Rugby Union

[Ian Hargrave]

It was a whlle ago that a forum member....now sadly exiled......once commented that this sporting chauvinism was due to the Scots,the Irish but more especially the Welsh suffering  “conquered nation “status......

 

It’s an attitude of mind that most of us Celts are born with,sad to say.Faults of course all round.A case of thin skins versus unintentionally patronising attitudes usually manifesting itself in attempts to mimic accents.Still,things are indeed improved since the days when my mother...a trainee Queen Alexandra’s nurse in London in the 1930’s...was introduced by a friend at a party as “This is Gwennie,she’s Welsh....but she’s not Welsh really......” This of a girl brought up a miner’s daughter in Treorchy “

[rockershovel]

Oh well, so much for THAT....

 

So, whither Eddie Jones and the RFU? I’m not much impressed by Conor O’Shea’s appointment, a long-standing associate member of the Twickenham “vipers nest” of conflicting interests. Time will tell. 

 

That must surely be Dan Cole’s last tournament, England can’t afford his penalty count in the ruck and he has never been a World-class scrummager. Mako Vunipola wasn’t great, either. Jones seems to have worked his magic on the fractious Kyle Sinckler, and with Genge in the wings it must be time for a change in the front row. 

 

Still, press on. Wales will be rebuilding under a new coach, Ireland seem to be somewhat off the pace, Scotland are as ever... could be the right time for a serious 6N campaign..

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, scottystitch said:

 

I think rather than bemoaning the issue, England should seriously sit down and consider WHY that tendency exists. One would strongly suggest it is not simply out of petty sporting spite.........

Having an English father and a Scottish mother I've always wondered that myself.

[Joseph_Pestell]

21 hours ago, NorthBrit said:

 

The Japanese whisky is rubbish!

 

Just like Scotch (and Spanish and French), some Japanese whisky is awful.

 

But some is simply superb.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I had the impression today that England had not watched Sunday's game (Wales vs S. Africa).

 

Even more than Wales, they played to SA strengths.

[Happy Hippo]

I blame the commentators:

 

Less that two minutes after the commentator said 'SA have never scored a try in a RWC final,' Mapimpi touches down just to the left of the posts.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Happy Hippo

[caradoc]

10 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

An interesting but disappointing set of vox pop interviews on the goggle box yesterday, in Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast. When asked who they would be supporting in the final, the majority of the Welsh and Scots said South Africa because their team hadn't go through, while the Northern Irish unanimously support the English. 

 

Only a small sample, but says a lot about the strength of the Union.

 

As a callow English youth I made the mistake in the early 80s of catching the Glasgow-Inverness overnight train the same evening Scotland had played at Hampden. I was surprised that the majority of songs from the hordes of fans aboard were not about their own team, but celebrated England's lack of success the same night ! I huddled quietly in my seat.......

 

After moving to Scotland in 1984, and having lived here since, I now have a better understanding. IMHO the majority of Scots have nothing against the English, or their sports teams, but get fed up of the arrogance shown, mainly by the media, who often treat England interchangeably with the whole of the UK. It is worst when football is involved, but other sports are included; In fact this morning my (Scots) wife, who is obviously not particularly anti-English, remarked on the overkill coverage on BBC Breakfast of the Rugby World Cup Final. I don't suppose irritations such as hijacking the UK National Anthem for England help either (surely Jerusalem should be the English National Anthem ?!)

 

Anyway, back on topic, South Africa were the better team today and are World Champions on merit. Well done to them.

 

[Damo666]

What was all this silliness with the English team taking off their medals, were their medals not good enough? I thought it was very disrespectful to the winning team and to the hosts.

 

I bet you if you asked the English team 8 weeks ago “would you like to get to the Semi-Finals”, they would have said, YES, especially as they didn’t even qualify in the last World cup.

If you asked them “would you like to be in the Finals”, they would have sold their gran and absolutely said YES. Any team would have.

If you asked the Irish, Welsh, Scottish, NZ, AUS, Russian, Fijian, etc teams, “would you like to have a go in the Finals”, they would all have been delighted for the opportunity.

 

But to take your medals off as if they weren’t good enough was an appalling lack of respect.

 

Yes, I understand that it’s disappointing to lose a match, but it’s not your RIGHT to win, no matter how much your coach may try and inspire you to greatness.

You’ve got to be the best to win, and with zero English trys, against RSAs 2 trys, a 12-32 result, the better team definitely won.

 

Well done RSA for winning

Well done England for getting as far as the final, I wish my own team could have got to the final.

