Lima Hacking Thread (was Class 37 Upgrade)

[Lacathedrale]

Hi guys,

 

After the mixed success of the Class 33 upgrade, I realise I've got basically everything required for a Class 37 upgrade. Hopefully with the lessons learned the result will be a little more professional looking

 

The first thing that comes up is that the loco has been fitted with an Ultrascale P4 wheelset already - is it possible for me to re-gauge this to EM and have it run OK, or do I realistically need to get a 'proper' EM set? It is my understanding that if the wheels are the same as those on the 33 they are free to be adjusted on the axle, rather than the stock wheels which wedge specifically on at a certain point.

 

Secondly, is the Hornby Railroad and Lima model effectively the same other than the drive mechanism?The former appears to have a worm gear drive and the latter a pancake motor, and since this engine is likely to be doing a fair bit of shunting in the aggregates siding having good low-speed control is important.

 

My thoughts were that I could frankenstein the bogies and TTS chip from a Hornby RR version with the Lima shell/detail parts, and sell the remaining bits on eBay.  If however the RR version is no great improvement, I'll focus on tuning the Lima as much as possible and spend my money on a Heljan/Bachmann 37/33 at a later day for the 'delicate' work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[tanatvalley]

Hi guys,

 

The first thing that comes up is that the loco has been fitted with an Ultrascale P4 wheelset already - is it possible for me to re-gauge this to EM and have it run OK, or do I realistically need to get a 'proper' EM set? It is my understanding that if the wheels are the same as those on the 33 they are free to be adjusted on the axle, rather than the stock wheels which wedge specifically on at a certain point.

The difference between EM and P4 flanges are significant. Is it not a case of try it and see?

[Lacathedrale]

Of course sir, I just don't have any track to try it on yet and I don't know how that part of wheel geometry matters - I did some more digging and found a thread ( http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/41941-can-p4-wheels-be-regauged-to-em/ ) which implies that if the crossing noses are done properly, it shouldn't be a huge problem but the running could be a little rough.

[SRman]

If it is of any help, the Lima body will clip straight onto the Hornby RailRoad chassis, and vice versa. The Hornby mechanism is a lot more controllable than the Lima one, and has better electrical pickup arrangements. It may benefit from some extra weight added to the chassis.

Lima did some nice liveries on the 37, but it always suffered from the lack of 'tuck-under' of the lower body sides. The windscreens could do with updating too; there used to be etched brass overlays for the windscreen panels, but I don't know if these are still available.

Edited November 6, 2018 by SRman

[tractor_37260]

If it is of any help, the Lima body will clip straight onto the Hornby RailRoad chassis, and vice versa. The Hornby mechanism is a lot more controllable than the Lima one, and has better electrical pickup arrangements. It may benefit from some extra weight added to the chassis.

 

 

 

Agreed, but the Lima 37 glazing insert also requires altering to "clear" the Hornby motor housing/mounting............another option would be use a Vi 37 chassis for the Lima body...............

Edited November 6, 2018 by tractor_37260

[Lacathedrale]

So the Lima body can clip into the Hornby chassis, but is missing the lower body curve? Or is that just a general observation that applies to both (i.e. the same moulding)

 

It looks like a railroad/Lima Frankenstein is in order

 

I have the window surrounds, bufferbeam details, fans and flush glaze already in hand for the Lima

Edited November 6, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[darrel]

And if you can pick up a cheap Hornby tts sound chassis you can have sound as well

[Lacathedrale]

And if you can pick up a cheap Hornby tts sound chassis you can have sound as well

 

The only I can seem to find are new and >£80 - I think I'd rather get a used Bachmann 37 and Legobiffoman sound at some later date at that price.

[Guest teacupteacup]

The Lima & Hornby shells are the same moulding so a Lima shell will fit a Hornby chassis with ease.  The RR motor is great very controllable, however I have had really good smooth control from Lima pancakes when fitted with a DCC chip.

 

I've attempted the tumblehome on a Lima shell as below

 

 

Its more noticable in the flesh.  I cant figure how to alter the chassis to fit the narrower shell so I've put it to one side for the moment

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

You lot are making me want to tart up a Lima 50 using class 37 bogies. I know its been done, does anyone have a link to a thread on improving the Lima 50? My searching has thrown up nowt.

Hornby 50s are like rocking horse poop (I'm only interested in original un-named and pre-refurb condition.)

Apart from the teeny tiny bogies and the wrong shape windscreen, the Lima's not bad. The nose is a better shape than Hornby's for a start.

