help that a long-moribund local side has been revived as, in effect, a semi-professional side run on a “hobby basis” by a small group of local businessmen. 

 

I don’t think any of this is an unusual story, from what I hear from a number of sources. 

 

I also seem to recall that Wales had a considerable reputation for practices such as “boot money”..

Edited November 23, 2020 by rockershovel

[88D]

I can assure you that I got no boot money when I was playing. Have a read of Bobby Windsor’s autobiography: he has some marvellous stories of how stingy the WRU were.

[tigerburnie]

7 hours ago, rockershovel said:

.... you appear to have identified the problem, without acknowledging it, which is that while Italy and Georgia have improved, the top tier nations have improved more, and are in fact widening the gap. Italy haven’t won a 6N game in five years, remember. 

 

The problem with the “developing nations” mantra is that it doesn’t provide for the answer being “sorry, but you simply aren’t up to it”. It’s obvious by now, that Italy don’t have a sufficient infrastructure to support top tier Test rugby, and there is no real reason to believe that Georgia do either. Romania were good once, there are plenty of Romanian players in the French league, but their financial structure is destroyed and unlikely to return. 

 

Why would the 6N need “spicing up”? This years’s competition entered its final weekend with two possible winners, plus a mathematical chance of a third (none of which were Italy). A tournament which can produce that, with a game like Wales v  Scotland as a “dead rubber” doesn’t need “spicing up”. 

 

Seven nations? That dog won’t fight; the “suits” didn’t want the “bye week” in the old Five Nations, hence the expansion to six. Seven nations would bring in the same issue. No, a competitive sixth nation would be an ornament to the tournament, but a permanent punching-bag at the bottom of the table, not so much. The same applies to a rotating cast of punching bags, which is what actually happens in the round-ball Premiership. 

 

If we must have six participants, ditch Italy, forget Georgia et al and invite a touring side from the South Seas, pay their players properly and give them three years. That would put the cat among the pigeons. 

 

 

You aren't aware that of a lot of things going on in world rugby, which of the many "South Sea Island" sides would you invite? Why do you think amateur players from the Pacific would fare better than any of the European nations in the second tier? Scotland has no stronger a set up than Italy and the Welsh are losing fans badly and came close to insolvency before covid came along. For a while the French club owners were at war with the FRFU and their performances in the 6 nations were no better than Italy. The Pacific rim competition was introduced to give nations in that large region the opportunity to get more games for their sides, that is where the USA and Japan were able to progress their sides. The money men are the problem in rugby(and other sports no doubt), be they club owners or political leaders of some nations. The 6 nations is a European competition and long may that continue, we don't need it to become a laughing stock like the Eurovision song contest. thanks.

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, tigerburnie said:

You aren't aware that of a lot of things going on in world rugby, which of the many "South Sea Island" sides would you invite? Why do you think amateur players from the Pacific would fare better than any of the European nations in the second tier? Scotland has no stronger a set up than Italy and the Welsh are losing fans badly and came close to insolvency before covid came along. For a while the French club owners were at war with the FRFU and their performances in the 6 nations were no better than Italy. The Pacific rim competition was introduced to give nations in that large region the opportunity to get more games for their sides, that is where the USA and Japan were able to progress their sides. The money men are the problem in rugby(and other sports no doubt), be they club owners or political leaders of some nations. The 6 nations is a European competition and long may that continue, we don't need it to become a laughing stock like the Eurovision song contest. thanks.

 

Who’s talking about inviting amateurs from anywhere? There are plenty of NH, and for that matter SH based South Seas players in the various professional leagues, and quite a few national sides. There is ample precedent for South Seas based Barbarians sides, playing at international level in the NH. I don’t see Italians and Georgians playing at that level, outside their domestic leagues, in any significant numbers. The 6N is played over 6 weekends and I don’t see any reason why an invitation side couldn’t be assembled for the tournament, if the will existed to do it. 

 

I fully agree that in terms of the tournament, a return to the old 5 Nations would be preferable, but that isn’t on offer and won’t happen. The challenge is to make the best of a format dictated by vested interests which don’t have the interests of either the tournament, the players or the supporters in mind. I don’t believe Italy figure in that, on their performance. That, to me, means having a threshold for admission, and qualifying from your World Cup group might be a good starting point... oops, still not Italy or Georgia.... or how about inviting the highest-ranked team not involved in the SH Championship? 

 

Georgia have just played England, in a game in which a front row forward scored a hat-trick of tries. I don’t know what your definition of being made a laughing stock might be, but that comes close in my book. 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by rockershovel