Lima locos

[D08]

Hi, as a newbie I'm now looking to buy a second loco. I presently have a Bachmann EWS 08 as my layout will be based around a marshalling yard.

I am now looking to buy a railfreight class 20 or 37. Lima keeps cropping up, but as an old sod I have only really heard of Hornby, and I am just getting my head around Bachmann.

So, are Lima any good? Thanks, Tim.

[Guest teacupteacup]

Hi, as a newbie I'm now looking to buy a second loco. I presently have a Bachmann EWS 08 as my layout will be based around a marshalling yard.

I am now looking to buy a railfreight class 20 or 37. Lima keeps cropping up, but as an old sod I have only really heard of Hornby, and I am just getting my head around Bachmann.

So, are Lima any good? Thanks, Tim.

It depends on how much you want to spend, if it isnt an issue then go for a Bachmann 20 and a Bachmann or ViTrains 37

 

If money is tight, then the Lima versions are both good but the running of Lima 37's can be iffy at times, if you can, go for a Hornby Railroad version of each as they have better motors.  

 

If detail is your thing, then Bachmann and ViTrains are your friends, if you're in the 'if it looks right, it is right' camp, then Lima/Hornby Railroad are perfectly adequate

[D08]

Thanks for the quick reply teacup, reliability is more important than detail. I am a pensioner, with iffy eyesight, so detail is no big deal, I just want to go in the shed and play. I have come to the conclusion that the overlap of railfreight and EWS suits me and my love of diesels. Money is an issue, but so is reliability. Thanks, Tim.

[The Johnster]

Lima were an Italian firm that entered the UK market in the ;ate 70s with a 'budget' range.  Some of the models were not at all bad in terms of scale and detail, and the good news from your point of view is that they were very good at diesels (some of the steam offerings were a bit crude below the footplate and the motors intruded into the cabs).  They went under in 2004 but were in decline in the UK long before that' 

 

Pros:  low prices, good haulage capacity, well detailed plastic mouldings, bombproof reliable running, good liveries and printing.  Cons: everything is moulded with not much in the way of separate handrails or other details, gearing is very high resulting in unrealistic top speeds and the need to maintain very strict standards of cleanliness of track and pickup to have any hope of decent slow running, noisy (compared to modern models), very large and visually intrusive couplings.  

 

Plenty are available on eBay, and you should be able to kit yourself out at a fraction of what new models would have cost you.  The wheels are another problem that I should have perhaps listed in 'cons'; they are as sort of brass/steel alloy compound which attracts dirt.  Keep everything clean and you will be able to achieve reasonable running, but new models from the current RTR manufacturers will be much better and easier to keep clean. 

 

I have a Lima class 117 dmu which I converted many years ago to 116 configuration; this is over 40 years old and still performs very well indeed, and as far as I can remember has never had any attention beyond cleaning, not even replacement carbon brushes.  I also have a 94xx pannier tank with a Lima body and Bachmann chassis, which is by no means a perfect model but is not too bad either, though it's had to be worked up a bit to get the best out of it.  

 

A criticism even in the late 70s was the very thick plastic; this is particularly apparent in coach windows and diesel cabs.  Not much you can do about this, though 'flush glazing' kits are available; trouble is they give a sort of prismatic effect at the edges.  A bit of detailing, particularly pipes/hoses and better buffers, will 'lift' most Lima diesels and very considerably improve the appearance.  

 

To summarize, Tim, a Lima 20 or 37 will be fine; your question 'are they any good' is best answered by 'not bad, but not up to modern standards, but then again a fraction of modern prices'.  Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.

 

Welcome to the insanity, I mean hobby, and good luck with your efforts.  As a fellow impoverished pensioner I can understand your money worries; I am bothered by detail and have to say that models like this would not do for me.  But I 'only' run a fairly small BLT and can afford to indulge myself with modern locos as I don't need many and don't need very large amounts of stock either, just as well with freight wagons around the £20 a pop mark...  Prices are increasing, and increasing new prices will drag eBay prices up as well, so I would recommend buying your locos sooner rather than later, but temper this with not being in such a rush that you end up with ones that are not going to be suitable for your needs.  

