Rugby Union

[Joseph_Pestell]

I do think it unfortunate that the TV producers put a microphone up the nostrils of the players during the anthems. Most of the players really do massacre their anthems and would be better off doing a "John Redwood"*, although better than him of course.

 

*For those who have never seen this hilarious clip (frequently repeated on Have I Got News For You), John Redwood was SoS for Wales at the time and made a foolish attempt to look as though he was singing the Welsh National Anthem. Worse than Theresa May's dancing.

[TheQ]

4 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Those of us who studied British Constitution (not called that when I did GCE, at least not by our exam board) should be completely mystified by recent events.

 

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We don't have a constitution, just centuries of practice and use. with the odd intervention of the courts.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 03/11/2019 at 18:19, The Johnster said:

Nationalism, in it's Welsh language promotion form, is the same sort of cancerous elephant in the room of Welsh politics as sectarianism is in Ulster (and Glasgow or Liverpool).  it is terminally divisive, or perhaps tridisive or even quadradivisive.  There are Welsh speakers who do not consider themselves nationalists, monoglot English speaking Welsh people who do, Welsh speakers who consider themselves more Welsh in some way because they can speak the language (who are to be found in both the aforementioned camps), and monoglot English speakers who oppose the use of Welsh vigorously in the belief that, if the language nazis get their way, the teaching and use of Welsh will become compulsory.  Many people had extremely bad experiences of being taught Welsh in primary schools, and opted out in droves in secondary education.

 

Their are other issues conflated with this mess.  North/South animosity has survived nearly 800 years of English rule and 500 of parity with English subjects of the English monarch largely intact, and the Welsh speaking areas, largely the rural West and North, resent what they perceive as dominance from the English monoglot South East (despite the fact that there numerically are more Welsh speakers in Cardiff than the rest of the nation combined). This remarkable disparity in population density has existed since the industrial revolution.  There is a reservoir of disaffected underclass voters, some of the most deprived people in the UK, in the valleys and both the Nationalists and Far Right have targeted them.  The Far Right have had more success, because of the association of Nationalism with language.

 

For the better off in Cardiff or the Vale of Glamorgan, Welsh language medium schools are favoured for their offspring even if they speak no Welsh at home or are incomers, as such schools have a reputation for better A level performance, and this has led to a resentment from monoglot English speaking people  who are not as well off and whose children are denied such opportunity as a result, a twist on the catchment area issues found everywhere.

 

Then there are the 'Crachath', universally hated and Welsh speaking to a man/woman.  These are a cabal of middle class Welsh speakers that promote themselves within the Welsh media and art worlds, living in a posh ghetto in Pontcanna, a district of Cardiff close to the original S4C and the BBC Llandaff studios.  These are the biggest fish in the small pool that Wales is politically and culturally, and pull the strings; it is reckoned that you can't get a job as a toilet cleaner in S4C unless you are both Welsh speaking and 'in' with this Taffia.  They dominate that world completely, have huge influence on Welsh life in general, represent nobody but themselves, and are accountable to nobody.

 

Anthems, whether national/official or otherwise, become anthems because they represent an identity, perhaps national, or social, or political, or religious.  Their absence in English life and culture, which has plenty of national, social, political, and religious identities to sing about, is IMHO a sad result of firstly the hijacking of such as 'Jerusalam' and 'Land of Hope and Glory' (which to be fair does promote a somewhat empire building philosophy) by the PC brigade, and, worse, by their committed enemies the Far Right.  The Union Flag has also been appropriated by the sort of English Nationalists who are associated with the Far Right, and has thus become a poisoned chalice.  In this environment, 'Swing Low' is a pretty clever choice.

 

So it has become almost impossible to demonstrate any sort of English identity without running foul of these people and appearing to be racist or xenophobic.  But there is nothing wrong with being proud of being English and displaying your identity, it is just that there is no convenient anthem for the English to nail their colours to.  Even the BBC, respected for it's impartiality, uses 'Lillibolero', which is offensive to Irish republicans and promotes the Orange cause.  History is sticky stuff, and difficult to free one's self from.  Lillibolero's opposite number, the Garryowen (both cracking tunes by the way) is deplored by liberals and Native Americans in the US because of it's adoption by that shining light of racial tolerance and acceptance General Custer.

