Politicking by "pub landlord"?

[Dunsignalling]

I've read the "magazine" in question last Thursday and not all the newspaper articles reprinted support the Wetherspoon's "company line" uncritically.

 

In any event, if rich people want to influence political views, I'd far rather it was out in the open, like this. Mr. Martin's own "angle" is well known, and we can judge how he presents the arguments accordingly.  I'd be much more bothered by him, or anyone else, attempting to influence opinion without folk noticing or knowing that material they are being presented with is skewed. That's what gives rise to a belief in "shadowy elites" (real or imagined).

 

My own views on Brexit have changed since the referendum took place and I will vote differently should another one be engineered. Probably not the way those behind the pressure for one seem to assume, though. Nothing to do with anything I've read whilst having a quiet pint of Abbot, either, just months of watching M. Barnier et al in action on TV.

 

I wonder, if one happens and it goes the same way as the last, as well it might, what then? 

 

John

Edited January 15, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

It's a very risky 'branding' exercise for a business proprietor to blatantly express a political opinion, directly to his/her customers. The self-interest component of not wanting to alienate perhaps 50% of their potential customers is likely the main reason why owners of companies don't do this more frequently.

 

I suspect it's just an unanticipated outcome of the issue of the day more than a trend.

Judging by the difficulty in finding a table for lunch at my local establishment, it might be a good thing if a few have been put off.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Tim Martin's recent visit to Ipswich to promote his views on Brexit in one of his two pubs (he has just closed the third) received quite some publicity in the local paper. I have mixed views about his use of Wetherspoons to promote his views to a "captive " audience. As has been said, you don't have to use his pubs if you don't share views, but a number of his clients probably don't have the wherewithal or desire to drink/eat elsewhere.

 

For those interested in AB Inbevs marketing policies (Ozexpatriate's post #11) i commend reading Pete Brown's "Three sheets to the wind", one of several excellent books by the author on beer, pubs and drinking "culture".

[melmerby]

It's a very risky 'branding' exercise for a business proprietor to blatantly express a political opinion, directly to his/her customers. The self-interest component of not wanting to alienate perhaps 50% of their potential customers is likely the main reason why owners of companies don't do this more frequently.

 

I suspect it's just an unanticipated outcome of the issue of the day more than a trend.

I think he risks alienating 50% of his customers and placating 50% of his customers. What effect that will have on his customer base I don't know.

Overt politicising by big business just annoys me and Wetherspoons IMHO has overstepped the mark.

 

He makes claims that are "true" whilst berating other's claims as being "lies".

As most people in the UK know by now there has already been too many vacuous claims from both sides of the argument and the accuracy or otherwise of many will not be ascertained until it happens (or doesn't).

 

Keith

[melmerby]

 

 

For those interested in AB Inbevs marketing policies (Ozexpatriate's post #11) i commend reading Pete Brown's "Three sheets to the wind", one of several excellent books by the author on beer, pubs and drinking "culture".

IMHO ABInbev, once the proud brewer of Stella in Leuven, now the assimilator and exterminator of the world's breweries.

 

Keith

Edited January 15, 2019 by melmerby

[Ozexpatriate]

IMHO ABInbev, once the proud brewer of Stella in Leuven, now the assimilator and exterminator of the world's breweries.

We're a bit but AB InBev is, yes, the world's largest brewing conglomerate.

 

Stella Artois is brewed in Belgium (in the plants at Leuven and Jupille) and the United Kingdom (by Whitbread since 1976), as well as in other countries, including Australia, Brazil and Ukraine. Much of the beer exported from Europe is produced at InBev's brewery in Belgium, and packaged in the Beck's Brewery in Bremen, Germany. Stella Artois is also brewed for the Australian market by Lion. In the United States, Stella Artois is imported and distributed by Anheuser-Busch. For the Hungarian market, Stella Artois is also brewed in Bőcs, Hungary, by Borsod Brewery, under licence from InBev.

In non AB-InBev Belgian beer news, De Halve Maan built a beer pipline in Bruges to keep trucks out of the city centre.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Ozexpatriate

[melmerby]

We're a bit but AB InBev is, yes, the world's largest brewing conglomerate.

 

In non AB-InBev Belgian beer news, De Halve Maan built a beer pipline in Bruges to keep trucks out of the city centre.

Wetherspoons = beer.

Where are we off topic?

 

Oh, sorry we were doing politics.

 

Keith

[fozzy280472]

Fozzy

 

The magazine came through our letterbox  at home.

 

Its dark and raining outside, so I'm not really up for leaving the premises just now.

