Hornby - New Tooling - Terrier

[sleepyrider]

And then, once you purchase this one, 15 pounds towards next year's exclusive Terrier, FYN no. 2 in green, complete with incorrect boiler... 

One can hope, and yes I'd buy one of those too.

[JSpencer]

On 27/06/2024 at 16:27, Edwardian said:

 

Well, Rails was keen to do a red IoW Terrier in the second OO gauge batch, but Dapol wanted to restrict it to identities they already had 7mm artwork for. 

 

That's one of the reasons I was pleased Hornby decided to do this one, despite having some reservations, it's nice that they did. Dapol had the chance!!

 

 

I still wish and hope Rails will do Fenchurch (already done in O by Dapol). Especially sound which Hornby cannot do on theirs....

[Audens Pledge]

On 16/05/2024 at 18:37, Edwardian said:

 

Is this no. 10? 

 

On 16/05/2024 at 18:37, Edwardian said:

As the details are a bit hard to discern, I've tried to illustrate the scheme on the Hornby sample picture. It's crude and is neither to scale or in proportion, but I hope it suffices to get the point across:

 

 

 

Is that what the livery should look like, or is that your personal take?

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, Audens Pledge said:

 

Is that what the livery should look like, or is that your personal take?

 

Yes, that's exactly what people should be asking Hornby.

[Audens Pledge]

On 03/09/2024 at 19:15, Edwardian said:

 

Yes, that's exactly what people should be asking Hornby.

 

That's what I'm asking you!

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Audens Pledge said:

 

That's what I'm asking you!

 

Please, please fell free to do your own research in furture, as detailed responses are time consuming!

 

However, the conclusion of what I will set out below will be (1) While I think the picture I posted is of No.11, (2) yes, it shows the appropriate livery for Hornby's subject, in particular, the lining scheme that Hornby should have used on its red No.10, which is why I posted it, of course.

 

So, show your workings ...

 

Well, I think there is a reasonably clear answer to this one, though nothing is 100% certain, as of course is invariably the case with pre-Grouping liveries. This of course is the lazy loophole for many who like to defend manufacturers' questionable accuracy choices. To me it's rather like saying, "you can't prove that aliens didn't build the pyramids of Egypt," to which the answer must be "true, but you cannot prove that they did and there are some pretty good reasons why I think it's far more likely that some chaps in the Old and Middle Kingdoms built them."

 

So what are those reasons I hear you ask?

 

Well, the lining pattern that went with the red livery can be discerned on a number of pictures of IWC locos of the period, including the Terriers. The first four Terriers, IWCR Nos.9-12, entered service during that red-livery period. So far as I am aware, the only differences between them was that No.10 entered service after the IWC changed c.1901 from the tankside garter to the tankside lettering we see on Hornby's No.10. (No.9 subsequently received the lettering) and there were minor variations in how the Isle of Wight Central lettering and the running numbers were applied.  I believe all of these Terriers, purchased 1899-1903, were painted by the LB&SCR in same red livery with the same red lining scheme to the IWCR specifications.  

 

Hornby, who, after all, at first thought the livery should be lined black (a much later development, the advent of which IIRC was during WW1 and which typifies the line post-Great War), seem to have been lazy and careless with their research here, assuming the lining style of the red livery was essentially similar to the lining on the later 'IWC' black livery, which it is not. Had Hornby bothered to look at photographs of locomotives in the red livery, including pictures of at least three of the four red Terriers, they could have avoided this mistake. Perhaps Hornby, when correcting the model from black to red did not want to commission new graphics for a different and more elaborate livery scheme, so the alternative to incompetence is that Hornby was deliberately cheaping out on an already over-priced model. Hard to believe, I know.    

 

There are a number of pictures of IWCR locos in this red livery that would show the correct lining scheme to be adopted. One of them is, indeed, of No.10, though the lining scheme is visible, it is not as clearly perceptible as on some of the other photographs. Hornby clearly took no trouble to research the livery of the period generally, if they had, they would have understood what the picture of No.10 faintly showed. 

 

For illustrations see:

 

Locomotives of the Isle of Wight Railways, Cooper et al, pages 39 (IWCR No.6), 43 (IWCR No.8), 44 (IWCR No.9), 45 (IWCR No.10 and No.5), and page 2, which is another view of IWCR No.8, but colourised to show the livery.

