wages staff and salried staff

[18B]

A very odd question! "but" looking at some depot plans and they split the toilets into "wages staff" and "salaried staff" so who would have used which ones?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Generally Wages Staff were those who got dirty and Salaried Staff those who didn't, althouth there were exceptions.

 

At a workshop for instance Wages Staff were the fitters, machine operstors, floor sweepers, etc. Salaried Staff were Shop Foremen, Supervisors, Clerks, Work Study men, etc.

 

I can remember places where the canteen was segregated, for instance Goddard Street canteen at Crewe Works had a big hall and a queue for those in overalls and small room where two ladies brought the food to the table for those in suits.

[jim.snowdon]

A further complication, at least in London Underground depots was the existence of Conciliation Grade staff, so that there would be three sets of washing and toilet facilities. As I recall it, they were the more skilled staff who working in the lifting shop and dealt with the heavy exams, bogie and equipment changes and what have you, whereas the ordinary wages grades covered the unskilled staff who looked after keeping the trains clean inside and out and dealt with the replacement of consumables such as collector shoes, brake blocks and motor brushes. Canteen facilities were split into wages and salaried staff grades, although at Acton and Chiswick Works, as well as 55 Broadway, the very senior staff (the Officers) had their own dining rooms. One of the funnier sides of the canteen arrangements at Acton was that in the wages grade side you had to queue up at the appropriate hatch for each menu item and tender the correct money, which was simply deposited into a closed till. On the staff side, there was a normal serving counter along which you passed, collecting the various courses as you went, and paying for it all at the end to a til operator who had to calculate the correct amount and give change as neceessary. Not a problem in itself, except that the canteen staff circulated between both sides, and evry so often the till operator on the staff side was not too bright at operating a cash register, sometimes with amusing results (well, amusing to us, but probably embarrassing for the poor soul concerned).

 

Jim

[luckymucklebackit]

I started my career in the steel industry, and there was a similar segregation of canteens, management, staff and hourly paid (same crap food in all three though).  My mates and I were "Technical Apprentices" and were salaried staff so we were entitled to use the staff canteen, but the canteen manager hunted us the first time we went in wearing overalls, we were told that we had to remove our overalls and get cleaned up before going for lunch!

 

Jim

[Danemouth]

In British Gas {Wales) manual workers and staff had separate canteens on many sites to ensure staff did not end up with dirty clothes sitting on a seat previously occupied by somebody wearing dirty/greasy overalls.

 

Dave

[caradoc]

When I started on BR in 1978 there was pretty much a class divide between the wages (ie working class) and salaried (middle class) grades. My booking office paid out the wages of the local PW squad, and I vividly remember them coming to get their money, men who were weather-beaten and worn having spent decades in all weathers ensuring trains ran safely by maintaining the track, and I, as a Trainee Clerical Officer Grade 1, earned more than they did.  

[TheSignalEngineer]

A further complication, at least in London Underground depots was the existence of Conciliation Grade staff, so that there would be three sets of washing and toilet facilities. As I recall it, they were the more skilled staff who working in the lifting shop and dealt with the heavy exams, bogie and equipment changes and what have you, whereas the ordinary wages grades covered the unskilled staff who looked after keeping the trains clean inside and out and dealt with the replacement of consumables such as collector shoes, brake blocks and motor brushes. Canteen facilities were split into wages and salaried staff grades, although at Acton and Chiswick Works, as well as 55 Broadway, the very senior staff (the Officers) had their own dining rooms. One of the funnier sides of the canteen arrangements at Acton was that in the wages grade side you had to queue up at the appropriate hatch for each menu item and tender the correct money, which was simply deposited into a closed till. On the staff side, there was a normal serving counter along which you passed, collecting the various courses as you went, and paying for it all at the end to a til operator who had to calculate the correct amount and give change as neceessary. Not a problem in itself, except that the canteen staff circulated between both sides, and evry so often the till operator on the staff side was not too bright at operating a cash register, sometimes with amusing results (well, amusing to us, but probably embarrassing for the poor soul concerned).

 

Jim

The Conciliation Grades were considered to be 'Railwaymen'. Workshop staff were in a different line of promotion and not considered to be so. This stems from the Railway Conciliation Scheme of 1907. 

[Oldddudders]

The Conciliation Grades were considered to be 'Railwaymen'. Workshop staff were in a different line of promotion and not considered to be so. This stems from the Railway Conciliation Scheme of 1907. 

 

Which made life a bit difficult when a man wished to transfer between those categories. My assistant at Slade Green managed such a process on one occasion for a Workshop man who wanted to become a shunter, but it took some doing.

 

As far as Executive Loos were concerned, they did exist at some places - e.g. Essex House, Central Division, where the 7th Floor loo was for toffs, and had a yale lock. The slightly newer South Eastern Division offices at Beckenham lacked any such feature.

 

There was a Clerical Entrance Exam, held monthly, for CONGOTT (Conciliation Grades Other Than Trainmen)  who considered they wanted to swap a blue collar for a white one. My Area Manager decided that one of the carriage cleaning ladies clearly had potential beyond her existing job, and sent her to take the exam. She got 0%, a feat never before seen, I was told.