 

K

Fair enough ...I'd be pretty fed up with more junk mail too .

[Classsix T]

It's a very risky 'branding' exercise for a business proprietor to blatantly express a political opinion, directly to his/her customers. The self-interest component of not wanting to alienate perhaps 50% of their potential customers is likely the main reason why owners of companies don't do this more frequently.

 

I suspect it's just an unanticipated outcome of the issue of the day more than a trend.

Absolutely, using your shopfront to publicise your own agenda...very risky. And as a customer am I "right" to ask such propaganda is removed? Or are my rights violated if I disagree and subsequently asked to vacate the premises?

 

As a printer, I have asked myself in the past, what do I do if asked to produce a job for a customer I find morally abhorrent. As an apprentice I absolutely would have said to my boss "I'm not doing that job."

As a boss, I'd've priced the job so high, they'd have been idiots for paying it.

 

C6T.

[big jim]

Looking at the weatherspoons boss I think it would be more of an ecumenical matter

 

He’s the one on the right....no left.......right

[LBRJ]

J D Wetherspoon is a PLC, listed on the FTSE 250 not some "rich man's plaything".

The said rich man, Tim Martin, has been anti-EU (and many other things like tax levels on beer) for a long time.

 

I am not snobbish enough to criticise Wetherspoons for being good at what it is they do; I even go in them most weeks for cheap beer (which is what they do)

[Ozexpatriate]

As a printer, I have asked myself in the past, what do I do if asked to produce a job for a customer I find morally abhorrent. As an apprentice I absolutely would have said to my boss "I'm not doing that job."

As a boss, I'd've priced the job so high, they'd have been idiots for paying it.

Interestingly this notion is right in the cross-hairs of situations where the owners of privately held, US companies (from the very small to moderately large retail chains) have publicly objected to government regulations - calling them "morally abhorrent" and used their business as a platform to disseminate their point of view.

 

Freedom of expression can lead to great complications.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Ozexpatriate

[Bernard Lamb]

Absolutely, using your shopfront to publicise your own agenda...very risky. And as a customer am I "right" to ask such propaganda is removed? Or are my rights violated if I disagree and subsequently asked to vacate the premises?

 

As a printer, I have asked myself in the past, what do I do if asked to produce a job for a customer I find morally abhorrent. As an apprentice I absolutely would have said to my boss "I'm not doing that job."

As a boss, I'd've priced the job so high, they'd have been idiots for paying it.

 

 

I would have thought in this case any body frequenting his establishments would be aware of his political views. Mine are rather different, but I use his pubs when it suits me to do so and ignore the propaganda. 

As regards customers with whom you have a severe moral disagreement. My dad did all the printing for Ron Hubbard when he started up in the UK. His money was as good as any other customer and paid for a few holidays that we probably would not have been able to afford without his business. Pricing was along the lines of what you suggest but he was in no position to argue. To go into details would break the forum rules regarding religion and politics.    

Bernard 

[LBRJ]

Absolutely, using your shopfront to publicise your own agenda...very risky. And as a customer am I "right" to ask such propaganda is removed? Or are my rights violated if I disagree and subsequently asked to vacate the premises?

 

As a printer, I have asked myself in the past, what do I do if asked to produce a job for a customer I find morally abhorrent. As an apprentice I absolutely would have said to my boss "I'm not doing that job."

As a boss, I'd've priced the job so high, they'd have been idiots for paying it.

 

C6T.

My bold

 

You can ask for what you want - They can always agree or disagree with your request.

Being private licensed premises they can also tell you to leave the premises forthwith, without even giving a reason - You don't have any rights.

[Mike Storey]

Just to be clear, J D Wetherspoon is not HIS company. He went public in the 1980's. He is a minority share owner, albeit he has been slowly buying shares back over the past several years, and now owns around 30% +. We had to undertake due diligence on the company when it was seeking to open outlets on Railtrack Major Stations.

 

The share price dropped around 10% after his last financial statement, which was 80% about Brexit, and little about the financial health of the company. Dividends have not risen for around 10 years, despite profits having risen every year.

 

His business hero is the founder of Walmart - pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap, and expand as rapidly as possible - but he has persuaded his Board to go strongly down the route of franchising. In other words, he will dictate the rules of the game, but not risk his own capital. Somewhat contrasts with his political views as to how the average drinking man should risk his own capital.....

Edited January 15, 2019 by Mike Storey

[Nearholmer]

LBRJ

 

I don't think anyone here is criticising Wetherspoons for selling cheap beer, or even for advocating their political views in their beer halls, the question is around what people think of them paying to have political material printed and distributed to people's houses.