 

Apropos saving money, Hornby Railroad has some good items worth your looking at as well.  00 RTR standards mean that everything produced from about 1970 onwards is compatible in terms of running and couplings with everything else, but watch out for some of the older Hornby and Triang Hornby stuff from 'Bay as it was made with a higher than scale buffer height, which looks very odd when you mix it with better scale stock.

 

I can't advise you about DCC; I don't know much about it but I would assume that you will be avoiding it anyway on cost grounds.  If you are going down that road, however, it may be difficult to retrofit to Lima locos.

[DCB]

Lima are best avoided, they have traction tyres and make the track filthy. I have several 37s and 33s but all are remotored with CD motors and run

on on board battery power. V1 Trains are much better with re engineered chassis with Lima bodies but if starting out I would suggest you avoid

anything with traction tyres

[Salmotrutta]

Seconded about traction tyres - especially when they get old and mankey and tend to fall off / break up. Can't always get spares either although some locos run happily without them despite the groove in the wheel. Good luck with your new hobby!

[kernowtim]

The lima class 20 is one of their better models and was later incorporated into the Hornby range however it is inferior to the Bachmann model,which has better detailing and smoother drive to all wheels so no traction tyres!!

The Bachmann class 37 is similar in quality although early versions had shape 'issues',

Basically all lima diesels except the class 20 have ringfield motors with noisy gear trains and poor slow speed control , but are cheap and usually reliable!!

[Il Grifone]

Lima are rather high geared (toy trains must go fast for some reason }. A decent controller will tame them however. Traction tyres are a mixed blessing and need to be kept clean.

[Alcanman]

I gave up on Lima back in the 80s. I bought a newly introduced Lima class 20 only to find that the loco did not respond well to slow speed control, just took off like a scalded cat!.

 

Ok for train set running but not suitable for a small shunting layout. I returned the loco to the retailer, he wasn't too happy.

 

If you can afford the money, Bachmann class 20 and 37 are excellent.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...reliability is more important than detail... I just want to go in the shed and play. I have come to the conclusion that the overlap of railfreight and EWS suits me and my love of diesels. Money is an issue, but so is reliability.

The Bachmann class 20 model is a good baseline standard for a decently reliable drive, and I suggest you do yourself a favour and sample one. Yes it will cost more money than a s/h Lima. But what you get is a heavy loco with all metal wheels all driven and picking up current, a centrally mounted good sized motor that runs very quietly with shaft drive to both bogie gear towers, and sensibly geared for realistic starts and stops and top speed with modest control equipment.

 

This 'centre motor shaft drive' design was introduced for North American HO models by a number of manufacturers serving that market and has been thoroughly developed over the decades since it was first produced. All currently produced twin bogie diesel product other than Hornby Railroad have versions of this drive, and I don't think it is an accident that they have largely displaced the motor bogie with traction tyres from what is now on offer in RTR OO.

[KeithHC]

Have a look at the recent thread on updating a Lima 33. In that are links to a video about servicing and modifying the power bogie. Looks easy and produces good results. I currently have 2 Lima 33's about to go through the process.

 

Keith

[davetheroad]

Fettling your lima motor and drive chain can make a big difference. Replacing the motor with a CD type has also worked for me. They are smooth with good hauling power. the class 20 is happy with 20 coaches. Traction tyres are not a problem so far but with battery power I only clean the track about twice a year. Adding a coating of Bullfrog snot to an existing tyre should help with the black gunge problem.

 

Here is a link to the service video

 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=servicing+a+lima+diesel+loco&qpvt=servicing+a+lima+diesel+loco&view=detail&mid=4D20ACD6E32F295868464D20ACD6E32F29586846&FORM=VRDGAR

[crompton 33]

The one thing that as not been ask'ed . What code track have you got. if it's code 75 then lima models won't like it they will be running on the chairs. You will need code 100 track.

Edited November 18, 2018 by crompton 33

[D08]

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like lima are out, and i like slow and smooth running.

The track was off ebay from a Hornby set.