 

The picture of No.10 referred to above is also found on the dust cover rear of the Oakwood volume on the line and in Reed's The Island Terriers, page 9, but there is a smaller reproduction. On the facing page is another picture of 10 in this period, though again, not the best for our purposes.  

 

The Oakwood volume reproduces many of the pictures previously mentioned, but worth noting is page 225, two shots of No.7. The top is the red livery, lined as I have indicated, the lower is her blak IWC livery, lined in the way Hornby has chosen for its red No.10.

 

Perhaps of most use to you is the broadside view of Terrier No.11 reproduced on p230 of the Oakwood volume. It shows the same lining scheme applied to No.9, but by now, of course, with the lettering that was applied from No.10 onward. Thus, we see that the Terrier that followed No.10 into service in 1902 was still in the same lining style as the Terrier that preceded No.10, No.9, and the rather less distinct picture of No.10 in this livery needs to be understood in reference to these pictures of 9 and 11. 

 

As to whether this picture below shows No.10, it has to be either 10 or 11, both of which, as I say, wore the same livery, because No.9's tank-top steam exhaust domes had been removed when she came to the Island and No.12 had iron brake shoes from new.  I think, however, we can take this to be No.11 because on No. 10 the 'ISLE OF WIGHT' part of the tankside lettering is larger than seen here, lining up, therefore, with the C of Central below it. The picture resembles 11, where the lettering is the same height on both rows, leaving the upper row shorter in length.  

 

 

  

[Audens Pledge]

33 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Please, please fell free to do your own research in furture, as detailed responses are time consuming!

 

I am very sorry, I meant no offence. My reply to your comment was intended to be a humorous continuation of yours, but it seems it didn't come across like that. 

 

Apologies again.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Audens Pledge said:

I am very sorry, I meant no offence. My reply to your comment was intended to be a humorous continuation of yours, but it seems it didn't come across like that. 

 

Apologies again.

 

No offence taken, it's just that I get a lot of, often bad faith, questioning of some of the things I say about the prototype fidelity of models. I feel like answering that 'I don't make this sh1t up, you know' whereas I do always back it up to the extent I think is necessary to make the point, hence the picture showing the correct livery scheme in this case. 

 

To do more of an answering deep dive means I have to spend the time that the manufacturer, in this case Hornby, evidently couldn't be bothered to spend, setting out references, the evidence, interpreting and presenting it, and I do have a living to earn! And when I do, some knuckle-dragger complains I make too many posts on the subject!

 

So my general advice to Doubting Thomases is, unless you've put in the leg-work to research this, you don't really have a basis to doubt what I'm saying or insist I show my workings!

 

Anyway, no hard feelings so far as I am concerned and I am sorry if, during a very busy week, I was the wrong side of tetchy over it. Age does not always mellow, I find. Just ignore the grouchy old man skulking in the corner.

 

If what I have now said answers your question, I'll be content with a simple "thanks" rating!

 

Thanks

 

[IWCR]

The  lining in  the  red  period  did  vary over  time,  I  have  seen  a  IWCR  Terrier  photo  with  the  lining  corners  turned  inwards  to  a  point  on  the  tank  sides  as  well  as  photos  with  the  rounded  corners  as  above.  Was  there  a  black  outer  border?,  unknown.  I  know  of  no  photo  with  sufficient  clarity  to  see.  When  Terrier  no11  was  first  restored  I  was  involved  with  cleaning  down  and  painting  components,  no  identifiable  traces  of  early  liveries  were  found  despite  a  close  watch  for  any  evidence.  Boiler  cladding  and  most  of  the  cab  side  sheets  were  not  original  but  the  tank  cladding  sheets  probably  were.

 

Pete

[sleepyrider]

Crikey - R30356, ie the red one, has gone up to £164.99!?!

[G-BOAF]

1 hour ago, sleepyrider said:

Crikey - R30356, ie the red one, has gone up to £164.99!?!

check out the almost plain Black one (Waddon in departmental era). Very simple decoration.

Same price.

 

I honestly can't believe this. A plain black terrier for just £5 cheaper than a lined BR Green Accurascale manor....

[sleepyrider]

Or Accurascale P class, 0-6-0T, direct sale, second production run, £99.95

[Audens Pledge]

 

Using Edwardian's original template as reference, I've gone and modified the whole livery. Hopefully, this is more accurate?