I fancy doing some modelling too. Sorry for the thread hijack.

Perhaps there should be a support group for Lima hackers

Edited November 8, 2018 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Clive Mortimore]

Why bother, the Lima body is the most misshaped of all the class 37 bodies. Even the early Bachmann 37/4s are more accurate.

 

Roof profile, is too shallow

Windscreen too is flat causing the cab side windows to be too long.

Tuck under is too shallow.

Cant rail grilles are too small, caused by the incorrect roof.

 

The worse thing is all the side grilles are wrong, they are 2mm too short in height. This is caused by lining them up with the bottom of the doors. These are 2mm too high from the bottom of the body. The clips holding the body on have loads of meat.

 

The best part is the chassis, bung a Tri-ang Type 3 on a Lima chassis instant improvement for both models.

 

Better still are the present Bachmann and the Vi Trains models.

[Guest teacupteacup]

Why bother, the Lima body is the most misshaped of all the class 37 bodies. Even the early Bachmann 37/4s are more accurate.

 

Roof profile, is too shallow

Windscreen too is flat causing the cab side windows to be too long.

Tuck under is too shallow.

Cant rail grilles are too small, caused by the incorrect roof.

 

The worse thing is all the side grilles are wrong, they are 2mm too short in height. This is caused by lining them up with the bottom of the doors. These are 2mm too high from the bottom of the body. The clips holding the body on have loads of meat.

 

The best part is the chassis, bung a Tri-ang Type 3 on a Lima chassis instant improvement for both models.

 

Better still are the present Bachmann and the Vi Trains models.

Why not?  Buying a Bachmann or ViTrains one defeats the purpose of modelling!

 

I agree that the Tri-ang shell is more in proportion, but I find the detail mouldings are quite heavy (if you havent already, you should see the major errors on the Heljan 7mm version!).  Having upgraded a fair number of both over the years, I'd say the Lima is easier to work with, and from normal viewing distances, I cant really tell the difference.  Each to their own though.  I've had my 37 hanging about for decades in the spares box so it owes me nothing apart from some head-scratching on how to modify the chassis.  Im sure I'll get there.

[Lacathedrale]

Why bother,

 

Because I got all the detailing parts for a a few quid in a mixed batch, and there was a £20 Lima 37 on Hattons that already had the fan assembly/horns replaced and was configured with P4 wheels? For the £30 I think it's worth the bother - but probably not worth the extra £80 for a Hornby Railroad chassis/etc. and as you say getting a ViTrains/Bachmann model for 'proper' work later.

 

While we're on the lines of this discussion (maybe I should rename the thread as per DGF's suggestion to "Lima Hackers Anonymous") is the Lima 73 worth anything? I'm worried about having a bunch of crappy locos and nothing good - but given that it's approximately £100 cheaper, it's also tempting me

[Guest teacupteacup]

You lot are making me want to tart up a Lima 50 using class 37 bogies. I know its been done, does anyone have a link to a thread on improving the Lima 50? My searching has thrown up nowt.

 

Hornby 50s are like rocking horse poop (I'm only interested in original un-named and pre-refurb condition.)

 

Apart from the teeny tiny bogies and the wrong shape windscreen, the Lima's not bad. The nose us a better shape than Hornby's for a stat.

 

I fancy doing some modelling too. Sorry for the thread hijack.

 

Perhaps there should be a support group for Lima hackers

I done a couple of 50's many moons ago, using the Craftsman conversion kits, although I was doing refurb versions.  Altering the chassis to fit the 37 bogies was very easy, cant remember how I done it though!  

 

Shawplan sell lots of bits for the 50.  Go for it!!!

[Guest teacupteacup]

Because I got all the detailing parts for a a few quid in a mixed batch, and there was a £20 Lima 37 on Hattons that already had the fan assembly/horns replaced and was configured with P4 wheels? For the £30 I think it's worth the bother - but probably not worth the extra £80 for a Hornby Railroad chassis/etc. and as you say getting a ViTrains/Bachmann model for 'proper' work later.

 

While we're on the lines of this discussion (maybe I should rename the thread as per DGF's suggestion to "Lima Hackers Anonymous") is the Lima 73 worth anything? I'm worried about having a bunch of crappy locos and nothing good - but given that it's approximately £100 cheaper, it's also tempting me

The Lima 73 is very good, and again can be made into a great model - well doing if you can get one really cheap. 

 

Some of the detailing parts sold as spares for the Dapol 73 can be used to very good effect

 

From my own view, the following Lima products are worth a second look...

