GWR Narrow Gauge Gunpowder Wagon - Identity?

[Arun Sharma]

A short while ago whilst lurking around a slate quarry doing underground zip wiring I came across this narrow gauge vehicle. I'm pretty certain it is a gunpowder wagon for use on 23 & half inch gauge track with a wheelbase of 38 inches [rather than the better known Festiniog vehicles which are 48in WB]. Rather interestingly the axle boxes are embossed "GWR" and their dimensions [and appearance] are identical to those on the slate wagon currently being overhauled at GWS Didcot.

 

The wagon itself is 73inches long with protruding centre buffers being additional to that.

 

Would anyone have any ideas regarding the identity and /or age of this wagon?

 

I should say that the reason I think it is a gunpowder wagon is its sheet steel construction with a door at one end only which was pretty characteristic of these vehicles.

 

The plan is eventually to produce an [0-16.5] resin and etched N-S kit of this vehicle and the Didcot slate wagon.

Edited November 3, 2018 by ted675

[Nearholmer]

Was t the Festiniog & Blaenau Railway taken over by the GWR and converted to standard gauge, but with narrow gauge ‘sprigs’ at either end, to permit traffic to and from the quarries to continue?

[Arun Sharma]

Was t the Festiniog & Blaenau Railway taken over by the GWR and converted to standard gauge, but with narrow gauge ‘sprigs’ at either end, to permit traffic to and from the quarries to continue?

Do you mean that part of the current Llandudno Jcn - Festiniog - Trawsfyndd railway was once narrow gauge?

[Nearholmer]

I do indeed.

 

And, after it was converted, the GWR ran a couple of transporter wagons, carrying little slate wagons, to and fro between the narrow gauge yards that connected onto the Festiniog Railway and at least one of the quarry complexes, at Manod, to continue the narrow-gauge link down to Portmadoc.

 

My speculation is that your wagon is part of the stock for this continued connection. I've just checked in Boyd's NG Railways in South Caernarvonshire Volume 1, which describes the F&B, but unfortunately he doesn't cover the post-gauge-conversion situation in that book - he might in one of his many others, but I haven't read them all for c30 years, so can't recall. I will have a quick look tomorrow, if I get time.

 

The alternative is that it was a quarry 'internal user' built on a purloined GWR slate-wagon chassis.

 

Which quarry were you in? That might help. If it was part of the Manod complex, it would be a strong support for my speculation.

 

Kevin

[Arun Sharma]

Thanks Kevin, that's very helpful - I was in Llechwydd just to the N. of Blaenau

[John Isherwood]

Thanks Kevin, that's very helpful - I was in Llechwydd just to the N. of Blaenau

 

Llechwydd picked up bits and bobs from all over the place, to use as exhibits when it opened as a tourist attraction.

 

This wagon could have come from anywhere around Blaeneau Festiniog.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited November 3, 2018 by cctransuk

[Arun Sharma]

Thanks John

[Marshall5]

Hi Ted, There is a photo of a similar van in 'Llechwedd and other Ffestiniog railways' published by Llechwedd in 1977.  The caption states "One of the armoured gunpowder vans made at the Festiniog Railway's Boston Lodge works for Curtis & Harvey of Glyn Neath Breconshire. These were used to convey explosives from a magazine at the eastern end of the Portmadoc embankment directly into the mines and quarries of the users".  I think that Kevin is probably correct in that the axleboxes and possibly other parts were from a scrapped GWR slate wagon. There were usually plenty of wrecked ones, often at the bottom of inclines!  The Festioniog have a restored example.

The little booklet mentioned is a mine of useful information including wagon drawings.  I did have (maybe still have?) a copy of a Model Railway Constructor from the 60's which has a drawing of the GW 6w transporter wagon used to convey the n.g G.W. wagons from Tan-y-Manod to Blaenau.  ISTR there is also a drawing of a GW slate wagon somewhere.....

Hope this helps.

Ray.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Marshall5

[John Isherwood]

Do you mean that part of the current Llandudno Jcn - Festiniog - Trawsfyndd railway was once narrow gauge?

 

https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Festiniog_and_Blaenau_Railway

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festiniog_and_Blaenau_Railway

 

http://o14group.org/?attachment_id=312

 

https://twitter.com/sodorrymodeler/status/918267235919106048

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Arun Sharma]

Thank you Ray and John - Amazon has a copy of "Llechwedd and other Ffestiniog railways" in stock for rather less than £2-00 so that is now on order. I'm guessing that the storage area to the East of the Portmadoc embankment refers to "The Cob" and Boston Lodge. 

I'd certainly be interested in knowing which MRC had that drawing of the GW transporter wagon - pro tem I'll go and have a hunt for more information in Atkins et al's "GWR Goods Wagons" - though it doesn't seem to bee too good on NG wagons per se.

[Marshall5]

Ted, I've found the MRC concerned - Feb '66 but it raises more questions than answers.  The photo in the Llechwedd booklet (glad you got a copy BTW) shows a 6w vehicle numbered 25020 but the drawing claims that 25020 was converted from a 4w Macaw A in 1935 - perhaps the latter was a replacement for the former?  I'll try to scan the drawing but, at the time, MRC had a habit of printing some drawings on dark coloured paper, this one is sage green, possibly to stop people copying them.  I'm racking my brains to think where I saw the drawing of the GW slate wagons (dia O49 & O50) as it's not in the OPC GW wagon drawings and not showing on the GW Journal index.  Possibly another old MRC which I no longer have.

