ngaugenut Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I wonder if anyone here can help me with a problem I have with a Duchess of Montrose Hornby Dublo that has been handed down to me through the family. On initial power up she was dead. So after a strip down, clean and re-oil she now runs reasonably well. The problem with the loco is after running for 5 mins or so she slows up and stops. Not an abrupt stop but slows down first. I have taken her apart again and checked for free movement etc but have found nothing wrong. I believe she is a conversion to 2 rail but cannot confirm this yet. I have noticed she needs a fair amount of current to run. Any ideas would be appreciated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted October 14, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) I wonder if anyone here can help me with a problem I have with a Duchess of Montrose Hornby Dublo that has been handed down to me through the family. On initial power up she was dead. So after a strip down, clean and re-oil she now runs reasonably well. The problem with the loco is after running for 5 mins or so she slows up and stops. Not an abrupt stop but slows down first. I have taken her apart again and checked for free movement etc but have found nothing wrong. I believe she is a conversion to 2 rail but cannot confirm this yet. I have noticed she needs a fair amount of current to run. Any ideas would be appreciated. Had same problem a few years back when I ran them on an exhibition layout - IIRC weak magnet is the issue. Back then I had access to a local shop that did re-mags (The model shop in Poole, Dorset), however, several websites have the tip these days of adding new small magnets either side of the existing magnet. Hope this helps. Edited October 14, 2018 by john new Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 High current draw, especially if the motor runs warm, is an almost sure sign of a weak magnet, (There are other causes such as a shorted turn in the armature.) In the absence of a re-mag there is the alternative of a neodymium magnet. A full size one is really too strong and shows this by interfering with the free movement of the drawbar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Your problem is that after all those years,the magnet has lost magnetism & will possibly need a rewound armature.You would probably be better off sending it away for repair if you havn`t got a remagnetiser as the magnet & armature have to magnetised as an assembly.No connection here,he has done a couple of repairs for me in the past. http://www.scalespeed.co.uk/ Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyC Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 I note you say the loco was stripped and cleaned. If you dismantled the motor then it will definitely need remagnetised as the magnet will lose strength if it or the pole pieces are removed. As Sagaguy says these motors need to be remagnetised with the motor assembled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 If you really get serious about repairing locos especially Hornby dublo,this is a worthwhile purchase,a Ronald Dodd remagnitiser,i have one & it is a very effective piece of kit,i do run a Hornby Dublo 3 rail layout. Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted October 15, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 15, 2018 If you really get serious about repairing locos especially Hornby dublo,this is a worthwhile purchase,a Ronald Dodd remagnitiser,i have one & it is a very effective piece of kit,i do run a Hornby Dublo 3 rail layout. unnamed.jpg Ray Could you add a link please of where to get one from. Don't need one now but if I start showing my H-Dublo again in the future might buy if it is affordable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Did you get my PM? Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Could you add a link please of where to get one from. Don't need one now but if I start showing my H-Dublo again in the future might buy if it is affordable. Ron advertises these on Ebay on a regular basis for about £148 which includes a multi meter, compass etc. These are suitable most trains, Scalextric etc. I use mine these days for Tri-ang TT motors. You will find it is better for doing Dublo EMU ringfields as opposed to using Neo's. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 The old H/D metal bodied locos did tend to lose speed after a while as they warmed up and with a tired magnet would stopcompletely, however this is worse if the motor bearings are not adjusted right and especially if the ball bearings inside the brass bearings are missing. If the bearing is adjusted right in it is a sign one ball bearing is missing. They need a tiny bit of end float, (and no I haven't measured it.) The big Super Neo magnets are probably too strong but I have jammed several small super neo ring magnets and steel packing pieces into H/D (and X04) motors with good results. These are about £1 for 10 inc post and packing from China! That said some of my H/D magnets are originals and I have never remagnetised them despite owning them for 40 odd years. I think the Ring "Ringfield" magnet was introduced to improve the loss of magnetism issues. Useless info, but I have a 2-6-4 T chassis fitted with a Co Co ring magnet which runs very well. The Co Co magnet is larger than the other ring fields. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 This youtube video explains it well, Which 2-6-4 was that?,no Dublo 2-6-4 had a ringfield magnet,always a vertical motor. Ray. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) This youtube video explains it well, Which 2-6-4 was that?,no Dublo 2-6-4 had a ringfield magnet,always a vertical motor. Ray. Ray, he did say it was a Co-Co magnet so it will be a home made job. I had heard of at least one other person doing this modification but never saw the result or if it actually worked but obviously this one did. Not something I would have attempted as I did not like the Ringfields, they were more prone to losing their magnetism more than any other. Tri-ang very rarely, Dublo Alnico's a few times, Dublo Ringfields often. Garry Edited October 15, 2018 by Golden Fleece 30 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 That's got me intrigued, I'd love to see that. Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Ray, he did say it was a Co-Co magnet so it will be a home made job. I had heard of at least one other person doing this modification but never saw the result or if it actually worked but obviously this one did. Not something I would have attempted as I did not like the Ringfields, they were more prone to losing their magnetism more than any other. Tri-ang very rarely, Dublo Alnico's a few times, Dublo Ringfields often. Garry 30 odd years ago I had a H/D 2-6-4T chassis and a Triang std 3 2-6-2T body Even with the back hacked off the chassis was too long at the magnet to fit the 3MT cab/ bunker. I had a Co Co magnet was lying around as well as a vertical armature so I tried the magnet over the armature and it fitted. I filed a large horizontal slot outwards from the armature hole in the chassis to take the magnet and wangled the magnet over the armature and into position. It was an almighty fiddle but it ran very nicely so I re wheeled it and it served mainly as a station pilot for several years. It still runs well but is outclassed by Bachmann 3MT and replaced on pilot duties by a Grafar 94XX. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 30 odd years ago I had a H/D 2-6-4T chassis and a Triang std 3 2-6-2T body Even with the back hacked off the chassis was too long at the magnet to fit the 3MT cab/ bunker. I had a Co Co magnet was lying around as well as a vertical armature so I tried the magnet over the armature and it fitted. I filed a large horizontal slot outwards from the armature hole in the chassis to take the magnet and wangled the magnet over the armature and into position. It was an almighty fiddle but it ran very nicely so I re wheeled it and it served mainly as a station pilot for several years. It still runs well but is outclassed by Bachmann 3MT and replaced on pilot duties by a Grafar 94XX. This is my Tri-ang 3MT. It is fitted with the 0-6-2 chassis and the 2-6-4 valve gear. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 30 odd years ago I had a H/D 2-6-4T chassis and a Triang std 3 2-6-2T body Even with the back hacked off the chassis was too long at the magnet to fit the 3MT cab/ bunker. I had a Co Co magnet was lying around as well as a vertical armature so I tried the magnet over the armature and it fitted. I filed a large horizontal slot outwards from the armature hole in the chassis to take the magnet and wangled the magnet over the armature and into position. It was an almighty fiddle but it ran very nicely so I re wheeled it and it served mainly as a station pilot for several years. It still runs well but is outclassed by Bachmann 3MT and replaced on pilot duties by a Grafar 94XX. This is my Tri-ang 3MT. It is fitted with the 0-6-2 chassis and the 2-6-4 valve gear. Garry 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ngaugenut Posted October 16, 2018 Author Share Posted October 16, 2018 This youtube video explains it well, Which 2-6-4 was that?,no Dublo 2-6-4 had a ringfield magnet,always a vertical motor. Ray. Video was excellent, explained an awful lot. Thank you. This is a route I may go. I am grateful to all that have helped on this post. When I read some of the replies it was obvious it was magnet issues. I was beginning to think about replacing them with newer replacements as I have over 40 old locos dating from the 50s onwards and they will all probably have magnet issues. Thank you to everyone who has helped me with this problem. I would never have guessed it would be magnets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Fleece 30 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Video was excellent, explained an awful lot. Thank you. This is a route I may go. I am grateful to all that have helped on this post. When I read some of the replies it was obvious it was magnet issues. I was beginning to think about replacing them with newer replacements as I have over 40 old locos dating from the 50s onwards and they will all probably have magnet issues. Thank you to everyone who has helped me with this problem. I would never have guessed it would be magnets. A word of warning from my own personal issue with modern magnets "Neos" I did but a few to replace old Dublo ones but had one chip and one completely crack down its centre (first 3 photos). Having read about other issues of increased bearing wear and the coating coming off (not my loco) I decided to by a magnetiser. Changing back to the old magnets and remagging them was the best thing I did. As someone else mentioned I have a lot of old originals that are still as good today as they were when made and never touched the magnets so most locos you have will probably be okay. This is my view, some swear by Neos so it is a personal choice. If you do go down the Neos they can pull wagons from an adjoining track and the EMU is restricted so someone is offering to alter their Neo magnets for that loco. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdrider Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I have a triang Hornby Flying Scotsman which was in storage for at least a couple of decades. When tried recently it ran, although not particularly fast, but was barely able to pull a couple of coaches. I cleaned it up a bit but there was little improvement so I fitted an N52 super neo magnet. It has done little to improve the running speed but the loco will now pull at least 6 Hornby dublo super detail coaches. I'm a little puzzled that it has not increased the speed at all but has definitely improved the pulling power. I remember that it ran pretty fast when I was a teenager. I also have a Wrenn A4 and an N2 which are in a worse state than the Scotsman. They don't have the power to move their own weight. I was considering fitting super neo magnets to these as well but given the experience of the Scotsman, I'm wondering if the improvement may not be sufficient to allow them to haul anything at a reasonable speed. I'm really looking for a cheap fix so I didn't want to get into the whole issue of remagnetizing. Any advice would be welcome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 A word of warning from my own personal issue with modern magnets "Neos" I did but a few to replace old Dublo ones but had one chip and one completely crack down its centre (first 3 photos). Having read about other issues of increased bearing wear and the coating coming off (not my loco) I decided to by a magnetiser. Changing back to the old magnets and remagging them was the best thing I did. As someone else mentioned I have a lot of old originals that are still as good today as they were when made and never touched the magnets so most locos you have will probably be okay. This is my view, some swear by Neos so it is a personal choice. If you do go down the Neos they can pull wagons from an adjoining track and the EMU is restricted so someone is offering to alter their Neo magnets for that loco. Garry First thing I would do is take that thing off the back of the chassis! They all run better without it. It was an attempt to better the shunting speed I believe. Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 This is my Tri-ang 3MT. It is fitted with the 0-6-2 chassis and the 2-6-4 valve gear. Garry That is excellent! Much smarter than mine which is scruffy unlined black I have a triang Hornby Flying Scotsman which was in storage for at least a couple of decades. When tried recently it ran, although not particularly fast, but was barely able to pull a couple of coaches. I cleaned it up a bit but there was little improvement so I fitted an N52 super neo magnet. It has done little to improve the running speed but the loco will now pull at least 6 Hornby dublo super detail coaches. I'm a little puzzled that it has not increased the speed at all but has definitely improved the pulling power. I remember that it ran pretty fast when I was a teenager. I also have a Wrenn A4 and an N2 which are in a worse state than the Scotsman. They don't have the power to move their own weight. I was considering fitting super neo magnets to these as well but given the experience of the Scotsman, I'm wondering if the improvement may not be sufficient to allow them to haul anything at a reasonable speed. I'm really looking for a cheap fix so I didn't want to get into the whole issue of remagnetizing. Any advice would be welcome. I reckon the Super Neo is masking a duff armature. The X04 will often run at reduced speed when it has thrown an armature winding. I use cheap super Neos off Ebay about £1.35 including postage from China for 10, with steel packing pieces I find 2 or 3 equal or exceed the strength of a good X04 magnet. There are various shapes and sizes, and they vary even within a batch but they are cheap. They do come on the proverbial slow boat from China. Another source is CD drives the "Reading head" for want of a better description has two or more small but very strong super neos. I use super at buffer stops were the baseboard has sagged so they attract the last coach's coupling hook and stop the whole rake rolling out onto the main line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I used a couple of Neo magnets but dumped them.I replaced the Neos with original Alnico magnets & bought a remagnitiser.Some times,the armatures age & slow down,ringfield motors are prone to this..I think my 50 year old Barnstaple may be due for this treatment by replacing the armature. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Regretably there really isn't a cheap fix; it's either a remag or a neo. My solution of 2 neodymium cubes padded out with a couple of steel washers is cheap enough. 6mm cube magnets are cheap on eBay as are washers if you don't have them already. I've had some success with two of the cubes stuck on the magnet but there isn't always room. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cessna152towser Posted October 24, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 24, 2018 My original Hornby-Dublo 2-6-4 tank, from my first 00 electric train set in 1958 no longer ran and I sent it away for overhaul. Cost £27 (far more than the original train set) but came back running like new, and indeed it had a run on my layout earlier today, coping with a full brake and three long wheelbase tinplate vans no bother at all. Not sure if the forum allows me to advertise the detrails of the repairer who worked wonders, but PM me if you want details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagaguy Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I don`t think there is any problem naming the supplier,I normally manage to repair my own locos but sometimes,just sometimes,it needs a fresh look.Scalespeed has been my preferred repair man since he repaired a basket case Dublo EMU. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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