Formula 1 2019

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, njee20 said:

We’ve done this before, but that’s an extension of the problem with rigid enforcement of the limits. I like to see drivers having a go, and sometimes when things don’t work out there may be breaches of track limits. Monaco is torturously dull because no one can pass. If you rigidly enforce the rules and penalise every single transgression you kill racing because the risk of trying outweighs the potential reward. Applying Pete’s previous suggestion that every time you exceed track limits you get a penalty then Vettel would have had a penalty for spinning off the track, Stroll gets one too, as does Gasly for going into the gravel. Then do you also get penalties for the unsafe rejoining? That’s not good racing at all.

 

I do want consistency though. Albon’s quali lap was disallowed for exceeding track limits at Parabollica, yet Vettel’s wasn’t. Leclerc (no capital C, it’s not “the Clerc”) got away with too much IMO, but the consistent link there is the prancing horse, and as Ian has observed there’s a genuine pressure to be lenient toward one team, which is insanity, and frankly tantamount to cheating.

Vettel got three penalty points for the incident at Monza - not for spinning off but subsequently colliding with Stoll when he tried to get back on.  Otherwise the prancing horse team got away with it - very unusual (NOT).

[njee20]

 

9 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

As for the sector delta times, I doubt this would have been possible 20 or maybe even 10 years ago. I am sure it is now. If you watch qualy closely, drivers know immediately what is going on, even to the extent of abandoning their final lap after 2 fastest sectors if they can see that they have already secured pole.

They will have a good idea that they have gone off limits & the technology out there can confirm this by putting a warning light on their steering wheel when they have done so.

The high speed also makes them very alert as proven by Hamilton making adjustments while trying to pass Leclerc around the Kerbe Grande, so they will not miss it.

 

Of course it can be done, down to thousands of a second over tiny parts of the track, but does that detract from racing? IMO yes, penalties are not a good thing.

The drivers have more granular data than we do, that gets talked about regularly, there are far more than 3 sectors on the track. I still don't want penalties being thrown at all and sundry though!

Edited September 10, 2019 by njee20

[RedgateModels]

Think Mr Palmer sums it up perfectly

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863

[Kingzance]

In wet weather conditions, drivers invariably stay on the grey stuff as they know that to put a loaded tyre onto the painted track limits is likely to cause them to spin. As they can manage their position on the track under such circumstances, there is no reason why they can't when there is more grip and so ALL track limits should be enforced UNLESS a driver is forced off by another. A driver overtaking who then crosses the line would be penalised. A driver being overtaken by another who is forced to cross the line would not. The penalty imposed in Quali is fair. In the race, the penalty should be a 5-second stop/go taken at the next pit stop or applied at the end of the race for each transgression.

As for kitty-litter etc, I think the progressive retardation surfacing such as at Paul Ricard is an improvement and prevents too much debris coming onto the track in the event of a "deviation". It therefore has a marked safety benefit, even if it allows a driver to continue who would otherwise have finished stuck in the gravel. Its downside is that it may well result in higher track speeds as drivers push the boundaries.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, njee20 said:

 

Of course it can be done, down to thousands of a second over tiny parts of the track, but does that detract from racing? IMO yes, penalties are not a good thing.

 

If the threat of a penalty was not there, drivers would just run each other off the track at the first opportunity. Cars would be taken out of the race more regularly & we would see less racing as a result.

 

Going back to Canada, Hamilton pressured Vettel for lap after lap, hoping for a mistake. This was great to watch. If Vettel had not made a mistake, Hamilton's tyres would have eventually given up & it would have been a great win.

But Vettel did make the mistake Hamilton worked hard to force, so he deserved to pass him. He had not backed off so fully deserved to get past.

We would then have seen if Vettel could have applied similar pressure & if Hamilton could resist it.

So in my opinion, it was Vettel who robbed us of that, not the penalty.

[njee20]

The decision in Canada was right. The decision in Monza was (IMO) not, Leclerc was lucky to go unpenalised, whether that was precedent, the team, the venue, or a simple disagreement among the stewards. I want fair application of the rules, which means some (like the Kvyat penalty Palmer talks about) should not have stood IMO. You're saying that every transgression needs penalty, and are advocating a complex system with segment deltas and lights on driver steering wheels  which becomes quite opaque to those watching. Stuff like that stifles racing. I'm not saying we should do away with penalties. It's a subtle, but important, distinction.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

22 hours ago, njee20 said:

...The decision in Monza was (IMO) not, Leclerc was lucky to go unpenalised, whether that was precedent, the team, the venue, or a simple disagreement among the stewards...

