Largest railway yard still in use in Britain

[The Johnster]

I am surprised that Margam is still in the top 10, such a shadow is it of it's former self, and a little surprised that Dolland's Moor doesn't get a mention.

 

The big yards will be sorting/marshalling yards, and handling will take place at smaller facilities.  The massive goods depots of the traditional railway are long gone, replaced by containerisation and lorries, and the mega-big supermarket distribution depots, none of which are rail served as far as I am aware though I can think of several adjacent to railway lines.

[Rugd1022]

DIRFT, just four miles from where I'm sat, is due to get a lot bigger if the plan to extend over the A5 comes to fruition. If it does, the current layout of the five reception roads and four dead end roads at DIRFT 1 adjacent to the Up & Down Slow lines will be remodelled to provide eight reception roads instead. Thankfully, during construction of DIRFT 2 (the Sainsburys / Tesco / Stobbart terminals) enough space has been left to add another through 'common line' towards the A5 which will allow more flexibility of movements if / when things get busier.

[SED Freightman]

I've sometimes seen Tyne Yard referred to as Tyne S.S. Does anyone know what the S.S stands for?

Thanks

 

The initials S.S. and T.C. after location names (eg. Hoo Jn S.S. and Chatham T.C.) first appeared in the Southern Freight WTT commencing 01/05/1984, I have always understood them to mean Section Siding and Terminal Complex although the abbreviations are not explained in the WTT preamble.  The only Sorting Sidings I am aware of on the South Eastern were at Herne Hill, but they closed many years ago.

[SED Freightman]

I am surprised that Margam is still in the top 10, such a shadow is it of it's former self, and a little surprised that Dolland's Moor doesn't get a mention.

 

 

Eurotunnel figures for 2017 show 2,012 freight trains passed through the Tunnel, which equates to approx. 6 per day, that will sadly be why Dollands Moor does not feature.

[big jim]

The initials S.S. and T.C. after location names (eg. Hoo Jn S.S. and Chatham T.C.) first appeared in the Southern Freight WTT commencing 01/05/1984, I have always understood them to mean Section Siding and Terminal Complex although the abbreviations are not explained in the WTT preamble. The only Sorting Sidings I am aware of on the South Eastern were at Herne Hill, but they closed many years ago.

The box at the north end of Basford hall is S.S North which is ‘sorting sidings’

 

I took a road learner there before I left Colas for him to have a look at some of the moves one of which displays an ‘E’ in the stencil indicator which the signaller questioned us on, asking me what I thought it meant, “East” was what I thought but he corrected me and explained it was the “Electric line” and it was from prior to the whole yard being electrified it was the only electrified line leading toward crewe station/south shed

[Fat Controller]

Eurotunnel figures for 2017 show 2,012 freight trains passed through the Tunnel, which equates to approx. 6 per day, that will sadly be why Dollands Moor does not feature.

Dolland's Moor was never intended to be a marshalling facility, but somewhere where frontier controls could be carried out, checks on stock take place, and trains held until a path was available. The only time vehicles would be shunted is to cut out cripples. As such, it is more akin to what are called 'Staging Sidings' elsewhere.

[brianusa]

No problem with Tavistock Junction, then?  

Brian

[Mike Storey]

The initials S.S. and T.C. after location names (eg. Hoo Jn S.S. and Chatham T.C.) first appeared in the Southern Freight WTT commencing 01/05/1984, I have always understood them to mean Section Siding and Terminal Complex although the abbreviations are not explained in the WTT preamble.  The only Sorting Sidings I am aware of on the South Eastern were at Herne Hill, but they closed many years ago.

 

That's interesting. If Hoo did anything, it was to sort wagons into trip workings, which says Sorting Sidings to me!

 

As for Chatham, Terminal Complex in 1984 would be an exshtraordinary exaggerashion shurely? Even the Dockyard only had a few trial trips by then. Chatham basically stored a few cripples and the stores trains for the depot. Strange. But then anything in the WTT SED of those times would not surprise me, with Beckenham slowly closing down and Waterloo Freight imagining it knew all there was to know! Maybe that was a mis-print for Chatham TD?

 

However, I acknowledge you know far more about these things than I will ever know, so I stand to be correkted.

[The Johnster]

Eurotunnel figures for 2017 show 2,012 freight trains passed through the Tunnel, which equates to approx. 6 per day, that will sadly be why Dollands Moor does not feature.

 

I have been seduced by it's higher profile, then, but don't some trains start from and terminate at Dollands to and from destinations within the UK!  This is a long way from my field of expertise, but I would imagine that the Channel Tunnel (I make the distinction because where I live 'the tunnel' has always meant the Severn Tunnel) is operating close to capacity to pay it's way, and as much freight as can possibly be shoehorned in between the Shuttles and Eurostars is being handled.  

