Edwin_m Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Fat Controller said: Seems to be policy now to have the roof-well, even if no pantographs or other kit is fitted, so that the ROSCO can find new work for stock if required. The 365s were so fitted when delivered, and that was some time ago now. Some of the 365s were always going to go to the Great Northern so they had a "genuine" need for dual voltage, or strictly speaking only the ability to be converted from one to the other. The ROSCOs didn't exist when the 365s were ordered, but you are correct that once they came into being they generally wanted EMUs to have provision for either voltage. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 3 hours ago, DavidB-AU said: The Desiros are modular so although they don't carry the conversion gear (apart from the 350/1) it's essentially plug and play. Cheers David In some ways, it is the other way round. The 350/1s are the ones that carry all the gear. The remainder of the 350s don't carry the DC shoegear, whilst the 450s don't carry the transformer, AC/DC converter and pantograph. Bombardier's Electrostar and Aventra designs are just the same. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted November 24, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2019 The 707s are spacious inside because they have single seats for around ⅓ of the length in alternate cars. They are also built to the very limit of loading gauge (or kinematic envelope/window as it is often called these days) with near-flat sides and a pronounced tumblehome. That last causes no end of problems as everyone thinks they are inside but their feet, bags and sometimes more are well outside the lower door runners. Cue delays, late running and “congestion” as everyone is squeezed further in. We have yet to see the seating plan for a complete 701. They might match the 707s standing space. But they are quoted as also having more seats than a 10-car 455/456 formation and more than a 707 in both 5-car and 10-car versions. The seats appear to be the same as are being fitted to classes 444/450 on facelift though are to the more generous 2+2 width of the former. Class 450 retains its narrow 2+3 layout. From personal experience these are quite comfortable. Better than the “ironing boards” fitted to many recent types from class 377/6 to date. And better than the IET family. The 701s are intended to replace everything currently running on suburban lines and out to Reading. They might go some way to placating the very vocal critics of SWR whose Reading trains have not only lost first class but also are now regularly formed of 455 stock. Until May all Reading duties were 450 or 458 but no longer. They will also present a much better train to the many visitors travelling to Windsor. Many of those now end up on a tired 455 or a modern 707 neither of which has toilets. The 701s will alleviate some anxiety in the bladder department there. And they will deliver those benefits who ever runs them. If SWR ceases to operate the franchise then it passes to Directly Operated Railways at least pro tem. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Damo Posted August 24, 2020 Share Posted August 24, 2020 Following a staff competition, the fleet now has a name. Replacing the manufacturer’s ‘Aventura’, SWR today revealed to the press the new name ‘Arterio’. Presumably a reference to them running various arteries in and out of Waterloo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted August 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Damon said: Following a staff competition, the fleet now has a name. Replacing the manufacturer’s ‘Aventura’, SWR today revealed to the press the new name ‘Arterio’. Presumably a reference to them running various arteries in and out of Waterloo. Sounds like something from Shooting Stars 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2020 Caught 002 on test at Eastleigh a couple of weeks ago. The front looks ok but there seems to be a lot of cameras stuck out the sides for viewing the doors so it’ll be interesting to see how dirt collects round them. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Damon said: SWR today revealed to the press the new name ‘Arterio’. R2’s ? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted August 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 24, 2020 Do these have proper bulkheads and doors between each car or are they the stupid (and in my opinion inherently unsafe) 700 style open plan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Pilotman Posted August 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, Bucoops said: Sounds like something from Shooting Stars Some useless information for today... There is an airway navigation waypoint in the vicinity of Darlington named “UVAVU” which, I suspect, was named in honour of Vic Reeves who grew up in that area. It is not unknown to hear (British) pilots read it back in the style of Mr. Reeves on occasions that air traffic control give them a direct routing to that point. Such waypoints are purely defined points in space but are sometimes named in connection to what is in that area. KATHY, for example, is near St. Catherine’s point on the Isle of Wight, HAZEL is near Haslemere, AVANT is at Havant and DAWLY is near Dawlish. Edited August 25, 2020 by Western Aviator 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted August 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2020 1 hour ago, John M Upton said: Do these have proper bulkheads and doors between each car or are they the stupid (and in my opinion inherently unsafe) 700 style open plan? Open by the look of these shots from last year, 7 mins in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Damo Posted August 24, 2020 Share Posted August 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, John M Upton said: Do these have proper bulkheads and doors between each car or are they the stupid (and in my opinion inherently unsafe) 700 style open plan? They are indeed 'open plan', like the 700s (and 707s SWR currently have). Zooming in on a photo tweeted by Modern Railways shows it a bit clearer. Edited August 24, 2020 by Damon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phatbob Posted August 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2020 No doubt already refered to in some circles as "Farterios"? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 14 hours ago, Damon said: Following a staff competition, the fleet now has a name. Replacing the manufacturer’s ‘Aventura’, SWR today revealed to the press the new name ‘Arterio’. Presumably a reference to them running various arteries in and out of Waterloo. Presumably, when/if one breaks down and clogs up the entry to Waterloo, they'll announce they are suffering from 'arteriosclerosis'! 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted August 25, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2020 7 hours ago, SRman said: Presumably, when/if one breaks down and clogs up the entry to Waterloo, they'll announce they are suffering from 'arteriosclerosis'! And when running in multiple... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caradoc Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 23 hours ago, John M Upton said: Do these have proper bulkheads and doors between each car or are they the stupid (and in my opinion inherently unsafe) 700 style open plan? As a matter of interest John, why do you think the open-plan design is inherently unsafe ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 1 hour ago, caradoc said: As a matter of interest John, why do you think the open-plan design is inherently unsafe ? I wouldn't call it unsafe, but would consider it less safe. Yes, the units are permanently coupled and thus the odds of the individual carriages separating is much lower than if using couplers. But if the train does separate there is nothing to keep passengers inside the coach (or alternately, to keep debris out), more a concern if the train is also violently leaving the tracks. Less of a concern on the Underground/Overground/inner city, but more of a concern as one gets into faster and longer distance trains. But like anything that risk needs to be weighed against the advantages - which is in this case encouraging the passengers to use and fill the entire train instead of the seemingly common most convenient coach or 2 as well as making some of the passengers feel safer as they don't feel isolated without help in a coach. 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted August 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 25, 2020 ...and to add, no separation between coaches in the event of a major incident on board. Fire, chemical incident, explosion or nutter with a gun/knife could have been contained within a single car and maybe affect connecting ends of adjacent ones, here with open plan there is nowhere to run and no protection. As I said earlier, in my opinion dangerous. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Claude_Dreyfus Posted August 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 25, 2020 But surely open-plan design does make it easier to evacuate parts of the train in an emergency as there isn't the bottle neck between each carriage; especially when the intermediate doors decide they don't want to open (not uncommon on the 377s)? I'd also suggest that for lone/vulnerable passengers the open design may be safer as they are more visible through the train, as opposed to being hidden away in an enclosed carriage. These are being designed as suburban units, so the open plan seems a sensible option. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted August 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 25, 2020 12 minutes ago, John M Upton said: ...and to add, no separation between coaches in the event of a major incident on board. Fire, chemical incident, explosion or nutter with a gun/knife could have been contained within a single car and maybe affect connecting ends of adjacent ones, here with open plan there is nowhere to run and no protection. As I said earlier, in my opinion dangerous. So the 313s or Electrostars have magically self sealing doors do they? If a end door needs securing at still has to be done manually by staff - and chances are they are not going to be there at the same time as your 'nutter with a gun' knife choses to start their rampage are they. The best prevention against anti-social or criminal behaviour is having staff on board who have the power, authority, training (and equipment) to deal / calm the situation or call for backup from law enforcement. A door which has to be locked by traincrew on a DOO train is totally pointless in such situations. However the 700s (and similar) do have methods of closing off the end of a coach* - IIRC its a bit like the inter coach shutters used on the channel tunnel shuttle trains. This allows the train to be made safe in the event a defect / incident means passengers must be prevented from accessing the next carriage. * It might be only every other coach but the principle stands. As has been noted the advantages of these 'open plan' trains is the ability to accommodate more passengers and encourage them to spread out more evenly through tout the train - key considerations on the routes the new SWT and Mersyrail trains will frequent. They won't be the last either - its pretty much the norm across Europe that the 'open plan' design is used for regional / suburban operations - so when the Networkers, 455s, 313s are dispensed with any new build replacements will also be 'open plan' 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Nick C Posted August 25, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2020 6 minutes ago, phil-b259 said: However the 700s (and similar) do have methods of closing off the end of a coach* - IIRC its a bit like the inter coach shutters used on the channel tunnel shuttle trains. This allows the train to be made safe in the event a defect / incident means passengers must be prevented from accessing the next carriage. That's good to know - the first open-plan type units, IIRC, didn't - which meant that the whole unit had to be taken out of service in the event of a defect in one vehicle... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 On 24/08/2020 at 13:53, PaulRhB said: Caught 002 on test at Eastleigh a couple of weeks ago. The front looks ok but there seems to be a lot of cameras stuck out the sides for viewing the doors so it’ll be interesting to see how dirt collects round them. What a fantastic looking real train. The Type 4, that is. 2 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted August 25, 2020 Share Posted August 25, 2020 On 24/08/2020 at 14:55, Western Aviator said: .....There is an airway navigation waypoint.... ......Such waypoints are purely defined points in space but are sometimes named in connection to what is in that area. KATHY, for example, is near St. Catherine’s point on the Isle of Wight, HAZEL is near Haslemere, AVANT is at Havant and DAWLY is near Dawlish. HAZEL is a long way from Haslemere (about 12 miles away), being located just west of Petersfield. That fix was introduced during an airspace redesign in the 1980's and was one of a whole bunch of (at the time brand new) ICAO 5 letter fixes, introduced as part of the new local airspace , SID, STAR and airway structure. HAZEL was one of a batch of new fixes introduced around the south coast, which were all named after trees, or tree related names. Vague proximity to Haslemere was partly coincidental. Other waypoints introduced at the time included... HOLLY & WILLO (Gatwick WILLO hold) LARCK & TIMBA (Gatwick TIMBA hold....TIMBA was originally Eastwood, but that was changed to the 5 letter TIMBA designator a few years later) LUMBA (replaces TIMBA when MAY is out of service) ELDER & HAZEL (Heathrow STAR from the SW) BEECH ASPEN ACORN (DVR & CLN SID's) In the Channel we got the admirals.....DRAKE, HARDY & BENBO . 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 (edited) On 24/08/2020 at 13:53, PaulRhB said: Caught 002 on test at Eastleigh a couple of weeks ago. The front looks ok but there seems to be a lot of cameras stuck out the sides for viewing the doors so it’ll be interesting to see how dirt collects round them. I imagine it will be no better or worse in that respect than the hundreds of Bombardier emus already in service with similar body side cameras. Edited August 26, 2020 by DY444 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenman Posted August 26, 2020 Share Posted August 26, 2020 8 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said: HAZEL is a long way from Haslemere (about 12 miles away), being located just west of Petersfield. That fix was introduced during an airspace redesign in the 1980's and was one of a whole bunch of (at the time brand new) ICAO 5 letter fixes, introduced as part of the new local airspace , SID, STAR and airway structure. HAZEL was one of a batch of new fixes introduced around the south coast, which were all named after trees, or tree related names. Vague proximity to Haslemere was partly coincidental. Other waypoints introduced at the time included... HOLLY & WILLO (Gatwick WILLO hold) LARCK & TIMBA (Gatwick TIMBA hold....TIMBA was originally Eastwood, but that was changed to the 5 letter TIMBA designator a few years later) LUMBA (replaces TIMBA when MAY is out of service) ELDER & HAZEL (Heathrow STAR from the SW) BEECH ASPEN ACORN (DVR & CLN SID's) In the Channel we got the admirals.....DRAKE, HARDY & BENBO . None of which matches the delight of a sequence of 3 waypoints on an approach to Australia. In order: WALTZ — INGMA — TILDA For lots more on waypoints, the book Skyfaring by British Airways pilot Mark Vanhoenacker is a treat. Back vaguely o/t, for underground and commuter stock I like the open car/carriage design. There are scenarios where it’s probably less safe, but overall I’d say it was an improvement (some of the arguments above remind me of an ancient aunt who was passionately opposed to car seat belts and who invented a number of increasingly implausible fantasies to “prove” she was right). Though personally I miss very old-fashioned compartment stock. I vaguely remember the last U.K. compartments built were for first class in NSE’s class 442s, the Wessex Electric units. And very nice they were too. Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Pilotman Posted August 26, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 26, 2020 9 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said: HAZEL was one of a batch of new fixes introduced around the south coast, which were all named after trees, or tree related names. Vague proximity to Haslemere was partly coincidental. . Thanks for putting me right there Ron. I’ve only been in and out of Gatwick a handful of times so wasn’t aware there were so many “trees“ there, although I have heard some of them mentioned on the radio. My personal favourite is just south of Carlisle; what’s not to like about ABEVI as you head towards Scotland! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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