 

(Image credit to Hornby)

[Nick C]

58 minutes ago, Audens Pledge said:

 

Using Edwardian's original template as reference, I've gone and modified the whole livery. Hopefully, this is more accurate?

 

(Image credit to Hornby)

Differently incorrect, I think - the photos I've seen show the inner lining on the tank side to be further out and wider (larger gap between the yellow lines). As @IWCR says, none of the photos are clear enough to be sure whether the area outside the outer lining is black, crimson or a mixture, as both colours are virtually identical in monochrome. I'd agree with the single yellow line on the bunker & cabside (wheras it looks like No9 had double lining).

Edited Thursday at 12:56 by Nick C

[Audens Pledge]

Curse the fool who invented photography, but failed to invent it in colour!

[Nick C]

3 minutes ago, Audens Pledge said:

Curse the fool who invented photography, but failed to invent it in colour!

Though as we well know from many discussions on here, even colour photography can't always be relied on!

[GrumpyPenguin]

3 hours ago, Audens Pledge said:

 

Using Edwardian's original template as reference, I've gone and modified the whole livery. Hopefully, this is more accurate?

 

(Image credit to Hornby)

Personally I think it's an excellent job and (more importantly to me at least) looks good, it certainly looks the part and in any case may have looked different during it's lifetime anyway.

There will of course always be somebody who thinks they may know better.

[JSpencer]

On 08/09/2024 at 19:39, G-BOAF said:

check out the almost plain Black one (Waddon in departmental era). Very simple decoration.

Same price.

 

I honestly can't believe this. A plain black terrier for just £5 cheaper than a lined BR Green Accurascale manor....

 

That could inspire Dapol to do another run!

[Audens Pledge]

16 hours ago, JSpencer said:

That could inspire Dapol to do another run!

Is it likely that Dapol would do another batch when they've still got the first batch in stock?

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/collections/steam-locomotives-2?gf_518168=410323222751

Edited Friday at 08:01 by Audens Pledge

[JSpencer]

2 hours ago, Audens Pledge said:

Is it likely that Dapol would do another batch when they've still got the first batch in stock?

 

https://www.Dapol.co.uk/collections/steam-locomotives-2?gf_518168=410323222751

 

8 different locos (which seems a lot) for a total of 57 models in stock which are not well advertised. I don't think these low quantities left will be a blocking point.

[Karl]

The problem with the Dapol one is the running plate. I had 6 (in 2 3s) versions all which had a pronounced bend in them forward of the tanks which really detracted from their appearance, once seen can't be unseen. And I've seen very few that don't have this. Other than that it was a superior model to the Hornby one. I think for either company releases in more SECR liveries wouldn't sell but Umber which Hornby haven't done seems to sell incredibly well. So I think liveries would have to be selective but I see no reason for another release not to be successful. If the running plate on the Dapol one was fixed I could see me getting several.

Edited Friday at 15:03 by Karl

[Ian J.]

The roof and some other details like the coal bunker guard rails of the Dapol still need retooling to be worth buying again.

[Audens Pledge]

On 13/09/2024 at 16:02, Karl said:

The problem with the Dapol one is the running plate. I had 6 (in 2 3s) versions all which had a pronounced bend in them forward of the tanks which really detracted from their appearance, once seen can't be unseen. And I've seen very few that don't have this.

 

I've recently bought a Dapol Terrier, and it doesn't have that issue. In fact the only issue I've got is how tight all the circuit boards fit into the body.

 

(It also kept stalling on points, even after running in for an hour. Additional running in sorted that, and I'm putting it down to the fact it had been sitting in a warehouse for a couple of years.)

[Audens Pledge]

On 25/01/2024 at 14:23, IWCR said:

There  is  a  detailed  painting  specification  in  existence  issued  by  the  Isle  of  Wight  Central  Railway  to  Brighton  works  for  the  painting  of  the  Terriers  purchased  by  them.  This  spec  is  far  and  above  anything  the Central  would  have  done  themselves  however  the  repaint  was  part  of  the  purchase  price.  Anything  the  Central  painted  red  themselves  was  likely  a  Red  Oxide  base  colour  with  varnish  over,  there  was  a  noted  reluctance    to  spend  money.   

 

Pete

 

Is it possible to share an image of this painting specification? Sounds like it could solve the discussion on what the livery should have been.

Edited 3 hours ago by Audens Pledge