Formula 1 2019

[Hobby]

Hydrogen is having enough problems making an impact outside motorsport, let alone in it! Would it be a wise idea to use it as a fuel where cars regularly crash into each other and other obstacles? We have enough issues with more conventional forms of fuel without adding something like hydrogen which according to this article hasn't the best of safety records even with it's low use (though the explosions have been at storage/production plants not in the vehicles)... So far...

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/analysis-do-hydrogen-powered-cars-have-future

[Mike Storey]

It will be interesting to see which way F1 goes with traction power. One of the key things, these days, is that F1 tries out innovations which might be used in commercial vehicle production some years down the road. Formula E already does that for purely electric vehicles (hence the entry by some of the bigger boys into the series recently), and F1 is doing that now for Hybrids. What next?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

12 hours ago, Steadfast said:

... whether we'll get ever get electric cars that make better noises than the motor on my kitchen blender...

Like it or not, noise is audible evidence of inefficiency. So the quietness is the coming thing.

 

There's no dreadful problem with hydrogen relative to the dangers from current hydrocarbon fuel. What with hydrogen having such low density it rapidly goes up and away while combusting, rather than soaking you in a combusting pool of liquid fuel.

[ejstubbs]

12 hours ago, Steadfast said:

F1 could never go fully electric as legally Formula E has that locked up

 

That's a money and governance issue, really.  Liberty Media could, for example, buy Formula E Holdings, or buy the rights off them.  They would probably need the FIA to agree to it, since they are the ultimate sanctioning body for the series, and the FIA might say no, but the rights could undoubtedly be transferred to someone else who wanted them and who had agreement from the FIA.  I also suspect that Formula E Holdings don't hold the rights in perpetuity - these things usually lapse after a time, or come up for renewal (like the rights to turn a book in to a film).  FWIW I have no idea how it might cost to acquire Formula E Holdings, or their rights to the formula - that would likely be down to Formula E Holdings' financial state, of which I have no knowledge.

 

Bottom line: something being "legally locked up" can almost always be overcome, if required, by the expenditure of money and/or time.

Edited December 3, 2019 by ejstubbs

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

There's no dreadful problem with hydrogen relative to the dangers from current hydrocarbon fuel. 

 

No, except it's far more dangerous, especially when put in an environment where accidents are a real and present danger... I love your confidence however I don't share it. If ever there's a disaster waiting to happen a grid full of hydrogen powered race cars is it...

Edited December 3, 2019 by Hobby

[PhilJ W]

4 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Like it or not, noise is audible evidence of inefficiency. So the quietness is the coming thing.

 

There's no dreadful problem with hydrogen relative to the dangers from current hydrocarbon fuel. What with hydrogen having such low density it rapidly goes up and away while combusting, rather than soaking you in a combusting pool of liquid fuel.

 

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

No, except it's far more dangerous, especially when put in an environment where accidents are a real and present danger... I love your confidence however I don't share it. If ever there's a disaster waiting to happen a grid full of hydrogen powered race cars is it...

We use LPG in road vehicles without any problems. The containers used for LPG are designed and built to withstand heavy impact. The same could apply to hydrogen, as long as it is safely contained there shouldn't be any problems.

[Hobby]

But a racing environment cannit be compared with a normal public road. If it was safe they'd have already be racing them as it's been around for a long time.

[Jonboy]

18 hours ago, Steadfast said:

I have to agree, as buying a 5 year old second hand car and having to spend multiple times the value of the car you just bought replacing the batteries doesn't seem sustainable, either financially or environmentally..

someone that hasn’t ever been involved with forklift trucks I’m guessing....I am just selling off a 36 year old truck with its third battery, 1 full refurbishment and still fully operational...

[newbryford]

Not F1....

 

Formula E has just been granted World Championship status by the FIA.

https://www.fia.com/news/formula-e-turns-fia-world-championship-season-seven

[Oldddudders]

48 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Not F1....

 

Formula E has just been granted World Championship status by the FIA.

https://www.fia.com/news/formula-e-turns-fia-world-championship-season-seven

ISTR one of the US team sports has a World Series. And if I looked far enough I'd probably find there is one for Tiddlywinks. Formula E has some way to go before it overtakes F1 in the general motorsport mind. 

[57xx]

On 01/12/2019 at 16:52, melmerby said:

With the competitive racing in Formula E and advancements in battery/motor/control systems for electric vehicles it must be only time before F1 goes all electric.

Maybe much more powerful motors than Formula E and limits on how many kWh of power each car can carry and consume, with stops to change tyres and batteries?

 

They could get Halfords and Kwikfit to tender to be official pit crew.

[RJS1977]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

ISTR one of the US team sports has a World Series. And if I looked far enough I'd probably find there is one for Tiddlywinks. Formula E has some way to go before it overtakes F1 in the general motorsport mind. 

 

And let's remember that the reason a lot of the FE grid are in FE is because they weren't good enough for F1.....

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎03‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 16:09, PhilJ W said:

 

We use LPG in road vehicles without any problems. The containers used for LPG are designed and built to withstand heavy impact. The same could apply to hydrogen, as long as it is safely contained there shouldn't be any problems.

Quite agree, I've seen the written off remains of a LPG powered car that had clearly been in a hefty shunt (followed by a 360+ roll over by the look of it) and the gas tank was barely scratched. The fuel system got salvaged for overhaul and re-use, apart from that and the gearbox nothing much else looked retrievable.

 

I've already decided that my first non-IC vehicle will be hydrogen powered, I'd have to run a cable across my neighbour's ground to charge an electric one and having to stop for half an hour for a recharge on long trips (plus however long it takes to get to the front of the queue for a charger) isn't my idea of fun.