 

As far as canteen facilities were concerned, there was a strict segregation between blue and white collar, but also between middle managers, who dined with the clerical staff, and Junior Officers and Senior Managers (MS4 and above, for those who knew the grades) who in larger centres would have their own Mess - a term reflecting the military-style organisation once used in the railway. One such Mess was provided at the Charing Cross Hotel. By the mid-80s much of this old-fashioned segregation had gone, rightly reflecting changed times, and I certainly dined on occasions with both traincrew and the Deputy General Manager in the refurbished canteen at Waterloo. 

[carlosantoniolopez]

I never worked anywhere with a canteen.  But the salaried staff and wages grades used different pubs!

[Mark Saunders]

I never worked anywhere with a canteen.  But the salaried staff and wages grades used different pubs!

 

The "Corner Pin" in York was the Headquarters Pub and until recently was still the meeting point for some of the former residents!

 

Mark Saunders

[APOLLO]

The (then) brand new office block at the North Western Gas Board, Pocket Nook St Helens back in 1969 had 2 Canteens and 2 Dining Rooms !

 

A Large canteen for "The workers" (and us apprentices) was on the first floor at one end of the block, a central kitchen and the Staff Canteen. Alongside was a separate "Senior Officers" dining room, and behind that was a small, carpeted wallpapered and waitress served "Higher Managers" dining room. The car park was similarly denominated (with cars to suit !!). As far as toilets were concerned, we all peed in the same pot !!!!

 

I made it to the Higher Managers dining room, once, by invitation, just before it closed around 1990 - the look on the faces of the common staff & fellow "officers" !!!!!!

 

All gone now, but despite the class distinction (and it was very noticeable back then) very happy days and first class folk to work for, one and all. (except the bl**dy finance dept - daily run ins with that lot, as was usual back then for us "financially vacuous engineers !!)

 

Brit15

[John M Upton]

Certain Train Crew mess rooms are still (unofficially) divided into areas for drivers, guards and other odds and sods.  Well betide anyone who isn't a driver sitting over on the drivers area tables and even more if they are in the 'designated' Cover Man's seat...

[Colin_McLeod]

Wages staff get overtime.

Salaried staff don't.

[Trog]

Wages staff get overtime.

Salaried staff don't.

 

I was salaried staff as an STO, and I can assure you I was doing and being paid for very large amounts of overtime.   :danced:

Back in those happy days before H&S had been invented a 16hr to 18hr Saturday Night shift was the norm, there not being enough staff to provide a day shift.

[Mark Saunders]

Wages staff get overtime.

Salaried staff don't.

 

Both of the above did but it was Management grades that had to work the first 20 hours a month for nothing (part of conditions).

 

Mark Saunders

[jjb1970]

In electricity generation the salary/wage division had the rather sad effect of discouraging people from accepting promotion. In my time everyone was salaried rather than being on wages however the non-professional grades retained shift pay, overtime, dirty work payments and various obscure entitlements whereas professional grades were on a strict salary. The effect was that to make the jump to a management or professional engineering position people certainly weren't paid any more and tended to lose out quite significantly. When I went from shift charge engineer to operations manager the shift pay was consolidated into my salary so my nominal income stayed the same however losing various other payments meant I received less each month than the shift charge engineers who reported to me despite invariably working longer hours than they did. The carrot was that it was a stepping stone to further promotion and once you made the switch you had an awful lot more opportunity but a lot of people that were encouraged to apply for professional roles refused because they refused to take the initial dip.

There was a similar pay situation at sea when I worked for P&O and BAS between officers and crew but with much less mobility between crew and officer ranks since officer ranks required people to hold a certificate of competence for the rank which was a huge barrier to anyone from outside the officer cadet entry stream.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I used to get overtime as TO, STO, PTO, all ‘salaried’, but effectively not as soon as I became MS1, which meant that it was really only worth taking the post for “prospects”, because it involved an effective pay cut.

 

Nobody has mentioned a key difference between a salaried canteen and an officers’ mess: beer in the former; wine in the latter.

[Mark Saunders]

Yes, I used to get overtime as TO, STO, PTO, all ‘salaried’, but effectively not as soon as I became MS1, which meant that it was really only worth taking the post for “prospects”, because it involved an effective pay cut.

 

Nobody has mentioned a key difference between a salaried canteen and an officers’ mess: beer in the former; wine in the latter.

 

The best was to be an R/S E acting as MS which would get you all the overtime without the 20 hours for nothing!

[TheSignalEngineer]

I was salaried staff as an STO, and I can assure you I was doing and being paid for very large amounts of overtime. :danced:

Back in those happy days before H&S had been invented a 16hr to 18hr Saturday Night shift was the norm, there not being enough staff to provide a day shift.

Only 18 hours. PWay slacking again. My best was 26 hours on a Sunday day turn which got me home in time for Monday lunch. Over a longer period it was 42 hours on site out of 60 hours on a Friday night to Monday morning signalling changeover.