 

But very disappointed England with your lack of sportsmanship.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Damo666

[rockershovel]

45 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

As a callow English youth I made the mistake in the early 80s of catching the Glasgow-Inverness overnight train the same evening Scotland had played at Hampden. I was surprised that the majority of songs from the hordes of fans aboard were not about their own team, but celebrated England's lack of success the same night ! I huddled quietly in my seat.......

 

After moving to Scotland in 1984, and having lived here since, I now have a better understanding. IMHO the majority of Scots have nothing against the English, or their sports teams, but get fed up of the arrogance shown, mainly by the media, who often treat England interchangeably with the whole of the UK. It is worst when football is involved, but other sports are included; In fact this morning my (Scots) wife, who is obviously not particularly anti-English, remarked on the overkill coverage on BBC Breakfast of the Rugby World Cup Final. I don't suppose irritations such as hijacking the UK National Anthem for England help either (surely Jerusalem should be the English National Anthem ?!)

 

Anyway, back on topic, South Africa were the better team today and are World Champions on merit. Well done to them.

 

 

I don't mind admitting that when I first came into contact with the Scots in their native environment, in Glasgow in the early 80s, I had a high old time. The trick was to head for the wine bars of the relatively upmarket Shawlands and stay reasonably sober past 9pm, at which point you would learn something which the local males didn't appear to understand...

 

Talk of "hijacking the national anthem" is highly inaccurate. I have no recollection of hearing "Flowers of Scotland" before the turn of the century, and a few minutes on google informs that it was first associated with the Scotland rugby team in the mid-1970s and adopted as an anthem for football and rugby in the later 1990s. Prior to that, the only anthem at 6N games was God Save The Queen, plus Marseillaise for the French. The England team have never used any other anthem. 

 

Flowers of Scotland has no official status as a "national anthem". 

 

The Americans sometimes appear to think that the British anthem is "Land of Hope and Glory", which was used at the Atlanta Olympics. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

Regarding "overkill on the BBC coverage", England DOES comprise approximately 85% of the population of the UK and (whisper it softly) the Scots were knocked out in the Pool Stage, so didn't really figure in subsequent coverage. 

[caradoc]

56 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

I don't mind admitting that when I first came into contact with the Scots in their native environment, in Glasgow in the early 80s, I had a high old time. The trick was to head for the wine bars of the relatively upmarket Shawlands and stay reasonably sober past 9pm, at which point you would learn something which the local males didn't appear to understand...

 

Talk of "hijacking the national anthem" is highly inaccurate. I have no recollection of hearing "Flowers of Scotland" before the turn of the century, and a few minutes on google informs that it was first associated with the Scotland rugby team in the mid-1970s and adopted as an anthem for football and rugby in the later 1990s. Prior to that, the only anthem at 6N games was God Save The Queen, plus Marseillaise for the French. The England team have never used any other anthem. 

 

Flowers of Scotland has no official status as a "national anthem". 

 

The Americans sometimes appear to think that the British anthem is "Land of Hope and Glory", which was used at the Atlanta Olympics. 

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, but would you accept that from a non-English viewpoint use of the National Anthem for the England team, in whatever sport, can be, (and is) taken as an arrogant presumption that England and the UK are effectively the same thing ?

 

42 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

Regarding "overkill on the BBC coverage", England DOES comprise approximately 85% of the population of the UK and (whisper it softly) the Scots were knocked out in the Pool Stage, so didn't really figure in subsequent coverage. 

 

True, but I wonder what proportion of that 85% of UK population are, or rather (now) were, sufficiently interested in the Final to justify the amount of BBC coverage this morning (especially as the BBC wasn't even showing the match !)

 

[rockershovel]

"Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" appears to be a media invention dating from around 1990. I don't recall it being particularly notable before that, just another song among many that went with post-match beer. 

 

"Jerusalem" is a great song and I think, very English - but technically, it's HARD. I struggle with it, and I learnt it at school when I was in the choir. It also has political implications, being sung by both the WI and the Labour Party - hence the expression "The New Jerusalem" sometimes applied to the far-reaching social reforms of the past-1945 period. 

 

"I Vow To Thee, My Country" has been hijacked as "World In Union". 

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

"Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" appears to be a media invention dating from around 1990. I don't recall it being particularly notable before that, just another song among many that went with post-match beer. 

 

 

No, I remember England-supporting colleagues singing "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" in the late 70s.

[rockershovel]

Perhaps the BBC were trying to distract attention from their lack of coverage! 

 

Regarding the use of God Save The Queen for international sports generally, in MOST categories (particularly athletics) Britain appears as a single entity, being the sovereign nation used as a definition. 

 

[rockershovel]

3 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

No, I remember England-supporting colleagues singing "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" in the late 70s.