 

Looking at ownership, Mr Martin [edited to correct name] seems to own 31.9%, the rest being divided among what I assume to be venture capital groups, the largest of which holds 16.4%. The other shareholders are clearly content that his approach won't harm their financial interests, which is interesting in the light of Ozex's point.

 

K

Edited January 15, 2019 by Nearholmer

[beast66606]

Sorry - I quite liked that.

 

For me there’s a difference between something posted somewhere online, and something posted - literally - through my letterbox. I find the latter far more intrusive.

 

Paul

 

It was nothing to do with delivery it was to do with industry getting involved in things outside of their remit - I don't need lectures from industry on any matter other than how good their products are compared to others.

[Dunsignalling]

LBRJ

 

I don't think anyone here is criticising Wetherspoons for selling cheap beer, or even for advocating their political views in their beer halls, the question is around what people think of them paying to have political material printed and distributed to people's houses.

 

 

That's a new one on me, we've had a JDW pub locally for several years now,and apart from some publicity drops prior to it opening, I've seen no other material distributed beyond their premises.

 

John

[Mike Storey]

LBRJ

 

I don't think anyone here is criticising Wetherspoons for selling cheap beer, or even for advocating their political views in their beer halls, the question is around what people think of them paying to have political material printed and distributed to people's houses.

 

Looking at ownership, Mr Hall seems to own 31.9%, the rest being divided among what I assume to be venture capital groups, the largest of which holds 16.4%. The other shareholders are clearly content that his approach won't harm their financial interests, which is interesting in the light of Ozex's point.

 

K

 

Presume you mean Tim Martin? And the shareholders did not like it - see above. 

[Nearholmer]

Indeed.

 

Why did I say Hall? Tim Hall is or was the Director of The National Theatre wasn’t/isn’t he?

 

No, that was Sir Peter Hall!

 

Maybe Tim Hall was a bloke I bumped into in a pub. Wetherspoons probably. Most of ‘em are.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Nearholmer

[melmerby]

Indeed.

 

Why did I say Hall? Tim Hall is or was the Director of The National Theatre wasn’t/isn’t he?

Too many visits to 'Spoons by the look of it!

 

Keith

Edited January 15, 2019 by melmerby

[Ozexpatriate]

... the question is around what people think of them paying to have political material printed and distributed to people's houses.

It would be interesting to know how the distribution is targeted.

 

I am assuming that not everyone in the country will get one. With a budget on how much is being spent the mailing is therefore targeted. If so to whom? Are they targeting districts that voted a particular way in general elections or the referendum, and from where did the data come to determine the targeting?

 

I'm not insinuating any conspiracy here. Putting printed material with your name on it in a letter box is a pretty transparent way to publicize a position on an issue - far superior to the dark money Political Action Committees that fund electioneering television commercials in the US.

[Nearholmer]

It wasn’t targeted by name, it was a “leaflet drop”.

 

We get lots of advertising leaflet drops, as well as stuff delivered by the postman that is not addressed, because Royal Mail contracts it’s services as a generalised leafleting service these days. There was a non-addressed one with the post yesterday, advertising plumbing system insurance, for instance.

 

It might be constituency targeted, because ours is marginal on this issue, it voted precisely as the overall outcome in the referendum 52% leave, 48% remain. That info is simple public domain stuff.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Ozexpatriate]

It might be constituency targeted, because ours is marginal on this issue, it voted precisely as the overall outcome in the referendum 52% leave, 48% remain. That info is simple public domain stuff.

That's the kind of targeting I was talking about. Presuming that not everyone in the country got one, some level of targeting is involved, unless they randomly selected postal codes, which would seem odd.

 

Proximity to a pub is another possibility since they would already have that list of postal codes.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Ozexpatriate

[melmerby]

 

 he has persuaded his Board to go strongly down the route of franchising. In other words, he will dictate the rules of the game, but not risk his own capital. Somewhat contrasts with his political views as to how the average drinking man should risk his own capital.....

That's a new one on me.

I always thought he was an outspoken supporter of company owned & operated premises and made a big song and a dance about it some years ago during one of his other politcal/economic crusades.

 

Mind you he has somersaulted before on "red-line" policies.

Convinced that the Euro was a failure he stated that JDW would never accept payment in Euros.

That changed when he realised Europeans would willingly pay in Euros in London and other touristy hotspots and go elsewhere if they couldn't.

He was dead against a smoking ban and said it would be bad for business, but he changed his mind and was one of the first pub chains to introduce a ban before the actual deadline (sales went up).

 

Keith