[adb968008]

In electricity generation the salary/wage division had the rather sad effect of discouraging people from accepting promotion. In my time everyone was salaried rather than being on wages however the non-professional grades retained shift pay, overtime, dirty work payments and various obscure entitlements whereas professional grades were on a strict salary. The effect was that to make the jump to a management or professional engineering position people certainly weren't paid any more and tended to lose out quite significantly. When I went from shift charge engineer to operations manager the shift pay was consolidated into my salary so my nominal income stayed the same however losing various other payments meant I received less each month than the shift charge engineers who reported to me despite invariably working longer hours than they did. The carrot was that it was a stepping stone to further promotion and once you made the switch you had an awful lot more opportunity but a lot of people that were encouraged to apply for professional roles refused because they refused to take the initial dip.

There was a similar pay situation at sea when I worked for P&O and BAS between officers and crew but with much less mobility between crew and officer ranks since officer ranks required people to hold a certificate of competence for the rank which was a huge barrier to anyone from outside the officer cadet entry stream.

 

its like that today with government taxation.

Step over £100k in income be it in any combination of salary, hourly, bonus, overtime or any other taxable income or benefit then your giving 60% of every £1  to the government for the next £20k, plus NI etc, plus a lot of other incentives.. childcare, pension allowance etc disappear.

Stay at £99k or jump to £125k, as in between your giving or they are taking almost all of it to the government, in extreme cases, around the £100-105 mark after losses you could end up being taxed or losing more than you earn down to circa £98k.. ie 102-104% tax.

Edited November 1, 2018 by adb968008

[Rivercider]

Yes, I used to get overtime as TO, STO, PTO, all ‘salaried’, but effectively not as soon as I became MS1, which meant that it was really only worth taking the post for “prospects”, because it involved an effective pay cut.

 

Nobody has mentioned a key difference between a salaried canteen and an officers’ mess: beer in the former; wine in the latter.

 

Yes, I used to get overtime as TO, STO, PTO, all ‘salaried’, but effectively not as soon as I became MS1, which meant that it was really only worth taking the post for “prospects”, because it involved an effective pay cut.

 

Nobody has mentioned a key difference between a salaried canteen and an officers’ mess: beer in the former; wine in the latter.

During the whole of my BR career I was in the clerical grades. After a year, once I had transferred into Bristol TOPS Office, there was often overtime to be had.

 

By 1977 the BRSA staff canteen at Bristol seemed to be used by most grades, and once a week me and my first boss would have a bar meal in the BRSA club next door, washed down by a pint of Ben Truman.

I had heard of the Officers Mess at Bristol Temple Meads (above platforms 5/7 I believe) but never went there.

 

cheers

Edited November 1, 2018 by Rivercider

[Danemouth]

A Large canteen for "The workers" (and us apprentices) was on the first floor at one end of the block, a central kitchen and the Staff Canteen. Alongside was a separate "Senior Officers" dining room, and behind that was a small, carpeted wallpapered and waitress served "Higher Managers" dining room. The car park was similarly denominated (with cars to suit !!). As far as toilets were concerned, we all peed in the same pot !!!!

 

 

Same system in BG Wales and the HM Dining Room closed about the same time - in the way of things I became an HM about twelve months after closure :)

 

Dave

[jjb1970]

its like that today with government taxation.

Step over £100k in income be it in any combination of salary, hourly, bonus, overtime or any other taxable income or benefit then your giving 60% of every £1  to the government for the next £20k, plus NI etc, plus a lot of other incentives.. childcare, pension allowance etc disappear.

Stay at £99k or jump to £125k, as in between your giving or they are taking almost all of it to the government, in extreme cases, around the £100-105 mark after losses you could end up being taxed or losing more than you earn down to circa £98k.. ie 102-104% tax.

 

It's an aspect of the tax code that very few are aware of, that there is effectively a 60% tax band.

[adb968008]

It's an aspect of the tax code that very few are aware of, that there is effectively a 60% tax band.

Its actually a barrier to wage rises at lower income levels.

Salary is an upside funnel, less earn more at the top, but when going above the ceiling is unattractive, the rises stop, and in effect that pay cap trickles downwards to those on lower incomes who stagnate at each pay grade lower.

 

Same effect happens with housing stamp duty thresholds to property prices, where prices stagnate at just below the limit, but then theres a big gap in price in the next threshold.

 

Its a government stealth cap control, to discourage higher earnings and prevent a bubble forming.

Edited November 1, 2018 by adb968008

[SED Freightman]

I never worked anywhere with a canteen.  But the salaried staff and wages grades used different pubs!

 

Around the Waterloo area each department seemed to have its favoured lunchtime watering hole, we always steered clear of The Kings Arms in Roupell St which was frequented by the Ops Management staff, anyway the beer was always cheaper at The Anchor & Hope !

 

As far as canteens go I recall two at Waterloo, one in the island block between the Main Line and Windsor platforms and another primarily for the HQ staff was located in the General Offices but accessed via an entrance and stairs from the main concourse, the former was demolished during construction of the International platforms and replaced by a facility in one of the arches under the station near the W&C Line.