 

Oh, it's been around for a long time

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-31147766

[TheSignalEngineer]

3 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

No, I remember England-supporting colleagues singing "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" in the late 70s.

I can remember getting into trouble for singing a rather dubious version at school rugby matches in the 1960s.

[Happy Hippo]

On 01/11/2019 at 19:42, tigerburnie said:

Some of their whisky has won many respected awards, I have not however tried any yet, I tried an English one which was adequate a Welsh one that was awful, an Irish one that was ok. So I might suggest leave whisky making to the Scots, playing rugby to the English, the Irish to making stout and the welsh...………………………………………………………………..I'll think of something in a minute...…………………………...

  I had a good think and all I could come up with was the Welsh are good at managing to score a try against South Africa.

[rockershovel]

"Jerusalem" seems to be the front runner 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_national_anthem_for_England

 

I'm also reminded that the tune of "God Save The Queen" also appears in the USA as "My Country, 'Tis Of Thee" so isn't specifically British, or English for that matter 

Edited November 2, 2019 by rockershovel

[Bon Accord]

2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

 

Talk of "hijacking the national anthem" is highly inaccurate. I have no recollection of hearing "Flowers of Scotland" before the turn of the century, and a few minutes on google informs that it was first associated with the Scotland rugby team in the mid-1970s and adopted as an anthem for football and rugby in the later 1990s. Prior to that, the only anthem at 6N games was God Save The Queen, plus Marseillaise for the French. The England team have never used any other anthem. 

 

Flowers of Scotland has no official status as a "national anthem".

 

Flower of Scotland was in use in the 1980s as the anthem sung at Scottish rugby and football matches. It didn't appear much earlier than the 70s simply because it was only written a decade before by the late, great Roy Williamson. I well remember the crowd singing FOS at the Grand Slam decider at Murrayfield in 1990 - I was there.

Prior to Flower of Scotland appearing on scene Scotland the Brave was used as the Scottish anthem at sporting events, although it doesn't have the same passion so it was thankfully ditched - it also fits into the mould that many of us would refer to as "shortbread tin Scotland", right up there with Brigadoon, Stuart tartan and other such nonsense.

Land of My Fathers has no "official" status either, yet I doubt anyone would say it isn't the Welsh national anthem. Same with Ireland, who do of course sing two songs - the Soldiers Song and Ireland's Call (the latter "unofficial").

God Save the Queen is an awful dirge with no spirit or soul to it and it's high time it was banished from sport.

[Torper]

30 minutes ago, Bon Accord said:

God Save the Queen is an awful dirge with no spirit or soul to it and it's high time it was banished from sport.

 

Quite - I always feel a bit sorry for the English having to put up with that dirge and have never understood why they don't do something about it.  There are some great songs they could use.  How about this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpxx-jSS3JQ

 

DT

[tigerburnie]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=billy+connolly+national+anthems&view=detail&mid=62B950949A447DA75D6E62B950949A447DA75D6E&FORM=VIRE

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I had the impression today that England had not watched Sunday's game (Wales vs S. Africa).

 

Even more than Wales, they played to SA strengths.

I don't think England had any choice in the matter. The SA forwards got their (metaphorical) foot on England's throat from the start and never took it off. Once they had ground England down, after an hour, SA were able to change gear and outmanoeuvre the English backs to score the tries. A comprehensive demonstration of how stopping the other team getting the ball probably means you will win.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Bon Accord said:

 

Flower of Scotland was in use in the 1980s as the anthem sung at Scottish rugby and football matches. It didn't appear much earlier than the 70s simply because it was only written a decade before by the late, great Roy Williamson. I well remember the crowd singing FOS at the Grand Slam decider at Murrayfield in 1990 - I was there.

Prior to Flower of Scotland appearing on scene Scotland the Brave was used as the Scottish anthem at sporting events, although it doesn't have the same passion so it was thankfully ditched - it also fits into the mould that many of us would refer to as "shortbread tin Scotland", right up there with Brigadoon, Stuart tartan and other such nonsense.

Land of My Fathers has no "official" status either, yet I doubt anyone would say it isn't the Welsh national anthem. Same with Ireland, who do of course sing two songs - the Soldiers Song and Ireland's Call (the latter "unofficial").

God Save the Queen is an awful dirge with no spirit or soul to it and it's high time it was banished from sport.

AFAIK Wales has never had an officially recognised National Anthem (we have an odd status as we are not quite a nation but a Principality under the English Monarch, since 1282 when the last native Welsh 'Prince', Llewellyn ap Gruffydd, was killed in an ambush near Buitlh Wells).  'Land of my Fathers', sung in Welsh, is the de facto National Anthem, though, and is used as such at official (by which I mean government and Royal ceremonial) events.

