LNER interested in locos similar to the LMS's 10000/1

[18B]

Afternoon

 

Totally forgot where I heard this and I wonder about the credibility of it, but as the LMS ordered their 10000/1 diesel electric locomotives, "the LNER board agreed in July 1947 to acquire 25 similar such diesel locomotives and that they were to be based at Leith Central". Has anyone any further info on this and if they did...? was the order cancelled due to nationalisation? or why indeed was it?  

[pete_mcfarlane]

I think it was cancelled in favour of 1500v DC electrification of the southern end of the ECML (Kings Cross to Grantham and Grantham - Colwick) which was also then cancelled. 

[Wickham Green]

Afternoon

 

Totally forgot where I heard this and I wonder about the credibility of it, but as the LMS ordered their 10000/1 diesel electric locomotives, "the LNER board agreed in July 1947 to acquire 25 similar such diesel locomotives and that they were to be based at Leith Central". Has anyone any further info on this and if they did...? was the order cancelled due to nationalisation? or why indeed was it?  

Seems odd to base the whole lot at the top end of the ECML rather than spread them over two or, maybe, three depots - which is what they did when the locos eventually appeared in Deltic form.

[keefer]

I wonder if both were planned concurrently?

That is have DC haulage from KX-wherever then have the diesels take over to the north/Scotland?

[LMS2968]

I'm struggling to believe this. The LMS ordered two only. Main line diesels were unknown in Britain at that time and they were very much prototypes, the first appearing at the very end of 1947. 10000 was rushed to completion so it could carry LMS initials before nationalisation removed the possibility. So why would a different Railway decide to invest in so many of a totally untried not only design but idea? Especially when the LNER would cease to exist five months later.

[russ p]

Wasn't there something about the LNER after 25 single cabbed GM diesels!

[Johann Marsbar]

The book "Salute to the LNER" by G.Freeman Allen (Ian Allan, 1977) certainly mentions the following (as I've just dug out my copy...):-

"The immediate scarcity of good steam coal coupled with an enthusiastic first-hand report of US Railroad dieselsation by one of its chief officers persuaded the board in 1947 to authorise purchase of 25 1600hp diesel electric main line locos for the East Coast Route"

When I bought the book back in 1978 or thereabouts, it was the first time I had ever read anything about the scheme, though I have since read more about it over the years, but cant remember the other sources!

[woodenhead]

Maybe they didn't see an ROI to electrify beyond Newcastle so a fleet of diesels would power the key services between Newcastle and Edinburgh and perhaps beyond..

 

They all shared a similar design of diesel shunter so it makes sense to think they might look at similar diesel designs for larger locomotives.

[keefer]

Wasn't there something about the LNER after 25 single cabbed GM diesels!

I must admit 'single-cabbed' to me suggested something like a class 20, but completely forgot about the US E & F units - these are single-ended and could be described as 'similar' to the LMS twins i.e. with a nose end

[andy stroud]

.... Especially when the LNER would cease to exist five months later.

 

Just out of interest, how long before January 1948 was it actually known that the railways where going to be nationalised?

[Zomboid]

DELTIC looks like an F unit too, with its huge headlight and colourful paint job. There were loads of streamlined carbody types from Baldwin, Alco, F-M etc at the time as well, though most of them weren't as good looking.

 

Quite what the LNER might have ended up with though is another question. Might have been more boxcab (ie Bulleid style) than streamliner.

[LMS2968]

Just out of interest, how long before January 1948 was it actually known that the railways where going to be nationalised?

The act allowing nationalisation was the Transport Act of 6th August 1947 (10 & 11 Geo VI cap. ixiii), although the discussions would have gone on long before that. I suspect that nationalisation was expected by the end of World War II.

[brack]

If they had not been nationalised, the railways would presumably have been in line for an enormous cheque from the government for their efforts during the war (like those in Northern Ireland - the SLNCR and GNRI spent theirs at beyer peacock). If they'd received such a lump sum it'd be an ideal time for heavy capital investment in diesels or electrics. The government of the day had a policy of nationalising public services and realised it'd be cheaper to nationalise than to pay compensation for wartime service (plus most of the big 4 were up the creek financially and we couldn't risk them going bankrupt).

[TheSignalEngineer]

The act allowing nationalisation was the Transport Act of 6th August 1947 (10 & 11 Geo VI cap. ixiii), although the discussions would have gone on long before that. I suspect that nationalisation was expected by the end of World War II.

The Bill was published in November 1946. Given the complexity of what was taken into the BTC it would probably have been in preparation very soon after the Attlee government was elected in 1945. Edited December 4, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[Wickham Green]

The Bill was published in November 1946. Given the complexity of what was taken into the BTC it would probably have been in preparation very soon after the Attlee government was elected in 1945.

And the intention to nationalise various industries would have been a central plank of their manifesto ......... so no great secret !

[luckymucklebackit]

Another odd part of the statement. Leith Central was still an operational passenger terminus until closure on 7 April 1952, it was not converted to a DMU depot until 1956!

 

Jim

[TravisM]

I think this has been discussed on here before and from what I recall, the LNER was looking to electrify pre war, not just the Woodhead route with 1500V DC but down to Kings Cross and as far north as York and Leeds. We all know what happened between 1939 and 1945 so there was no money or political will to do the project post war.