 

Does the Earth hold enough of the necessary elements to power battery cars for all anyway?

 

John

Edited December 5, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[RedgateModels]

21 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Quite agree, I've seen the written off remains of a LPG powered car that had clearly been in a hefty shunt (followed by a 360+ roll over by the look of it) and the gas tank was barely scratched. The fuel system got salvaged for overhaul and re-use, apart from that and the gearbox nothing much else looked retrievable.

 

On the other hand a (legendary) mate of mine took out half his street when he did some dodgy electrical work on his dual fuel Landy, electrical fire set fire to the petrol tank which then took out the LPG like a bomb. Many, many widows blown out .......

[Kingzance]

59 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 

On the other hand a (legendary) mate of mine took out half his street when he did some dodgy electrical work on his dual fuel Landy, electrical fire set fire to the petrol tank which then took out the LPG like a bomb. Many, many widows blown out .......

Late mate?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

53 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 Many, many widows blown out .......

That must have been interesting.

 

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

...Does the Earth hold enough of the necessary elements to power battery cars for all anyway?

This is the right kind of question. Supplementary question: and if it does, how big a mess do we create extracting these elements, processing and then building sufficient battery units? If you actually cause more pollution and environmental degradations than by continuing with combustion energy then it is no solution at all.

 

I really suspect the only answer is 'less', as in 'much less'. You cannot enjoy the continuous use of a powered vehicle, other than for truly essential activity, end of.

[royaloak]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

That must have been interesting.

 

This is the right kind of question. Supplementary question: and if it does, how big a mess do we create extracting these elements, processing and then building sufficient battery units? If you actually cause more pollution and environmental degradations than by continuing with combustion energy then it is no solution at all.

 

I really suspect the only answer is 'less', as in 'much less'. You cannot enjoy the continuous use of a powered vehicle, other than for truly essential activity, end of.

Ssshhhhh, you cant mention things like that as it upsets all the treehuggers coz batteries are better for the environment unless, of course, you are a realist and take 'whole life' pollution into account then it swings towards petrol vehicles.

[PhilJ W]

But batteries can be re-processed and the materials re-used to make new batteries. Some batteries such as those used in electric buses have a 'second life' as storage of energy when they are no longer capable of being rapidly re-charged. Then when they are no longer usable for that they can be broken down and most of the elements re-processed, often into new batteries. Much of the steel produced in the UK is made from scrap and likewise new batteries can be produced from scrap ones.

[Hobby]

I suspect not enough for the demand if we all went electric though. In addition don't EV batteries use a rare precious metal?

Edited December 5, 2019 by Hobby

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

46 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

But batteries can be re-processed and the materials re-used to make new batteries...

Yes, but this does not come 'for free': there are energy costs, materials consumption and wastes as a consequence of practically every such process.

 

Do 'anything' on a large enough scale and it becomes a problem. And humanity as a whole is already operating on a larger scale relative to the available sustainable resources than it is possible to continue with indefinitely. The analogy is a simple one: boy racer (us in the developed world) has been accustomed to whizzing along with pedal to the metal, and spots that the fuel tank  is running dry and there's quite a way to go before more fuel can be found. And then discovers that even driving at the most economical speed still sees the vehicle roll to a halt before more fuel is available.

 

No amount of the best possible reuse, repurposing, recycling gets us out of the hole we have dug. Short of practical thermonuclear energy, we all have to be content with less: much less. Electoral suicide for any pol to say that. So it doesn't get said and instead optimistic messages about unplugging your phone charger to 'save the planet' get airtime.

[RedgateModels]

7 hours ago, Kingzance said:

Late mate?

No, still alive and bodging, still lives on the same street last time we spoke 

[PhilJ W]

The main cause of worry with LPG or any other fuel be it hydrogen or petrol is not collision damage but fire. Being kept in sealed containers the danger is explosion which in that respect hydrogen is probably no worse than the others and possibly safer.

[Hobby]

As the tanks for lpg and hydrogen have to a lot stronger would indicate otherwise.

 

I would ask again if it is as safe as you say why isnt it already used in motorsport on a big scale as it has cleaner emmissions. It would seem promoters don't share your optimism. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Hobby

[Dunsignalling]

36 minutes ago, Hobby said:

As the tanks for lpg and hydrogen have to a lot stronger would indicate otherwise.

 

I would ask again if it is as safe as you say why isnt it already used in motorsport on a big scale as it has cleaner emmissions. It would seem promoters don't share your optimism. 

As a fully paid up cynic, I've come to the conclusion that the hydrogen vs batteries argument bears more than a passing resemblance to the historic battle between the Betamax and VHS video recording formats. i.e. the best product didn't win, the industry ensured the most profitable one did.

 

Up to now, the most likely explanation why the hydrogen fuel cell hasn't made an impression in motorsport is because it doesn't make a noise, and the punters want/expect one. I reckon that's why Formula E has limited appeal, and look at the negative reception hybrid F1 cars got initially for being too quiet.

 

That said, it would be interesting to see maybe endurance racing, which will probably always be out of reach for battery cars, adopting hydrogen.  

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

56 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

The main cause of worry with LPG or any other fuel be it hydrogen or petrol is not collision damage but fire. Being kept in sealed containers the danger is explosion which in that respect hydrogen is probably no worse than the others and possibly safer.

If governments had fire-risk anywhere on their list of priorities, there's one fuel that is way safer than petrol, hydrogen or LPG - diesel.

 

John