 

I sing 'Mae Hen Wlad' (Land of my Fathers) with pride and emotion, because I am proud of being Welsh despite my English and Irish mongrel DNA, but firmly believe that everybody should be just as proud of their heritage and culture.  We have all got skeletons in the cupboards of our histories, which we can accept, own, and progress from.  But there are, sadly, people to whom an anthem means a declaration of superiority, a 'them and us', which always seems to be misinformed and a denial of the past.  Cultural icons are prone to this as well.  I visited Tintagel some years ago, and was a bit shocked at the virulence of my reaction to it.  A sort of touristy Englishness is promoted here, but the inaccuracy of it brought out both my inner modeller (that's just not right!) and my inner cottage burner.  Arthur, if he ever lived, was an effective, probably Roman trained, Romano-British leader, i.e, a Welshman, and a Saxon's worst nightmare.  He is claimed to have killed 33 of them at the battle of Mt Badon 'himself by his own hand, and with no other'.

 

The association of Scottish nationalism with 'Braveheart' shows how easily this can happen.  A resurgence of it associated with the Mel Gibson fantasy, itself so full of inaccuracy that you'd never have exhibited it publicy if it was a layout and which managed to very effectively pervert historical fact, coincided with the adoption of Flower of Scotland, which references 'Great Edward's Army' being sent 'homewards tae think again' as a rugby anthem.  Braveheart actually refers not to Wallace, but to the Black Douglas, who intended to join the 3rd Crusade in Palestine in the previous century but was unable to because he had to deal with events at home.  He wished that his heart be buried in Jerusalem and, after his death, it was taken to Palestine by a servant.  At the Battle of Hattin, where the Crusaders were finally and decisively beaten by Saladin's army, when he saw that all was lost, he threw the heart in it's casket as far into the advancing Saracens in an attempt to get it as close to Jerusalem as he could, with the cry 'Forward, Brave Heart, as thou wert always wont'.  This sounds like legend but is historical fact testified to by eyewitnesses on both sides.  It is nothing whatsoever to do with William Wallace!

 

The English the English the English I mean the Springboks are best

I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest...

 

So much agree with most of this post from my position of an English/Welsh cross who identifies more as Welsh than English although the DNA says otherwise. I was born in South Wales, but only because my English father was stationed there with the RAF at the time. My Welsh blood is from North Wales so that is another cause of identity crisis.

 

Wherever you go in Europe where schools teach in the indigenous regional language, the academic results are better (much better in most cases). This is doubtless due to various factors, including better parental support. But above all, it enables the children to be more open to learning.

 

That said, I don't envy those (including my English nephew) who have to learn Welsh. A phenomenally difficult langauge gramatically.

[The Johnster]

If you think Welsh is hard, wait 'til you try Polish!  But you're right; apart from the awful school experience, not helped by a teacher who'd clearly only taken the job on because he liked shouting at children, I've tried to learn off my own bat on 3 separate occasions, and it's too much for me.  Perhaps if I lived in a Welsh speaking area...

[rockershovel]

36 minutes ago, TheQ said:

We don't have a constitution, just centuries of practice and use. with the odd intervention of the courts.

 

We don’t have a Constitution, but we DO have a comprehensive body of established constitutional practice and precedent. We also have a Parliament, which appears lately to have rediscovered its long-lost courage, assisted by a sharp reminder that MPs are elected, and can be removed the same way. I find it significant that the Commons have elected a new Speaker whose reputation is primarily for unobtrusive expertise in these arcane matters, and generally running a tight ship in various committees. 

 

 

[62613]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

No, another small European country, Lichtenstein.

 

I seem to recall Luxembourg's being rather long and orchestral.

 

Knew it began with an L

 

[Dave47549]

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Edited October 4, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[rockershovel]

3 minutes ago, Dave47549 said:

Oops...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50300756

 

I must admit that I find it very difficult to take an interest in the shenanigans surrounding club rugby in the Prem. I concluded long ago that the less I knew about the Prem, the happier I’d be...

 

[Dave47549]

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Edited October 4, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[Joseph_Pestell]

33 minutes ago, Dave47549 said:

Oops...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50300756

 

Wow! Makes Bolton Wanderers current situation look very comfortable.

 

Exceptional penalty (both points deduction and financial) is way beyond reasonable. It is based on the fact that it has been going on for a long time. But Saracens, alone, are not responsible for that. The authorities have let the situation drift on and should take their fair share of the blame.

 

Of course, this is nothing new. The RFU must have known about "shamateurism" at our leading clubs before the professional era. Did they do anything about it? No, because it would have impacted on the performance of our international players.

[rockershovel]

12 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Wow! Makes Bolton Wanderers current situation look very comfortable.

 

Exceptional penalty (both points deduction and financial) is way beyond reasonable. It is based on the fact that it has been going on for a long time. But Saracens, alone, are not responsible for that. The authorities have let the situation drift on and should take their fair share of the blame.

 

Of course, this is nothing new. The RFU must have known about "shamateurism" at our leading clubs before the professional era. Did they do anything about it? No, because it would have impacted on the performance of our international players.

 

.......Which leads to a potentially rather uncomfortable discussion, regarding the relationship between the top tier of professional clubs, and the national team. 