 

I absolutely agree that 'God Save The Queen' is an awful dirge, and it's use as the English National Anthem is incorrect, as it is the Anthem of the United Kingdom.  England doesn't have a National Anthem as one had not been in use prior to Henry VII's Act of Union with Wales or the first Act of Union with Scotland at the accession of James 1st (6th of Scotland).  God save the Queen is somewhat anti-Scottish (rebellious Scots to crush), being written at the time of the 1745 Jacobite rebellion, but of course Flower of Scotland is not exactly supportive of the English.

 

The best one IMHO is beyond doubt the French.  A stirring tune, properly gory lyrics (march, march, that their impure blood shall coagulate in our gutters), something you can get your teeth into.  

[rockershovel]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I don't think England had any choice in the matter. The SA forwards got their (metaphorical) foot on England's throat from the start and never took it off. Once they had ground England down, after an hour, SA were able to change gear and outmanoeuvre the English backs to score the tries. A comprehensive demonstration of how stopping the other team getting the ball probably means you will win.

 

Exactly. England aren’t exactly known for tactical versatility. They have played ten-man, bang-it-up-the-middle rugby for as long as I can remember. When the pack is over-matched, as it was in this game, they don’t really have an answer and at that point, the chronic weaknesses in on-field tactical leadership and the execution of basics (which have been a hallmark of the professional era) tends to appear. 

 

 

Eddie Jones did the best he could, with a team which was in complete disarray when he took it over and lacked any obvious candidate as Captain. He has tamed a number of chronic disciplinary issues (notably Hartley and Farrell and more recently, Sinckler), made effective use of the available halfbacks and installed effective captains, albeit at the cost of tactical leadership on-field. He took them to two 6N wins, including a Grand Slam, plus a highly successful tour against Australia. He produced a one-point loss (by a controversial disallowed try) against New Zealand at Twickenham and demolished New Zealand in Japan.

 

He has now led them to a RWC Final and to be quite frank, if they didn’t prove themselves the best team in the world on the day, I’d say that that was on them, not on him. He met his “performance break clause” - which was to reach the semi-finals) and it will probably cost the RFU a lot of money to replace him. Conor O’Shea certainly won’t do it, although I strongly suspect that he is being positioned for the first time Smiling Eddie puts a foot badly wrong, or just walks away. 

 

 

SA knew that the referee on the day would award a constant string of penalties, plus indefinitely-prolonged “advantage” periods, and stop the game ever taking shape, and played to that. It suited their pack, which was technically stronger than England’s (particularly Dan Cole). Sinckler’s fortuitous injury prevented England playing an obvious reliance on himself and Marler in the front row, and that was the end of THAT. Cole has been conceding critical penalties in the loose and the set, for as long as he has worn a white shirt (Prem refs don’t tend to worry about it to the same extent). 

 

Where next? Hard questions, I think. Cole, Marler, the Vunipola brothers and several others won’t be there in 2023. The half-back issue hasn’t been resolved and there is an obvious lack of both tactical leadership on field, and overall pack leadership (although Itoje could be another Dallaglio, on recent showings). 

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

AFAIK Wales has never had an officially recognised National Anthem (we have an odd status as we are not quite a nation but a Principality under the English Monarch, since 1282 when the last native Welsh 'Prince', Llewellyn ap Gruffydd, was killed in an ambush near Buitlh Wells).  'Land of my Fathers', sung in Welsh, is the de facto National Anthem, though, and is used as such at official (by which I mean government and Royal ceremonial) events.

 

I absolutely agree that 'God Save The Queen' is an awful dirge, and it's use as the English National Anthem is incorrect, as it is the Anthem of the United Kingdom.  England doesn't have a National Anthem as one had not been in use prior to Henry VII's Act of Union with Wales or the first Act of Union with Scotland at the accession of James 1st (6th of Scotland).  God save the Queen is somewhat anti-Scottish (rebellious Scots to crush), being written at the time of the 1745 Jacobite rebellion, but of course Flower of Scotland is not exactly supportive of the English.

 

The best one IMHO is beyond doubt the French.  A stirring tune, properly gory lyrics (march, march, that their impure blood shall coagulate in our gutters), something you can get your teeth into.  

 

There is an obvious problem with the English team NOT singing God Save The Queen at internationals, because then no one would do it. There is also the problem that the general practice of singing has been assiduously bred out of the English, particularly due to educational policies. I learnt Jerusalem and Land of Hope and Glory at school, but my children didn’t and none of them could carry a tune in a sack.