[woodenhead]

Another odd part of the statement. Leith Central was still an operational passenger terminus until closure on 7 April 1952, it was not converted to a DMU depot until 1956!

 

Jim

But at that point Haymarket was a fully functioning steam depot and would remain mainly steam to serve services that weren't covered by the diesels.  Establishing a new clean depot would have been a sensible approach, we all know how difficult it was looking after gleaming new diesels in rundown steam sheds under BR, they just needed some space to build a shed and perhaps Leith was the most appropriate place.

[Wickham Green]

One thought ! ( careful now ) ........ What became the Woodhead class 76 was a well developed design before the war and a prototype had been completed ( later "Tommy" ) - but how much work IF ANY had been done on the design of the larger locos ( class 77 ) ? ........... and at what stage did Ivatt's bogies get incorporated ?

[TravisM]

I believe that the EM1’s (Class 76) and EM2’s (Class 77) were similar electrically and the prototype 26000 “Tommy” (can’t remember the LNER number) was a one off and the production batch were a revised version with a noticeably different but similar in body style and the EM2’s were just a extended version. I think the Ivatt bogies were the best option at the time and a proven design.

 

It’s a shame that E26000 “Tommy” was never saved though I believe it was offered to NS after withdrawal but declined.

Edited December 5, 2018 by jools1959

[Bucoops]

I think this has been discussed on here before and from what I recall, the LNER was looking to electrify pre war, not just the Woodhead route with 1500V DC but down to Kings Cross and as far north as York and Leeds. We all know what happened between 1939 and 1945 so there was no money or political will to do the project post war.

 

And out of Liverpool St

[Wickham Green]

I believe that the EM1’s (Class 76) and EM2’s (Class 77) were similar electrically and the prototype 26000 “Tommy” (can’t remember the LNER number) was a one off and the production batch were a revised version with a noticeably different but similar in body style and the EM2’s were just a extended version. I think the Ivatt bogies were the best option at the time and a proven design.

 

The EM2s were VERY different mechanically and I doubt if they shared much with the EM1s other than stylistically. 

Whatever the exact date, the Ivatt bogies were virtually the ONLY British-designed 6-wheeled locomotive bogies at the time* ...... and were also used - a little later - for the first-batch 'Warships'. I was wondering whether they might actually have been a co-operative venture between the two railways - as they worked closely in other fields during the war.

 

* 'Leader' and 'Hornbys' excepted

[pete_mcfarlane]

One thought ! ( careful now ) ........ What became the Woodhead class 76 was a well developed design before the war and a prototype had been completed ( later "Tommy" ) - but how much work IF ANY had been done on the design of the larger locos ( class 77 ) ? ........... and at what stage did Ivatt's bogies get incorporated ?

 

The EM2s were a later BR design from the early 1950s and weren't part of the LNER plans for the Woodhead route, which involved the EM1s and the reuse of the older ex-NER 1500v DC electrics (this got as far as rebuilding one of the BoBo locos for use as a banker). 

 

The EM2 came about because of the poor riding of the EM1 at speed. This was only discovered when the prototype was loaned to the Dutch after the war.  The EM2s were orders for the Woodhead passenger services, and the ex-NER locos became surplus and were mostly scrapped. 

[The Johnster]

Why Leith was chosen I have no idea, but it made very good sense to have a specific depot for early diesel operation, to centralise maintenance and facilities,  I'm guessing that they had Edinburgh-Newcastle operation in mind, and possibly Glasgow and Dundee as well, route that might have suited the diesels' power output and tractive effort but did not require very high speed.

 

The F units were very influential in stylistic terms, and the Ivatt twins and prototype Deltic are clearly a nod in that direction.

[Nearholmer]

This LNER plan is “old news” in that it was reported in some detail in the technical, if no enthusiast, press at the time, and I think it is referenced in the standard works on the history of BR, e.g. Bonavia.

 

I’m not at home, so can’t check, but I think Railway Gazette contained most info on one iteration of the plan, which was very “Deltic-like” in having a fleet of 22 (or was it 25?) split Edinburgh and London, to cover the top expresses and have a pair spare for overhaul.

 

That particular version of the plan was a stopgap until electrification Yorkshire-London, at which stage the London locos were to move home northwards. Very like the staging of the WCML using pairs of 50s on the northern but thirty years later. My guess, no more, is that once the whole fleet got to Scotland, they could displace steam on the heavy trains north of Edinburgh.

 

 

 

They were to be pairs of 1600hp, so yielding much like a Deltic, but I think pulling heavier, slower, trains. What I don’t remember from the sources is anything about them being single-ended, although that would clearly have worked.

 

One big issue was platform space at K+, so maybe losing a couple of cabs was about reducing length.

 

I’m not totally convinced that the LNER really envisaged buying from the US, but would be interested see credible evidence that they did. To me, a more credible option would have been to buy as the LMS and SR did, but there was the question of effective competition, and the fact that the LNER chairman was also chairman of Brush, which is why they bought some ‘not EE’ diesel shunters.

 

Maybe we can fantasise these 1600hp locos as having Petter 2-stroke engines (good for compactness) and Brush electrical kit, but what bogies???

Edited December 5, 2018 by Nearholmer