 

The RFU dropped the ball, very badly indeed, during the transition to professionalism and allowed a permanent conflict of interest to arise between investors in the top clubs (notably, Sir John Hall at Newcastle) and the national squad, as operated by the RFU as governing body. Hall installed Rob Andrew as manager at Newcastle, and did more than anyone else to prevent the RFU moving to a central contracted national squad. The RFU subsequently  allowed Andrew to spend a long time at the heart of things at Twickenham, until he was forced out in the aftermath of the 2015 RWC debacle.

 

I have long felt that the chronic weaknesses in the England side were derived from the policies of Prem teams, particularly the lack of options in decision making positions, naive tactical leadership and over-playing of players generally. 

 

 

[BoD]

I suspect that, after various appeals, the penalty will about a third/half of the original.  Which is probably what the RFU decided on in the first place but doubling it to take account of appeals or legal challenges, allowing everyone to save a bit of face.

[Kingzance]

For a decade, murmurings about how particularly Saracens but also Leicester flouted the salary cap rules abounded. That the most successful of those two teams has been punished is right but it is strange that the powers at Welford Road seem to have got away with it - or could it be that such a points deduction would result in no Tigers in the Prem next year with their past season's history and their start to this?
Every sport that turns from amateur to professional eventually gets into the same mess - soccer being a prime example.

[tigerburnie]

57 minutes ago, Kingzance said:

For a decade, murmurings about how particularly Saracens but also Leicester flouted the salary cap rules abounded. That the most successful of those two teams has been punished is right but it is strange that the powers at Welford Road seem to have got away with it - or could it be that such a points deduction would result in no Tigers in the Prem next year with their past season's history and their start to this?
Every sport that turns from amateur to professional eventually gets into the same mess - soccer being a prime example.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50300756

You have the wrong club, it was Bath that were investigated for salary breech, not Leicester, Wasps also quickly shed a few players last year too.

Edited November 5, 2019 by tigerburnie

[Kingzance]

1 hour ago, tigerburnie said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50300756

You have the wrong club, it was Bath that were investigated for salary breech, not Leicester, Wasps also quickly shed a few players last year too.

Bath were cleared quite a bit earlier IIRC, Wasps are in the brown smelly stuff financially.

[tigerburnie]

I fear that when an appeal is lodged this will again be swept under the carpet, however the rugby will hopefully be the winner as there seems to be a few teams capable of winning well, Northampton "Sinners" are doing well whilst all the Internationals are away.

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

The RFU dropped the ball, very badly indeed, during the transition to professionalism and allowed a permanent conflict of interest to arise between investors in the top clubs (notably, Sir John Hall at Newcastle) and the national squad, as operated by the RFU as governing body.

 

 

 

None of the major rugby-playing nations has been able to make professionalism work properly. The RFU probably had a big problem at the time in that, like the FA, it was being run by "old farts in blazers" who did not believe in professionalism and would have been glad to see it fail.

 

Whole set-up needs looking at again with someone mediating between the RFU on one side and the clubs on the other. Perhaps the clubs need to consider combining the English competition with the Celtic/Italian competition?

 

Perhaps more important than a salary cap is a restriction on the number of games that any individual player can play in a season or calendar year?

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Of course, this is nothing new. The RFU must have known about "shamateurism" at our leading clubs before the professional era. Did they do anything about it? No, because it would have impacted on the performance of our international players.

 

Just to clarify, I was given first-hand testimony about players, including second team and juniors, getting cash payments at one of our leading clubs. I have no reason to suppose it was different elsewhere/ That was in the mid-1970s.

 

In France, it was done differently with players recruited and retained by getting them jobs/businesses. At our local club, a small village, a former international was set up with a Notaire's practice. His grandson is still running it 60+ years later.

[rockershovel]

I think there is a fundamental problem with professional rugby union, which is that it has a large constituency of followers for whom the game consists of THEIR club, for which they once played/still play/their son plays there/they go for a pint on Sunday mornings, and the national team. 

 

This results in a VERY large gap between the levels of support. The RFU can sell 60,000 at Twickenham for Barbarians (basically a meaningless exhibition game) while Prem clubs struggle to sell more than 10,000 for top tier games with internationals on the pitch. The tv rights are worth an order of magnitude less, too. This all came as a rather rude shock to people like Sir John Hall, who thought they could repeat the returns they had achieved with the reform of soccer in the 80s, but never came remotely near it.

 

Hence the conflict of interest,  which consists of the clubs trying to extract ever larger sums from the international income. The RFU could, and should have taken the bull by the horns long ago, bought the top six clubs, organised a tournament based around the established international calendar, player development and availability and left the rest to sink or swim by their own efforts. However the OFIB who then ran the sport lacked both the management ability and intestinal fortitude to do this, and here we are. 