[The Johnster]

That's interesting. If Hoo did anything, it was to sort wagons into trip workings, which says Sorting Sidings to me!

 

As for Chatham, Terminal Complex in 1984 would be an exshtraordinary exaggerashion shurely? Even the Dockyard only had a few trial trips by then. Chatham basically stored a few cripples and the stores trains for the depot. Strange. But then anything in the WTT SED of those times would not surprise me, with Beckenham slowly closing down and Waterloo Freight imagining it knew all there was to know! Maybe that was a mis-print for Chatham TD?

 

However, I acknowledge you know far more about these things than I will ever know, so I stand to be correkted.

IIRC in my own time as a Canton freight guard in the 70s, Margam Sorting Sidings, as opposed to the sorting sidings in the hump yard, was referred to a Margam S.S, in WTT, duty sheets, and so on.  The Margam complex was huge in those days, running from east to west as Reception, Hump sorting sidings, Margam S.S sorting sidings, and continuing to Knuckle Yard, the various steelworks areas and Abbey sidings.  There was also Margam Moors, a series of double ended loop sidings on the up side of the SWML opposite the diesel deopt; the whole thing was about 4 miles long.

 

I do not know what the initials T.C stand for; it was nota term used in those days on the WR.  There was little difference in purpose between marshalling sidings and sorting sidings; they were both areas of sidings used for breaking down and re-making up trains.  

[Fat Controller]

TC- Traffic Centre?

[Mike Storey]

I have been seduced by it's higher profile, then, but don't some trains start from and terminate at Dollands to and from destinations within the UK!  This is a long way from my field of expertise, but I would imagine that the Channel Tunnel (I make the distinction because where I live 'the tunnel' has always meant the Severn Tunnel) is operating close to capacity to pay it's way, and as much freight as can possibly be shoehorned in between the Shuttles and Eurostars is being handled.  

 

I am not aware of any services terminating at Dollands Moor, but I may be out of date.

 

The current practical limit on the number of paths was 20 trains per hour each way (at 140 kph ave, with variations up to 160kph and down to 120kph). Average current usage uses barely 65% of that.

 

Theoretically, enhanced operations could achieve 24 trains per hour, but I am not sure how that affects contingency time and what the current state of electric current draw (and the cessation of the power draw upgrades of Shuttle locos - only part of the fleet has been done so far).

 

If full, moving block signalling was installed, the theoretical capacity could rise to 30 tph, but capacity is just as limited by capacity/clearances at each terminal and power supply.

 

Nonetheless, there is ample capacity for more trains at the moment, the number of through freight trains having been way below the original forecasts.

[Fat Controller]

I am not aware of any services terminating at Dollands Moor, but I may be out of date.

 

The current practical limit on the number of paths was 20 trains per hour each way (at 140 kph ave, with variations up to 160kph and down to 120kph). Average current usage uses barely 65% of that.

 

Theoretically, enhanced operations could achieve 24 trains per hour, but I am not sure how that affects contingency time and what the current state of electric current draw (and the cessation of the power draw upgrades of Shuttle locos - only part of the fleet has been done so far).

 

If full, moving block signalling was installed, the theoretical capacity could rise to 30 tph, but capacity is just as limited by capacity/clearances at each terminal and power supply.

 

Nonetheless, there is ample capacity for more trains at the moment, the number of through freight trains having been way below the original forecasts.

Trains 'start' and 'finish' at Dolland's Moor simply as a means of entering them on TOPS; the only trains that run no further are engineering workings, track-recording trains and so on. From close observation, there are plenty of overnight paths available, as Eurotunnel's own trains only take about five paths per hour (and run at 120 kph on most nights.)

Freight traffic was much heavier in the early days, sometimes up to 20 trains per day per direction, though a great deal has gone. Part of this is  has been due to the 'stowaway' problem, not just in the Calais area, but on traffic originating as far afield as Italy, leading both to long delays, and also to users having to throw away whole container-loads due to contamination. Other traffic has gone because of the virtual elimination of wagon-load operation in the UK and on the mainland. In other cases, the traffic has disappeared because of structural changes. Rover were good for at least a daily train, with FIAT using some of the capacity in the opposite direction; the decline in Ford's activity in the UK means the Blue Train runs on four days a week, whereas it once had two timetabled workings per day, per direction (and often extra workings when traffic demanded it); IMERYS stopped sending a weekly train to Italy, sourcing the clay elsewhere.