 

31, 37, 40, 47, 50, ,59, 60, 67, 73, 87, 117, 121, 156 & HST

 

At a push the 26/27/33/42/43 & 52 could be made presentable but would require a good bit more work (and the OP has made a great job of his 33)

 

How about an overall Lima Hacking thread??

Edited November 7, 2018 by teacupteacup

[Lacathedrale]

Your wish is my command - still a fair bit to do on my 33 so this won't get started immediately, I was mainly concerned with whether I need to pursue the wheel order for the 37 or whether the P4 wheels would work. It seems the answer is 'maybe'. I would happily turn this over to a wider discussion.

 

It's good to know that the Lima 73 isn't terrible - my layout will end up approx 15' long so super slow crawling is less crucial than on a micro layout, but I think I will at some point have to invest in Heljan/Bachmann/Dapol.

 

As for 47, that really is the only other loco I would consider for my layout than the 33, 37 and 73 in my late 80's timescale - only because I have a pic of one shunting the gravel yard at Ardingly, which is what the gravel yard on my layout is based on. Given the representational nature of the models, how much of the 56 detailing bits I've got would translate to a 47?

[SRman]

Because I got all the detailing parts for a a few quid in a mixed batch, and there was a £20 Lima 37 on Hattons that already had the fan assembly/horns replaced and was configured with P4 wheels? For the £30 I think it's worth the bother - but probably not worth the extra £80 for a Hornby Railroad chassis/etc. and as you say getting a ViTrains/Bachmann model for 'proper' work later.

 

While we're on the lines of this discussion (maybe I should rename the thread as per DGF's suggestion to "Lima Hackers Anonymous") is the Lima 73 worth anything? I'm worried about having a bunch of crappy locos and nothing good - but given that it's approximately £100 cheaper, it's also tempting me

 

The Lima 73 is a very good body moulding, acknowledged frequently as one of their best British offerings. The chassis mouldings are simplified somewhat. The motor and electrical pickups are the usual Lima arrangements that I cannot be bothered with any more, personally. However, I have kept all of my Lima bodies and have been slowly buying up the Hornby versions when they are on special or in the bargain bins, using the Hornby chassis with the Lima bodies with liveries I like, and keeping the Hornby bodies as spares. The bodies just clip on and off so are easy to swap if I want to run different liveries (with the note above about possibly having to clip the spigots on the glazing shells of the Lima examples). 

 

The 73s can still benefit from added detailing, like separate handrails and better jumper cables, but the moulded grilles are probably amongst the best on any models available, and benefit from a small amount of thinned black paint run into them. The moulded sandpipes all had to go on my examples - they fouled the third rails.

 

There is the Dapol model, but I have very mixed opinions on that; better mechanism, much better underframe and bogie detail, but riddled with annoying and niggly livery and electrical gremlins, at between two and three times the price of the Hornby models (at least, the ones I have bought).

 

Class 73 E6012 Detail - 1 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

 

Class 73 142 Broadlands with Shawplan Etched Plates - 2 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

[Lacathedrale]

Right, so I could work backwards with a Hornby model (such as this:https://www.hattons.co.uk/388670/Hornby_R2656_PO05_Class_73_E6001_in_BR_green_Pre_owned_DCC_fitted_Imperfect_box/StockDetail.aspx )and fitting a Lima bodyshell should the need/desire arise?

Edited November 7, 2018 by Lacathedrale

[SRman]

Right, so I could work backwards with a Hornby model (such as this:https://www.hattons.co.uk/388670/Hornby_R2656_PO05_Class_73_E6001_in_BR_green_Pre_owned_DCC_fitted_Imperfect_box/StockDetail.aspx )and fitting a Lima bodyshell should the need/desire arise?

 

Both of the models in those photos above (sorry about the fuzzy one) are Lima bodies on Hornby chassis - not that you can see the Hornby chassis in the roof shot!

[Daddyman]

The Lima & Hornby shells are the same moulding so a Lima shell will fit a Hornby chassis with ease.  The RR motor is great very controllable, however I have had really good smooth control from Lima pancakes when fitted with a DCC chip.

 

I've attempted the tumblehome on a Lima shell as below

 

 

Its more noticable in the flesh.  I cant figure how to alter the chassis to fit the narrower shell so I've put it to one side for the moment

I did one of these years ago and got round the problem you're having by fastening the power bogie to the roof with a press-stud. That was what people did at the time... Can't remember what I did for the pickup bogie, though I suspect I used the Lima baseplate and narrowed it to fit between the plasticard braces behind the tumblehome. 