I feel that the leniency on the 'track position' questions Ferrari received at Monza probably reflected the desire of the race officials to go home without experiencing any 'directed hostility'. And to make it so much easier, they then got a 'free pass' as they were able to demonstrate the truly unbiased penalties awarded for SV's capers.

[Andrew P]

Do you think as I do, that Danny R is positioning himself for Vettel's seat, either next year or 2021?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49664183

[4630]

Not sure Andy.

 

That might be where Danny R wants to go.  But if by some creative negotiations he did end up with Ferrari, I'd propose that it would very definitely be as their No2 driver.

 

I'd suggest that Ferrari has been more than pleased with Leclerc's performance so far and probably sees investing in him as a better bet for success with the drivers' and constructors' championships. 

[Andrew P]

1 hour ago, 4630 said:

Not sure Andy.

 

That might be where Danny R wants to go.  But if by some creative negotiations he did end up with Ferrari, I'd propose that it would very definitely be as their No2 driver.

 

I'd suggest that Ferrari has been more than pleased with Leclerc's performance so far and probably sees investing in him as a better bet for success with the drivers' and constructors' championships. 

Can't argue with any of that.

 

Just a thought, If the VET does retire early, i.e. end of this season, who would you like to see replace him?

 

 

[friscopete]

Ferrari should try and get Lando  but I doubt it will happen .Ferrari will have then a couple of real racers on their hands.There are others but Lando is the real deal.

[Pete the Elaner]

On 10/09/2019 at 14:27, njee20 said:

The decision in Canada was right. The decision in Monza was (IMO) not, Leclerc was lucky to go unpenalised, whether that was precedent, the team, the venue, or a simple disagreement among the stewards. I want fair application of the rules, which means some (like the Kvyat penalty Palmer talks about) should not have stood IMO. You're saying that every transgression needs penalty, and are advocating a complex system with segment deltas and lights on driver steering wheels  which becomes quite opaque to those watching. Stuff like that stifles racing. I'm not saying we should do away with penalties. It's a subtle, but important, distinction.

Leclerc's aggressiveness at Monza was similar to Verstappen's in Austria, after which Leclerc commented with something like 'If that is acceptable, then that is how I will drive from now on'. With this in mind, would it have been fair to penalise him in Monza? I don't think it would.

 

As for every transgression needing a penalty:

You have to draw a line somewhere. Doing a donut in the middle of the track is not a lap & I don't think anyone is arguing it should, so at what point does leaving the track stop becoming acceptable? Going slightly wide at turn x seems to be ok because there 'is no advantage'. If this was the case, why go wide there at all?

The track already has limits, so stop drivers exceeding them. Being forced off is a grey area but there are some turns where every driver goes wide & this could easily be stopped.

There was a fuss about Verstappen passing Raikkonen in the USA 2-3 years ago when he cut a corner.

Christian Horner's complaint was not actually against the penalty itself but that all drivers were leaving the track elsewhere without a problem & there was therefore no consistency.

Driving aggressively is another issue. We all like to see hard racing, but where does it stop being hard & start being unfair? I don't think anyone wants to see F1 turn into a stock car race, so where does it become acceptable?

 

Guidelines should become rules & they should be enforced so all drivers should know what is & is not acceptable. It will not sterilise the racing at all. Drivers WILL leave each other racing room because they know they will lose out if they don't.

I do not think they should be changes during a championship though. End of season is the right time to do it.

Brawn is in charge of bringing the sport forward but has not said a lot publicly. I wonder what he has in mind?

[Andrew P]

1 hour ago, friscopete said:

Ferrari should try and get Lando  but I doubt it will happen .Ferrari will have then a couple of real racers on their hands.There are others but Lando is the real deal.

Or George Russell who beat Lando in F2 I believe.

[Andrew P]

1 hour ago, Andrew P said:

Can't argue with any of that.

 

Just a thought, If the VET does retire early, i.e. end of this season, who would you like to see replace him?

 

 

My other thought was Esternban Ocon?

[Sidecar Racer]

1 hour ago, Andrew P said:

Or George Russell who beat Lando in F2 I believe.

 

 But is a Mercedes driver on loan to Williams .

 

 

1 hour ago, Andrew P said:

My other thought was Esternban Ocon?

 

 Who has now signed a contract with Renault for 2 years .

 

 

[Sidecar Racer]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

 

There was a fuss about Verstappen passing Raikkonen in the USA 2-3 years ago when he cut a corner.

Christian Horner's complaint was not actually against the penalty itself but that all drivers were leaving the track elsewhere without a problem & there was therefore no consistency.