[The Johnster]

I have to agree with the comments about traction tyres; they are Satan's snot and will not only stretch and break but also spread crud around your layout, which as I've said is already not Lima's strongest point to start with.  The tyres can easily be removed and given the exciting opportunity of a new career in landfill.  Your locos will still run well enough if your track is laid reasonably level.  You will definitely be better off with a modern RTR 20 or 37 if you prize controllable slow running (as I do) on a shunting layout, and you'll get a quieter, more detailed model with less obtrusive couplings.  But of course you need to make decisions about how much you can afford to spend on your hobby.  A fettled up and refurbished Lima is probably fine on a 'watch the trains go by' sort of layout where shunting is not a priority.

 

eBay is tempting, but I have learned that auctions are time suckers and can turn out to be much less value than they seemed if you get sucked into a bidding war.  I have had minor issues with one supplier, who I now know to avoid, but have had some good results from 'Buy It Now' deals.  Expect to pay about half the price or just over of the new model if it's still in production, maybe a little more for anything not currently being produced, and the couplings in the photo are a good guide to the modern-ness of the model; basically anything with NEM couplings will probably be ok.

 

As you are a newbie, I'd avoid anything that looks like it needs any work doing on it to bring it up to scratch until you have developed the skillsets.  Sorry to hear about your eyesight issues, but reading glasses and good light can make up for a lot of shortcomings; my biggest problem is wobbly fingers!  Avoid Mainline, a branch of the now defunct Palitoy, which were very good in their day but suffered in the long term from an inadequately designed split chassis.

 

Got to say I don't like the sound of your second hand Hornby track.  I would at least take the precaution of having a supply of track connectors to replace damaged or bent ones, and would question the reliability of your points in terms of electrical connections; replace them with PECO, which are much better made.  Much will be said about dead frogs and their effect on slow running, but you should have no problems so long as the track is laid level at the pointwork, smoothly to it's adjoining piece, and all your wheels and pickups are kept clean.  If your 08 runs ok on them, the bigger diesels will not have any problem, but you might need to be careful when laying points next to each other such as in a crossover or double junction, as if the position of the dead frogs coincide with that of the pick up wheels, the loco will stall whatever you do!

[Guest teacupteacup]

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like lima are out, and i like slow and smooth running.

The track was off ebay from a Hornby set.

Have a look at the Hornby Railroad 20 and 37.  If you dont like the liveries offered, look for a 2nd hand Lima version and swap the bodyshell over, then sell on the Hornby shell and Lima chassis

[Guest]

Lima.

Many people are quick to slag them off...

I am not one of them , but each to there own , we are all entitled to our opinions so think before you try to diss my post here.

Lima are not that bad , they can with very little work run extremely well , and be detailed to whatever level you choose. I have 20 odd limas , steam and diesel and they all run as good as anything you can buy today ,may not be as quiet but they run bloody lovely at slow speeds on a feedback controller. Yes traction tyres can be a pain but readily available from peters spares and last for years.

Lets remember here that these models date back to late 70's - 90's and what Hornby were producing at the same time were in my opinion ,certainly no better than lima ,i prefer lima to Hornby at this time period,  they also used traction tyres ,tender drives etc. People are quick to slate lima and triang and wrongly so.

Would you compare a 1970's / 80;s car to a modern car on equal terms.

You can pick up a good used lima loco for peanuts , these things have been around for years and still run perfectly , how many of the newer models will still be running in 40 years time?

But each to there own as i said.

[The Johnster]

Fair points, matto.  The controller is critical here, as we are trying to impose a degree of fine control on a very highly geared mechanism which means that the motor is drawing a very low current.  Lima pancakes can, fortunately, get on the move with the merest hint of a volt, they are very free running and once you have ironed out any stiffness or resistance in the drive train.  This, for  D08's information, is spur reduction gears, plastic and prone to picking up crud, but easily sorted.

 

I use a Gaugemaster HH which I swear by; I have had controllers that I've sworn at!  It is a lovely little thing, sitting in your hand as if it's always been there, and completely forgotten when you are using it, as if there is an unseen connection between your mind and the loco, which does what you want it to do.  IMHO there is no higher praise for a controller than this; I can convince myself that I can actually feel when the driving wheels lose grip a bit with my 56xx on a loaded coal train if I give it a bit too much.  This is nonsense of course, but it shows how 'connected' to the loco you are able to to feel that you are.  This sort of imagined feedback is the more needed with the overgeared Lima mechanisms.

