PAT Testing - Any hints.....

[Penlan]

Just received final instructions for an exhibition in a couple of weeks time and it states all equipement has to have been PAT tested...

 

OK, but there's not that many electricians about in the next week readily available at short notice, let alone that are willing to do PAT testing and issue certificates and/or stick the labels on everything for something they have not installed/wired-up etc., etc., - and that I'm at home when they can come (on time ) - and I've a couple of MoT's on two of my classic cars - and hospital appointments ..........

 

So, what's your view on this, please. I'm assuming PAT test's have to be done annually, I'm not a club, so can't spread the cost... why couldn't this have been in the initial invitation notes, not the final instructions?

 

Penlan - Mr Grumpy tonight.

[bertiedog]

Just received final instructions for an exhibition in a couple of weeks time and it states all equipement has to have been PAT tested...

 

OK, but there's not that many electricians about in the next week readily available at short notice, let alone that are willing to do PAT testing and issue certificates and/or stick the labels on everything for something they have not installed/wired-up etc., etc., - and that I'm at home when they can come (on time ) - and I've a couple of MoT's on two of my classic cars - and hospital appointments ..........

 

So, what's your view on this, please. I'm assuming PAT test's have to be done annually, I'm not a club, so can't spread the cost... why couldn't this have been in the initial invitation notes, not the final instructions?

 

Penlan - Mr Grumpy tonight.

 

As long as strictly conventional electrical gear is being used, with correct BS plugs and cables, then testing is not normally required, the exhibition may organise a qualified official inspection, but that's all. However if they have asked for a test certificate, it would have to have been set up earlier than this. I should urgently contact the organiser for details.

[newbryford]

 

 

So, what's your view on this, please. I'm assuming PAT test's have to be done annually, I'm not a club, so can't spread the cost... why couldn't this have been in the initial invitation notes, not the final instructions?

 

 

 

Most clubs will offer some form of PAT test at the show, but may charge for the service. I think it's a bit late in the day if it's in the final instructions, but there's probably little you can do about it apart from comply.

 

Some shows insist on PAT tests - usually enforced upon them by the venue rules and regulations. PAT testing doesn't have to be annual, it depends upon the environment in which it is used. I once tested some equipment in a heavy industrial workshop and gave it a 3 month retest cycle - most of it didn't last that long due to the misuse by the monkeys on the shop floor. Other stuff, such as PC's etc can easily be given a 2 year re-test.

 

Bear in mind though, that a PAT test is like an MOT - it's pass/fail on the day and not the day after.

 

With regard to venue rules - some say use a RCD, others not. Some insist on RCD testing, others don't. Some do a visual inspection of your mains installation, some don't. Unfortunately, there is no consistent standard.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[bertiedog]

There is no standing legal requirement as to the period of the testing, it is not set in stone in the regulations. It applies in other ways in factories, but exhibitions by there natural are intermittent use of the equipment, and low use, requiring the tests to monitor the state of cables, earth leakage and general insulation, and plain common sense on installations that are non standard.

 

 

 

There is no regulation that states your standard electrical equipment has to be PAT tested before use, however a contract may specify this to conform with insurance.

 

An exhibition manager should arrange for a fully qualified electrician to inspect on site, that is the requirement, and because the exhibition is temporary it is done just before the show.

 

All commercial controllers are inherently safe, they are designed that way, the inspection though is for condition, visual, and electrical test, with extension cables megger tested, and inspected for cracks, breaks and scuff wear. Lighting must be checked, earthing checked, and only home made electrical mains equipment tested more stringently

 

What goes on beyond the isolation transformers is up to the exhibitor, but may be inspected to ensure it really is isolated from the mains.

 

Although not strictly part of PAT the inspection should cover the shields used for cables, the height of overhead cables, and safety of all supports for cables crossing footways.