[The Stationmaster]

Acton still seems to be incredibly busy?

 

Yes - I'm not sure about 'incredibly busy' but it is definitely pretty busy and it still functions as a marshalling yard for revenue earning traffic with stone trains being split for various destinations and trains of return empties being formed there from what almost amount to trip working (albeit trips running to/from only one location).  It/the adjacent goods through lines are also used for recessing trains due to various restrictions on freight movements during the passenger peaks in some parts of the London suburban area.

[The Johnster]

I have learned a good bit about Dollands Moor and the Channel Tunnel's freight operations from this thread.  i'd have to say that I was already under the impression that through traffic of any sort had not met original expectations; I seem to recall a proposal for overnight sleeper trains to faraway places with strange sounding names that never came to fruition as well.  But I thought that the intermodal and container traffic was doing better than these figures suggest.

 

The stowaway problem is another issue; I believe some of these people are desperate enough to 'ride the rods' or cling to the outside of the trains, but it is a problem with the surface traffic as well.  This is something that isn't going to go away unless the security and economic conditions improve in the places the stowaway come from, unlikely in any future I can foresee.

[SED Freightman]

 

However, I acknowledge you know far more about these things than I will ever know, so I stand to be correkted.

 

I would not claim to be any sort of expert, however over the years I have had the benefit of being able to listen to many knowledgable railway colleagues, a number of whom had probably forgotten more than I am ever likely to know.

 

Regarding the S.S. & T.C. designations, the grey cells are stirring and I now think they, along with N.Y. (Network Yard), related to the designation of locations used by the Speedlink Network and probably originated above Regional Level at 222 Marylebone Road.  It would appear that the SR Timetable people were keen (or instructed) to show the designations against the appropriate freight locations. whereas other Regions perhaps did not, particularly if there were already locations with Sorting Sidings (already shewn as S.S. eg. at Crewe and Margam as pointed out by Big Jim and The Johnster).  From what I remember, there were a series of main Network Yards (N.Y.) interconnected by trunk services, these were connected to locations designated as Section Sidings (S.S.) which marshalled blocks of wagons preformed into rakes (sections) to or from the eventual destination.  The Section Siding locations sent trips to / from private terminals or small locations designated as Terminal Complexes which were either freight terminals themselves or also served local sidings with a shunting or trip loco.  Whilst the SR Freight timetables did not provide an explanation for the abbreviations, the Railtrack West Coast Zone Timetable Section CU, commencing 25/09/1994, quotes NY = Network Yard, SS = Sorting Siding and TC = Terminal Complex.  I guess they ignored the Section Siding designation as it clashed with existing sorting siding entries such as Basford Hall S.S.M. and Basford Hall S.S.N. although Carlisle N.Y, Garston (Speke) T.C. and Northampton T.C. do appear in the tables.

 

The full list of SR locations designated as N.Y, S.S. & T.C. which appeared in the Freight WTT commencing 14/05/1984 is listed below, the absence of Dover Town, Hither Green and Woking is odd, particularly as Dover had several services feeding into the trunk network.

Ashford Yard T.C.

Basingstoke S.S. Down Yd

Battersea Yard T.C.

Brighton S.S.

Chatham T.C.

Eastleigh East N.Y.

Fratton S.S.

Hamworthy T.C.

Hoo Jn S.S.

Horsham T.C.

Norwood Down S.S.

Southampton Down T.C.

Southampton Up T.C.

Tonbridge S.S.

Salisbury S.S.

Wimbledon T.C.

[woodenhead]

The track in Basford hall I s shocking though, it must be bad if they have a dedicated retailing team based there!

 

 

What do they retail, it can't be Peco as the sleepers are too close so it must be C&L 

[SED Freightman]

I have learned a good bit about Dollands Moor and the Channel Tunnel's freight operations from this thread.  i'd have to say that I was already under the impression that through traffic of any sort had not met original expectations; I seem to recall a proposal for overnight sleeper trains to faraway places with strange sounding names that never came to fruition as well.  But I thought that the intermodal and container traffic was doing better than these figures suggest.

Besides all the issues affecting through railfreight traffic pointed out by the Fat Controller, there was also the issue of regular strikes by SNCF staff which killed off a lot of the services that had been successfully started by Railfreight Distribution.  The Channel Tunnel itself has been very successful in attracting wagonload freight, but unfortunately they run on rubber tyres and travel on the freight shuttles, 1,637,280 of them last year - an average of just under 5,000 per day.  Sadly, if only a fraction of this transferred to through railfreight services there would be total chaos as the UK no longer has anywhere near sufficient facilities to deal with significant volumes of wagonload traffic, nor the terminals and private sidings to load and unload it.