 

No connection/satisfied customer.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Instead of a class 37 why not look at the class 31. There a plenty about and they were used all over the rail network. The Airfix model is in my opinion a good model with reasonable running. Plus it is also quite cheap on Ebay.

[Crewlisle]

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like lima are out, and i like slow and smooth running.

The track was off ebay from a Hornby set.

 

Don't be too hasty!  I have a Lima HST & Lima Class 87 & have replaced their armatures with ones from Diesel Trains Ltd for about £12 each.  It can easily be replaced so long as you can solder the new wires to the old pick ups iaw the detailed instructions.  These new armatures give much smoother running & control on my DCC layout.  So just using DC should be OK.

 

Avoid Hornby track & points like the plague.  They do great locos & stock but stick to Code 100 Peco track & points.  If you are just starting out you will probably find that Peco Code 75 track & points are a bit too fragile.  It is more realistic than Code 100 but you can disguise the height of the Code 100 rail by painting the sides of the rails,

 

Peter

Edited November 18, 2018 by Crewlisle

[SRman]

I agree with comments above that Lima can be made to run nicely with a little work (a few lucky ones run well from the start, a few others will never run well - luck of the draw). However, two related things no one has mentioned yet are the wheels and electrical pickups. Most (apart from some of the last models produced) have a diagonal electrical pickup, with electrical connections from only one side of each bogie. Add to that the brass wheels that tarnish almost as you watch, and you have a recipe for poor behaviour (even without traction tyres). Fixing the wheels is expensive, or the alternative is frequent wheel cleaning. 

Adding extra electrical pickups and wiring can transform running qualities (this also applies to most of the older Hornby ringfield motored items too).

Improve the pickups and add the CD motors or alternatives and you have a good candidate for excellent and controllable running qualities on DC or DCC.

One of my Lima class 73s has a ModelTorque motor, now no longer available, ground down flanges, traction tyres replaced by Bullfrog Snot (an excellent product), and extra pickups, but still requires frequent wheel cleaning. It is on DCC and runs nicely, but still not as well as the newer Hornby chassis for the same locos. I have not done any more of the Lima upgrades as I decided it was a lot of work, whereas dropping in the Hornby chassis (usually bought as bargains) is a lot easier for a better result.

My policy since has been to replace the chassis on all of the Lima models I want to keep, using the latest Hornby ones bought as cheaply as possible. This includes the Lima diesel classes 73, 31 and 59, but not class 37 (preferring the Bachmann and ViTrains models), and DMU classes 101, 117 and 121 - the class 117 and conversions using that (like a class 120) use the Hornby 121 chassis with slight modifications to fit the squared off trailing ends of the DMBS cars. A Lima NSE class 47 received a new ViTrains chassis.

My other less satisfactory Lima models such as the class 33s got sold off, to be replaced by the better models from other manufacturers.

[The Johnster]

I mentioned wheels and pickups, SR man, and banged on about the need to keep 'em clean!  

[kevinlms]

Another way of improving performance is to get a 2nd power bogie. Because they are relatively cheap to come by, especially if the body is no good. Get another of the same type and chop it up to end up with a chassis with 2 powered bogies. Add extra pick ups and weight and you'll be amazed at the difference. I've wired them in series and they run slow with heaps of power.

[dj_crisp]

I have to say that straight out of a box with a bit of running in a modern mechanism will be better than a lima one. Mind you some of the tooling on the lima locos is great and super fine... often better than modern versions.

 

Yes you can get a lima loco running well... but in my experience it was pot luck as some I had never ran that well. So pretty much all of mine went on ebay.

 

Seconded the comment on track... No point spending money on a great running loco and not having something reliable to run on. Peco streamline is the way forward there.

 

Most importantly is... enjoy playing trains

 

Cheers

Will

[Il Grifone]

The Lima 09 (the only difference between an 08 and an 09 is the gearing AFAIK) was good in its time and can now be picked up cheaply*. The detail is not nearly as good as the more recent models however.

 

As long as the rails are code 100 (train set track is usually this size, but it is easily measured with a ruler. The code is the height in thousandths of an inch - code 100 is 1/10 inch), the Lima will run and will be a good starter to experiment with.

 

* I paid £10 for my last one.