 

[tigerburnie]

11 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

None of the major rugby-playing nations has been able to make professionalism work properly. The RFU probably had a big problem at the time in that, like the FA, it was being run by "old farts in blazers" who did not believe in professionalism and would have been glad to see it fail.

 

Whole set-up needs looking at again with someone mediating between the RFU on one side and the clubs on the other. Perhaps the clubs need to consider combining the English competition with the Celtic/Italian competition?

 

Perhaps more important than a salary cap is a restriction on the number of games that any individual player can play in a season or calendar year?

We have a European cup competition for Europe, what we really need is a better funded grass roots game and try and build some sort of legacy, that clearly failed miserably in 2003, Carlings "Old farts" are never going to spend money wisely, they will spend a whole heap of money on a statue instead.

[tigerburnie]

3 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

I

 

Hence the conflict of interest,  which consists of the clubs trying to extract ever larger sums from the international income. The RFU could, and should have taken the bull by the horns long ago, bought the top six clubs, organised a tournament based around the established international calendar, player development and availability and left the rest to sink or swim by their own efforts. However the OFIB who then ran the sport lacked both the management ability and intestinal fortitude to do this, and here we are. 

 

Can't think of anything worse, you clearly have never played the game in England, the clubs are and always have been the roots of the game, the RFU are just the tail trying to wag the dog, they almost bankrupted England not so long ago, I wouldn't trust them to sell the burgers.

[EddieB]

On 03/11/2019 at 19:06, Happy Hippo said:

As was that other oh so PC song, 'Zulu Warrior!' (Well maybe not at international level)

 

 

I think the original original was “Swazi Warrior”, which a certain Rolf Harris purloined and changed to “Zulu”.  I am innocent of what followers of Rugby did subsequently.

 

I wonder what happened to Rolf Harris?  Perhaps his didgeri did too much...

[rockershovel]

2 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

We have a European cup competition for Europe, what we really need is a better funded grass roots game and try and build some sort of legacy, that clearly failed miserably in 2003, Carlings "Old farts" are never going to spend money wisely, they will spend a whole heap of money on a statue instead.

 

The grass roots game is irrelevant in international terms, if there is no proper development structure to bring players to the top level. 

 

The OFIB were pretty much gone by 2003, replaced by a new generation embodied by Francis “Robber” Baron, who saw the game purely in terms of financial return. The 2003 management saw “progress” in terms of monetising everything that moved, whilst abandoning all investment and development. Hence the spurning of Jake White, and the succession of coaches from inside the organisation - none of whom have achieved anything, anywhere else at that level, before or since. No established coach would accept professional constraints of that nature. 

 

The 2015 debacle very nearly happened in 2007, when their start against South Africa was so dire that they simply could not continue in that fashion, and qualify. Pity it didn’t, in a lot of ways; it would have saved the multiple false starts of 2008-15.

 

[rockershovel]

7 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

Can't think of anything worse, you clearly have never played the game in England, the clubs are and always have been the roots of the game, the RFU are just the tail trying to wag the dog, they almost bankrupted England not so long ago, I wouldn't trust them to sell the burgers.

 

Define “clubs”.

 

I started playing in England, at school, in 1966 and finally retired from club rugby in the mid-80s. No 2 Son played juniors from about 2002 and retired at 18, having played junior county rugby and attended Regional try-outs. One of his contemporaries was a junior at Northampton for a while. The clubs are, indeed, the roots of the game but the plain fact is that the great majority contribute little or nothing to international level. 

 

The whole professionalisation issue arose because of the increasing sums involved at international level, where players like Dean Richards and Wade Dooley were giving up leave entitlement to play in front of paying crowds of 50,000-plus with tv rights on top of that. It clearly couldn’t continue, and the SH sides (who had much closer involvement with RL and far less commitment to amateurism) didn’t intend that it should. 

 

The World Cup was, in some ways, the game changing event. 

 

It was always notorious that if you didn't play for the “magic circle” of Wasps, Harlequins, Bath, Saracens, Leicester and Northampton, you had no chance of a cap. It isn’t much different now. Rugby could pay its players better, train them better and rest them better - but that would mean eliminating the speculative investors who seek a profit from clubs and (just as in football) can’t achieve it. 

[tigerburnie]

I would take issue with the last paragraph, before the game went pro, players from non fashionable clubs played for England, Dooley being one at Preston Grasshoppers, Bill Beaumont played for Fylde, there were many others. Since the game went pro, no-one made any money out of running a rugby union club, which was why Hall left Gosforth(another less fashionable club) without any history, fans or money, just a new name Newcastle, to their credit they have survived whilst many(Orrell being another northern side) to fall away.