 

I should say I have done such inspection work, I am fully qualified, but PAT has been extended, not so much by the regulations, but by the insurers requirements, often taken as draconian by the organisers, although it is better to be safe than sorry.

[RedgateModels]

Ramrig of this parish handles all this sort of thing for the Micklover Club ( and hence the Derby Show), I'd PM him for advice, shame you are so far away as I'm sure he would be able to help if you were close to Derby

 

P.S. although the frequencies of testing are not set in law, they are defined in the approved code of practice, so are practically legally binding (quasi law)

 

Most shows will have someone who can test on the day, I'd contact the organiser. Just don't turn up with an open transformer in a wooden box, tends to get the qualified person's back up

[eldavo]

Probably find that if you wing an email to the organiser asking if you should factor this PAT test into your expenses they will promptly respond telling you they have a qualified tester on site.

 

Cheers

Dave

[noiseboy72]

You can easily carry out a visual inspection.

 

Check all the screws inside and out of all plugs are tight, fuses are the correct value, If the case is removable, all the screws are tight and you cannot access live mains without tools. There are no nicks or joins in the mains or LV cables and there is correct strain relief as well.

 

The electrical bit of the PAT is an insulation test and an earth continuity test. The earth bit is the important one for non double insulated equipment, and can be carried out with a multimeter on the low OHM scale. Check that you have less than 0.5 OHMS between the earth pin and the metal case or Earth screw (Normally a silver screw with an earth symbol).

 

You can always issue your own certificate, but if the kit injures someone, you would be liable.

 

Common sense stuff really. Turn up with well maintained kit and no one will worry, turn up with transformers hanging out of their case and expect to be asked to leave...

[Kenton]

So, what's your view on this, please.

Annoying and irritating at the very least and a waste of money. It never used to be required and is just another one of those unnecessary rules introduce IMO to make "jobs-for-the-boys".

 

My view is that if the exhibition management insist on it then they should provide it and absorb the cost. I accept that probably the club is not imposing it and that it is being imposed by the venue, but the club has decided on the venue, so cover the cost from the door receipts.

 

As for leaving it to the last few days before the show, that is either bad management or total lack of planning - do you really want to exhibit there - do they really want you?

[John C]

I normally do it for the Abingdon club exhibitions, because it is a requirment of the venue, but nobody from the venue has ever ever asked to see a cxertificte or do a visual inspection. we did have to send a PAT Certificate prior to doing a display at the town hall though last month. Its all down to the ELF and SAAFFTY Brigade.

[nick_bastable]

It should be remembered that testing of delicate devices ( ie most things with a CPU eg DCC controllers etc) visual; inspection only is recommended

 

 

see this link

 

Visual is common sense although I did do and pass the City & Guilds 2377 course which is a one day course

 

2mm Golden Jubilee Entry

[bertiedog]

PAT testing would not cover DCC etc., as it is beyond the isolation transformer, it would be checked to see if home made or a commercial unit and the leads to the transformer are correct.

 

 

It could cover a computer, radio etc., with integral transformers, but would be a fairly cursory examination of condition at an exhibition, the lead, plug and correct fuse.

 

It does not cover battery equipment, phones, till card readers or other battery devices not on the mains.

 

The period of re-test has again been mentioned and it open ended, it is up to the tester, but he would not step far from the established limits.

 

Really no trouble at all should arise as long as all equipment is commercial, well kept, and decent extension cables are used, with properly fused plugs. There is no RCD rule, they are sometimes advised, and an organiser can insist as part of the contract.

 

Too much of this extra work is laid at the doors of regulators, when it is the site organisers and insurers who are the problem, they over interpret the "rules" set by the legislators, who are after all only concerned to promote safety.

 

Left to their own devices, people are not safe, there are electrical idiots out there, and worse those who believe they know what they are doing and do not.

 

And by the way, it is far more likely that you will trip over, than be electrocuted at a show, get things in proportion.