[E3109]

The box at the north end of Basford hall is S.S North which is ‘sorting sidings’

I took a road learner there before I left Colas for him to have a look at some of the moves one of which displays an ‘E’ in the stencil indicator which the signaller questioned us on, asking me what I thought it meant, “East” was what I thought but he corrected me and explained it was the “Electric line” and it was from prior to the whole yard being electrified it was the only electrified line leading toward crewe station/south shed

Interesting Jim, learned summat so cheers for that.

Took me years to realise that M.O. stands for 'Middle Order', didn't have a clue on that and I'm based there!

[Mike Storey]

Besides all the issues affecting through railfreight traffic pointed out by the Fat Controller, there was also the issue of regular strikes by SNCF staff which killed off a lot of the services that had been successfully started by Railfreight Distribution.  The Channel Tunnel itself has been very successful in attracting wagonload freight, but unfortunately they run on rubber tyres and travel on the freight shuttles, 1,637,280 of them last year - an average of just under 5,000 per day.  Sadly, if only a fraction of this transferred to through railfreight services there would be total chaos as the UK no longer has anywhere near sufficient facilities to deal with significant volumes of wagonload traffic, nor the terminals and private sidings to load and unload it.

 

All true, although there is spare capacity at Dagenham of course, now, which has not attracted any extra business as yet.

 

But another key factor has been the failure of SNCF to find decent paths for through transits, giving some particularly poor end to end timings, and forced crew changes, over the years. More recently, track access charges, by the dreaded RFF, and so far continuing since the re-merger, have been exorbitant. 

 

PS - since posting, I have just read in RT Europe, that SNCF Reseau are now going to freeze track access charges for freight in 2019, following strong representations by open access operators, after years of real increases. French govt will make up the difference that SNCF will lose from the planned inflation-plus increase. Perhaps this will start to make through rail traffic a little more competitive again.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Mike Storey

[The Stationmaster]

IIRC in my own time as a Canton freight guard in the 70s, Margam Sorting Sidings, as opposed to the sorting sidings in the hump yard, was referred to a Margam S.S, in WTT, duty sheets, and so on.  The Margam complex was huge in those days, running from east to west as Reception, Hump sorting sidings, Margam S.S sorting sidings, and continuing to Knuckle Yard, the various steelworks areas and Abbey sidings.  There was also Margam Moors, a series of double ended loop sidings on the up side of the SWML opposite the diesel deopt; the whole thing was about 4 miles long.

 

I do not know what the initials T.C stand for; it was nota term used in those days on the WR.  There was little difference in purpose between marshalling sidings and sorting sidings; they were both areas of sidings used for breaking down and re-making up trains.  

 

Margam Sorting Sidings. (abbreviated as Margam SS) was a separate yard from the hump yard and was used for different traffic but the name was basically no more than something to distinguish it from the hump yard ('Margam Yard') and the Knuckle Yard.  Margam Moors was in later years basically for recessing and occasionally reversing trains and in that resect took over  completely from Margam Sidings which were further west on the Up side.  The most westerly sidings on the Down side were Grange with the Knuckle Yard and Abbey Sidings lying next to each other east of the Grange.  Even into the early 1970s most of those yards still survived but Abbey Sidings and the Grange were basically to deal with works traffic.

[SED Freightman]

All true, although there is spare capacity at Dagenham of course, now, which has not attracted any extra business as yet.

 

 

Spare capacity at Dagenham ?  Assuming you mean the terminal within the Ford estate, there will be no spare capacity for third party use unless the highly unionised Ford labour have relinquished their iron grip on site activities.

[Mike Storey]

Spare capacity at Dagenham ?  Assuming you mean the terminal within the Ford estate, there will be no spare capacity for third party use unless the highly unionised Ford labour have relinquished their iron grip on site activities.

 

Sorry, I meant and should have written Barking, as in mad.

[Fat Controller]

Sorry, I meant and should have written Barking, as in mad.

A large part of Barking seems to be a warehouse operated by Eddie Stobart.

[SED Freightman]

Sorry, I meant and should have written Barking, as in mad.

 

Ah yes, the former Ripple Lane FLT seems to still see a little activity and presumably has plenty of spare capacity, while on the Down Side the rail connected warehouse once rented by Stora Enso and adjacent sidings once used by ASW do not appear to be in use and Eddie Stobart appears to occupy the former Hays Distribution site which once had its own small container terminal.  Most of the rail locked former Ripple Lane Yard area would seem to present a significant development opportunity for Network Rail if the Down Line could be slued to the south.