Cheers,

Ray.

[hmrspaul]

Ted, I've found the MRC concerned - Feb '66 but it raises more questions than answers.  The photo in the Llechwedd booklet (glad you got a copy BTW) shows a 6w vehicle numbered 25020 but the drawing claims that 25020 was converted from a 4w Macaw A in 1935 - perhaps the latter was a replacement for the former?  I'll try to scan the drawing but, at the time, MRC had a habit of printing some drawings on dark coloured paper, this one is sage green, possibly to stop people copying them.  I'm racking my brains to think where I saw the drawing of the GW slate wagons (dia O49 & O50) as it's not in the OPC GW wagon drawings and not showing on the GW Journal index.  Possibly another old MRC which I no longer have.

Cheers,

Ray.

They are in the HMRS GWR diagram book - although they are late  BR 1954.  I can't find a narrow gauge van in the diiagram book. [There are side and end tippers]

 

Paul

Edited November 4, 2018 by hmrspaul

[Arun Sharma]

Many thanks Ray [and Paul] - I've measured up the [now dismantled] Didcot wagon which the GWS believe is a diagram 049 one dating from 1903 so probably no need to worry [on my behalf at any rate] regarding finding the drawing. I'll also see if I can find a copy of the MRC - VCT Ingrow is usually a good start point.

 

Paul - I've sent a query regarding the 6w wagon to the HMRS GW rolling stock representative.

Edited November 4, 2018 by ted675

[hmrspaul]

Many thanks Ray [and Paul] - I've measured up the [now dismantled] Didcot wagon which the GWS believe is a diagram 049 one dating from 1903 so probably no need to worry [on my behalf at any rate] regarding finding the drawing. I'll also see if I can find a copy of the MRC - VCT Ingrow is usually a good start point.

 

Paul - I've sent a query regarding the 6w wagon to the HMRS GW rolling stock representative.

I wasn't looking for the carrier wagons, what diagram series were they in?

 

Paul

[Marshall5]

I've managed to scan the drawing of the standard gauge slate wagon transporter although it's not great due to the dark colour of the background.  I hope I'm not infringing anyone's copyright but if so I can remove it.

Ray.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Thanks Ray - That might make rather an interesting model with a slate wagon parked on it.

[MarcD]

There was a LNWR version based on a standard 2plk drop side wagon as well. It has room for 3 NG slate wagon on them. It is shown in some detail in LNWR wagons vol 1.

They were used to move slate down the Conway valley for shipping from a jetty to the north of Conway.

Marc

[The Johnster]

Thank you Ray and John - Amazon has a copy of "Llechwedd and other Ffestiniog railways" in stock for rather less than £2-00 so that is now on order. I'm guessing that the storage area to the East of the Portmadoc embankment refers to "The Cob" and Boston Lodge. 

I'd certainly be interested in knowing which MRC had that drawing of the GW transporter wagon - pro tem I'll go and have a hunt for more information in Atkins et al's "GWR Goods Wagons" - though it doesn't seem to bee too good on NG wagons per se.

 

The 'storage area to the East of the Portmadoc embankment' is possibly Glan y Mor yard, the extreme southwestern edge of the Boston Lodge complex and, as the name suggests when you translate it, 'by the sea'.  It was used as a general rolling stock dump in later years, and 'Palmerston' was probably it's best known resident.

[Steamport Southport]

There's a gunpowder van here at Maenofferen.

 

https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/5+6/north_wales_ng_1963.htm

 

 

 

Jason

[Arun Sharma]

Thank Jason - The gunpowder wagon is not the same as the one that I photographed  [2 overlapping sheets rather than 3] but interesting that there should be variations on that basic theme. The likelihood of the wagons being locally built from whatever was lying around "at the bottom of inclines" seems distinctly probable.

Edited November 5, 2018 by ted675

[Marshall5]

Ted, the F.R's restored example also differs in several details - end door locking mechanism for instance.  If you're thinking of modelling the s.g. transporter I'd start by converting a Macaw A kit, just as the GWR did!

Marc, the LNWR's port was Deganwy on the opposite side of the estuary to Conway and a bit further downstream.  There is a photo of LNWR transporters at the dock in the Llechwedd booklet I mentioned in an earlier post.

Cheers,

Ray.

[Arun Sharma]

Ted, the F.R's restored example also differs in several details - end door locking mechanism for instance.  If you're thinking of modelling the s.g. transporter I'd start by converting a Macaw A kit, just as the GWR did!

Marc, the LNWR's port was Deganwy on the opposite side of the estuary to Conway and a bit further downstream.  There is a photo of LNWR transporters at the dock in the Llechwedd booklet I mentioned in an earlier post.

Cheers,

Ray.

Thank you both - The Llechwydd booklet should turn up tomorrow and those nice folk at VCT Ingrow have a copy of MRC Feb'66 saved for me. 

[Quarryscapes]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but since it wasn't actually addressed... The GPV is nothing whatsoever to do with the GWR or the F&B. It was originally on a wooden underframe, which rotted away and the body, being just the right size, was transferred over to a GWR chassis. It is shown (although not especially clearly) in 1932 and 1949 photos od Duffws on its old chassis. It also appears in much more recent photos of Maenofferen quarry on the GWR chassis (which incidentally is the wrong way round).