[Dagworth]

If electricians can't help at short notice try your local sound and lighting hire company (the kind of places that provide PA and lighting for the events industry), most of these places also do PAT testing and the industry is much more geared to short notice work.

 

Andi

[Penlan]

Many thanks one and all, plenty of sound advice.

 

I think what riled me was the fact no 'reasonable'prior notice of the requirement and that the layout is already packed up and ready to go, to have to unpack it, set up the overhead lighting pelmets etc., was not a chore I wanted to be at in the short term.

 

My local Electrician, who will do PAT tests, has just finished some work in the village and gone off up to Newquay for a decent paying contract over the next few weeks.

 

Inspections under way now for all the wiring etc. I have had a reply from the organiser, some agreement there on proceedures.

 

Re. the plumbing, yup, all's water tight now (how can there be so many variations in dia. for a 1.5" pipe?) just got to paint the water stains out of the ceilings, rehang wall paper etc. New tiling in en-suites as requested by SWMBO, new flooring - water damage to old. Some electrics have also had to be varied.............. Then I have two MOT's this week on my classic cars (1934 A7's), so life goes on in the tail end of England Cornwall.

[Tim Lewis]

I have had a reply from the organiser, some agreement there on proceedures.

 

 

What was the reply? I would have thought that an exhibition may sensibly have a PAT-tester on site so that any 'rogue' items can be checked, but obviously there's a cost involved whichever way it's done.

[Nile_Griffith]

Have to say that as a "someone" who turns a coin from within the events industry. I have to smile at the number of times that the PAT question crops up. There has been plenty of good advice given. What I would add is that the PAT test is not some kind of black art and that it is quite OK for a competent individual to carry out the test with an appropriately certified piece of test equipment. In other words if someone stands in front of you sucking through his teeth and shaking his head in a forlorn fashion, he's possibly about to lift your leg.

 

Dagworth has offered a good direction for those who maybe able to help (just don't come asking me, as my lads moan something buggery come PAT test time........ we got a lot off stuff with a plug on the end).

 

Remember that as exhibitors it is generally yourself or your own people who are operating. So as well as good visual checks that your gear is in good order etc, make sure that you can assure the venue if needed, that your exhibition team are aware of what order it should be in and that they know what isn't good order.

 

As mentioned above. The current state of play is very much insurer led. Venues need insurance and insurers need a get out clause. Don't be the get out clause!!!!!

 

What I have noticed with a lot of exhibitors when I do the "Joe Public" thing at model rail exhibitions. Is just how little attention is paid to trailing cables. Just because those trailing cables are not on the public side, that won't save you should sh1t come to shove!

 

Invest in a couple of rolls of good quality gaffa tape. It's a darn sight cheaper than a law suit. and damned well make sure they are taped down....... and I don't mean a couple of piece meal bits of tape tacking it down... Tape the length of the cable and make sure it can be seen to be done....... Yes you Smithers at the back there.

 

I have to be honest in saying that of the half dozen or so exhibitions I get time to visit each year. I could if wearing my professional hat. Find perfectly acceptable reasons to close the doors on two thirds of them. I have had my run ins with Mr Elf and his sidekick Mr Safety on more than one occasion (and one day I'll beat the ###### so I will). I think our little enterprises get off quite lightly.

[Dagworth]

What I have noticed with a lot of exhibitors when I do the "Joe Public" thing at model rail exhibitions. Is just how little attention is paid to trailing cables. Just because those trailing cables are not on the public side, that won't save you should sh1t come to shove!

 

Invest in a couple of rolls of good quality gaffa tape. It's a darn sight cheaper than a law suit. and damned well make sure they are taped down....... and I don't mean a couple of piece meal bits of tape tacking it down... Tape the length of the cable and make sure it can be seen to be done....... Yes you Smithers at the back there.

 

Note that under the 17th edition regs gaffa taping of cables is no longer regarded as sufficient protection in areas open to the general public, walk mats or similar must be used. What you do behind your layout is up to you though.