 

 

When all the drivers are using the same line and running wide or cutting in a bit then nobody gains anything ,

but in the case you mention MV cut well inside the line and gained a place by advantage .

 

Plus which Horner has to find some reason to have a moan . 

[njee20]

4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

As for every transgression needing a penalty:

You have to draw a line somewhere. Doing a donut in the middle of the track is not a lap & I don't think anyone is arguing it should, so at what point does leaving the track stop becoming acceptable?

 

When you gain an advantage (facepalm). 

[friscopete]

5 hours ago, Andrew P said:

Or George Russell who beat Lando in F2 I believe.

Not sure Lando was bothered about F2 .Like Max in F3 he had already  landed an F1 drive so experimented rather than go flat out to win the championship .when you have landed an F1 drive another cup doesnt seem so important .same for the team .Quoting your drivers  that got to F1 is a better accolade that "we won this  or that championship" . I agree Russell deserves better .Seems daft Stroll has an almost decent drive and  others dont .Stroll will make a great Lemans type driver .Stick him on a track and he will just keep going and hope the rest fall off ......unless a Vettel gets the way of course

[Hobby]

Not sure any top driver would take that attitude. They all want to win, no matter what they are driving. Not only does it look good on their CV it also shows a willingness to go out to win every time. If his spot in F1 had suddenly disappeared he would have found it easier to find a seat elsewhere with the F2 championship on his list of wins and had more chance of getting another F1 seat... I think we sometimes try to judge such drivers with our own thought processes, their's are very different, wanting to win being top of them. That's the difference between an also ran in F1 and someone like Hamilton or Schumacher, plenty of drivers "make it" to F1 (Tif Needell anyone) but very few get to the top, that will to win starts early and doesn't go away even in a quiet season...

[RJS1977]

Very few F1 drivers go on to be World Champion (there have only been 7 different World Champions in the last 19 seasons). At best, the also-rans pick up a handful of victories in a 15-20 year career. At worst, within a few years they're in Formula E, or out of motorsport entirely. It looks better on your CV if you're looking for another drive to say you won F3 and F2 than just F3.

[Pete the Elaner]

On 17/09/2019 at 19:52, Sidecar Racer said:

 

When all the drivers are using the same line and running wide or cutting in a bit then nobody gains anything ,

 

Which is just the same as allowing bowlers in cricket to all overstep 'a little' so long as you let them all do it!

But they don't...which is why there are never any complaints when a no-ball is called.

Drivers don't all use the same line anyway. Some may go a metre wide, some may go half a metre wide. When does it stop becoming acceptable? 2 metres wide? 5 metres? 10 metres?

If you want to allow drivers to go through a corner more quickly, make the track wider by re-marking it.

It is grey areas which cause discussion & arguments. You cannot eradicate them all, but this one is easy to solve. Judging the involvement of another driver is different.

 

It also bugs me when starting infringements take several laps to be 'investigated'.

A jump start is detected as soon as the driver engages the clutch so why does it take several laps to decide someone has jumped the start & hand out a penalty? (although we have not seen any incidents of this recently), which I find suspicious because it happens frequently in other sports where a good start is important (athletics & speedway spring to mind).

At the last GP, Raikkonen was on the wrong tyres as soon as his wheels turned, but it took about 10-15 laps to 'investigate'. What was there to 'investigate' after it was discovered?

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

At the last GP, Raikkonen was on the wrong tyres as soon as his wheels turned, but it took about 10-15 laps to 'investigate'. What was there to 'investigate' after it was discovered?

In fact he was on the wrong tyres from the moment he left the pit. Yet because of all the glitzy ballyhoo on the grid, no-one from Race Direction is checking anything. Making F1 into a spectacle rather than a sport is at the root of much of our disappointment. Punish drivers who exceed track limits by making sure they have an accident. City circuits are good at this. But Liberty wants 20 cars to finish the race, so avoiding crashes is better for viewing figures. 

[PaulRhB]

15 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

 so avoiding crashes is better for viewing figures. 

Not sure about that considering the number of youtube channels dedicated to crashes!

 

Strikes me the best way to punish infringements over the line is to use that nice slippy tarmac outside the track limits they all blamed for crashing recently  

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by PaulRhB

[Pete the Elaner]

15 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

 

Strikes me the best way to punish infringements over the line is to use that nice slippy tarmac outside the track limits they all blamed for crashing recently  

 

As long as it only costs them time without making them lose control. Unfortunately losing grip on one side only will increase the chance of a spin & is therefore adding additional danger.

[Andrew P]

Grosjean staying at Hass, Well I didn't expect that!

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/27648892/haas-confirm-grosjean-magnussen-line-2020