[Geep7]

Right, so I could work backwards with a Hornby model (such as this:https://www.hattons.co.uk/388670/Hornby_R2656_PO05_Class_73_E6001_in_BR_green_Pre_owned_DCC_fitted_Imperfect_box/StockDetail.aspx )and fitting a Lima bodyshell should the need/desire arise?

 

Another fan of the Lima 73. The above is a Lima 73/1 body on a Hornby chassis. Just renumbered, ends painted over with a better yellow, and sprayed with Satin varnish.

 

The chassis could do with a bit of work to add some relief, but as an interim, i've painted the chassis in matt black, and picked out the underframe components in a lighter shade of black (Tamiya Nato Black).

[Guest teacupteacup]

Your wish is my command - still a fair bit to do on my 33 so this won't get started immediately, I was mainly concerned with whether I need to pursue the wheel order for the 37 or whether the P4 wheels would work. It seems the answer is 'maybe'. I would happily turn this over to a wider discussion.

 

It's good to know that the Lima 73 isn't terrible - my layout will end up approx 15' long so super slow crawling is less crucial than on a micro layout, but I think I will at some point have to invest in Heljan/Bachmann/Dapol.

 

As for 47, that really is the only other loco I would consider for my layout than the 33, 37 and 73 in my late 80's timescale - only because I have a pic of one shunting the gravel yard at Ardingly, which is what the gravel yard on my layout is based on. Given the representational nature of the models, how much of the 56 detailing bits I've got would translate to a 47?

Im not sure there are many 56 bits that can be used on the 47.  Maybe roof grilles but the moulded ones are really well done

[griffgriff]

Why bother, the Lima body is the most misshaped of all the class 37 bodies. Even the early Bachmann 37/4s are more accurate.

 

Roof profile, is too shallow

Windscreen too is flat causing the cab side windows to be too long.

Tuck under is too shallow.

Cant rail grilles are too small, caused by the incorrect roof.

 

The worse thing is all the side grilles are wrong, they are 2mm too short in height. This is caused by lining them up with the bottom of the doors. These are 2mm too high from the bottom of the body. The clips holding the body on have loads of meat.

 

The best part is the chassis, bung a Tri-ang Type 3 on a Lima chassis instant improvement for both models.

 

Better still are the present Bachmann and the Vi Trains models.

I think your account has been hacked.... why bother? I can’t believe this has been written by the modern champion of cut and shut modelling .... how’s your scratch built 47 doing?

 

Griff

[Clive Mortimore]

I think your account has been hacked.... why bother? I can’t believe this has been written by the modern champion of cut and shut modelling .... how’s your scratch built 47 doing?

 

Griff

Hi Griff

 

The Brush 4 says thank you for asking how he is, he says he is fine.

 

From reading Lacathedrale's post I take it he wants an accurate class 37. Now the Lima one is far from that as I have mentioned. By the way I forgot to add the nose is about 1mm too narrow where it starts to curve into the front.

 

The windscreen, needs the driver's and secondman's windows angled back a tad. Well a new screen, plastic card or etched, but not an etched plonked over the existing windscreen as that doesn't cure the problem of the longer cab side windows.

Roof too shallow, that can be built up, but will need all the detail added again. I am not up to matching the Lima mould makers eye for detail.

Cant rail grilles, these will need changing if the roof is reprofiled.

Tuck under, as shown can be done, then the body is too narrow for the chassis, so a rebuild of the chassis is required as well.

Body sides, I suppose using a second body and some very careful cutting the missing 2mm of grille can be added. Making the doors deeper is easy, but then the body will not clip on the chassis. An alternative could be file off the lovely crisp grille mouldings and score your own to the right size.

I haven't worked out how to widen the nose.

 

You could correct all the body faults by renewing it with a plastic card one.......still too narrow for the chassis.

 

Now in days gone by all the work needed to make a Tri-ang loco presentable or detailing the Lima one there wasn't too much choice but these days why bother if you want something more accurate. If someone really wants to model then have a go at scratchbuilding. I am not claiming this is accurate.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Lacathedrale]

Clive thank you for the indepth discussion on the 37 - it seems that the 73 and the 50 are the diamonds in the rough, so to speak?

 

As I have mentioned earlier however, I already have all the components with a total cost of less than a meal out and I definitely need the practise in painting, weathering, detailing, etc. - so I think I'm going to just got it a shot. So, along the lines of the new windows - I guess my fancy SE Finecast flush glazing is no longer going to fit, if I add the A1 models brass window surrounds, is it? 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Lacathedrale