 

andi

[Mike Bellamy]

see this link

 

Sorry that I'm late picking up this one but I would advise caution with the link quoted above as this site still shows the 16th edition of the IEE regulations from 1992 and so some of the advice is not up to date.

 

The 17th edition was published in 2008 and I am told that there have been some changes to the requirements for temporary displays etc which cover exhibitions.

 

Mike

[big jim]

If electricians can't help at short notice try your local sound and lighting hire company (the kind of places that provide PA and lighting for the events industry), most of these places also do PAT testing and the industry is much more geared to short notice work.

 

Andi

 

yeah, what he said....

 

i use my local "disco shop" for pat testing, he only charges £3 an item too.

 

try pm'ing 21Alizard on here as he's a part time dj and lives in cornwall, he may be able to advise you on someone in your area who can help you out, granted he's the other end of cornwall though!

[Pacific231G]

 

 

Left to their own devices, people are not safe, there are electrical idiots out there, and worse those who believe they know what they are doing and do not.

 

And by the way, it is far more likely that you will trip over, than be electrocuted at a show, get things in proportion.

 

When setting up (PAT tested) filming lights the trip hazards have always exercised me more than the electrical ones and a roll of gaffa tape is always part of the kit but a seemingly harmless trip over a cable can easily create an electrical hazard. I have also seen some real death trap electrics on layouts. Unprotected mains wiring mixed with low voltage wiring under the baseboards seems a favourite.

 

I'm also conscious of the number of musicians who've been electrocuted on stage by dodgy electrics. That's almost invariably down to mains powered equipment that's moved around a lot and set up in different venues with any faults fixed on location- that sounds rather familiar. Also, with far more integral layout lighting these days there's often a lot more 240V around the average exhibition layout than there ever used to be.

 

What is the situation with RCDs- does powering a layout via a PAT tested RCD cover the requirements?

 

As an aside, when I moved into my house I found that the previous owner had run a loose cable nailed to the fence from one of the 13A boxes in the kitchen to the garage and along the exterior part of the cable there were several places where bare conductor was showing.

 

I

[noiseboy72]

You can cascade all types of RCD RCCBs etc. so long as they are designed to trip in order from smallest to largest. Most main breakers will be slow trip or set at a higher trip current. 32A, 16A & 13A outlets will be protected by a 30mA trip, so a personal RCD of the same value should not be used, and will provide no more protection.

 

PAT is much more than just protection from electrocution from earth faults. Loose cables present a heat & fire risk while poor insulation could cause potentially lethal voltages on low voltage equipment.

 

And yes, like Mr Dagworth et al, I also work in the events industry and am horrified by some exhibitions ! That being said, Nottingham Model show is excellent, with good mains distribution, plenty of trip protection, stewards and exits.

 

The problems are not just contained to model shows though. We are exhibiting this week and have already seen more dodgy practices hidden behind stands and under tables than you can imagine. We have had a few friendly words in ears...

[stadman]

When I enquired with H&S regarding being forced to have our club equipment PAT tested in it's old premises I was told following.

Not necessary to have PAT test although we had a duty to members and visitors of H&S, I would agree with that, whatever your opinions on H&S.

Nuisance about tape though.

[sapper_k]

i have a whole draw full of PAT test pass stickers in my draw if you would like some " hint hint "

 

kye

[Dagworth]

i have a whole draw full of PAT test pass stickers in my draw if you would like some " hint hint "

 

kye

Not a good idea... what happens if you put a pass sticker on something that is not safe and someone gets hurt?

 

Andi

[Mod2]

i have a whole draw full of PAT test pass stickers in my draw if you would like some " hint hint "

 

 

As per Andi's post above. Irresponsible comment like this has no place on this forum Kye - and would you like your employer to read this?

 

Thanks.

[sapper_k]

sorry... i withdraw my last comment. wasnt thinking straight. didnt mean to annoy anyone

 

kye