Ebbw Vale Ore Trains 42/52XX and 9F Allocations

[robmcg]

Well, Aberbeeg to Ebbw Vale varied between 1-in-52 and 1-in-81 approx from the moment trains left Aberbeeg on 1-in-68 and trains could be heard for a long time after they left westward or up the valley, great atmosphere for a picture or two. 

 

Google maps show the valley today to be full of trees but I wonder if it was always so? 

 

I have just received John Hodge's excellent recent book on Railways and Industry in the Western Valley, Aberbeeg to Ebbw Vale and Brynmawr, also his book on Newport to Aberbeeg, so plenty of reading to be had.  Also Ian Sixsmith's book The 2-8-0 Tank Papers,   all these books full of photos, no excuses for me now!

[br2975]

I occasionally drive up the Western Valley, parallel to the railway up through Abercarn, Newbridge, Llanhilleth, Aberbeeg and then turning left to reach Cwm and Ebbw Vale.

.

The growth of trees in recent years has become increasingly apparent, and from Aberbeeg to Cwm is more akin to a forestry drive.

.

The site of Marine Colliery is still a flat, wasteland.

.

Sadly, I never knew the line in steam days, so my memories are restricted to 'six-eighters' growling up the Ebbw Vale.

.

Brian R

[The Johnster]

AFAIK the stretch between Aberbeeg and Cwm has always been somewhat rural, heavily wooded, and very attractive compared to the desolation either side of it, especially at this time of year.  All the valleys looked like this before the industrial revolution raped the fair country.  The coal seams are very deep underground here and it was easier to sink pits at Cwm or Six Bells in the next valley, which were connected underground, or Llanhilleth the other side of Aberbeeg.  The valley here is steep and narrow, broadening out a bit at Cwm and Aberbeeg to allow collieries and engine sheds to occupy the space.  The similar narrowness of other valleys did not prevent pits being sunk and villages being built, clinging precariously to the mountain side, but it didn't happen here, probably because the big pits at Six Bells and Cwm were already tapping in to the seams down there before anyone thought of it!  Coal for the early needs of the ironworks and foundries at the head of the valleys was cropped locally where it came to the surface; Big Pit at Blaenavon started out like this but became a proper deep mine when the easy coal at the surface ran out.

 

The South Wales coalfield is basically a bowl, a basin, formation of geological strata, a syncline, with the Coal Measures, underlaid by thick limestone seams and overlaid, in face mixed, with the brown Pennant Sandstone; the whole being the rocks of the Carboniferous Era.  The 'Old Red Sandstone' of the previous Devonian Era underlies the whole lot, and is the rock on which Cardiff is mostly built and which forms the bigger mountains of the Brecon Beacons; it more or less surrounds the coalfield.  

 

So the deepest parts of the coal seams are in the central part of the coalfield, where, to make life easier for Victorian mine shaft sinkers, there is an anticline, a dome formation called the Pontypridd Anticline, which pushes them closer to the surface.  So, the coal outcrops at the edges of the field, which is where the iron and limestone are found as well, the iron being found at the junction of the limestone and coal measures.  In the 1700s, the area was still heavily wooded and contained fast flowing streams that could be harnessed for power via waterwheels, so the ironworks sprang up around the edges, especially the northern rim but elsewhere as well.  The coal was needed for coking, and the wood for the ovens to coke it, because the ironworks' furnaces are fired with coke, as are those of the later steelworks' that came after them.  

 

The turn of the 20th century saw the start of a move of steelmaking from the northern rim to the Bristol Channel ports, because of the cost and difficulty of hauling heavy iron ore trains up the valley gradients at a time when the market demanded that they expand production, and a consequent development of coking plants further south; Bedwas, Nantgarw, Beddau.  Ebbw Vale was the last of the big inland works, and the iron ore trains were spectacular even in diesel days; the big GW tanks and 9F's did their best to blow holes in the sky...

 

The local resources, except for the limestone, ran out quite quickly and by the mid 1800s it was becoming necessary to import iron ore.  The demand for coal was increasing exponentially and it became profitable, very, to sink deep mines to get at it, so industrial activity moved towards the centre of the coalfield.  Associated with this was a development of iron foundries and heavy engineering; Brown Lenox at Pontypridd supplied anchor chains for the Cunard Liners for instance.  Limestone is still worked at the edges of the field, and coal mining has moved back towards it, with big opencast working where the coal is close to the surface on the northern rim; the strata dip away much more steeply on the southern edge.

[robmcg]

Thanks for those interesting facts The Johnster, much appreciated.

 

I am slowly but surely wending my way towards more pics of Ebbw Vale ore trains, and have chosen 5202 a Newport and Aberbeeg engine from the mid-50s to 1963 and not withdrawn until late 1965, for this evocative pic of the engine in ex-Swindon condition at some time after 1957.

 

 

edit;  and of course our late-series 9Fs which hauled ore and coal, 92249 and 92233 both of which spent time at 86A

 

 

 

 

 

Not quite in the Aberbeeg setting but getting there!

Edited November 6, 2018 by robmcg

[robmcg]

Of course all or most of the Ebbw Vale 9Fs had BRIG tenders as well as eventual double chimneys on the older ones, so I have made a few pictures.

 

Also reading the John Hodge book I was astounded to read that King class engines with their 40,000+lb t.e. were tested on the Newport-Aberbegg-Ebbw Vale line with 6003 loaded to 950 tons, 43 loaded 20 ton hoppers, with stopping and starting on the most difficult parts of the line to Aberbeeg, then 12 more loaded hoppers were added there and the 1,350 ton train was banked by 6007 to Ebbw Vale.

 

What a sight that must have been!   

 

WW2 intervened and the ore traffic was handled by the 2-8-0Ts but the GW then BR attached great importance to the traffic thus in 1954 the first 6 or 7 9Fs went there. 

 

So I rather lazily have re-used 2-8-0T pics and others to illustrate 9F 92002 both when new and at work...

 

 

 

probably find errors in proportion or detail here and there but it would have been a great sight, whatever the engines used.

 

cheers

[robmcg]

Not entirely apropos to Ebbw Vale or trains, but in researching the subject I came across any pics of ex-LNWR engines in the Beaufort area and others places on the ex-LNWR lines and wondered if any of these engines might have ventured over the Crumlin viaduct.

 

Or were all LNWR influences gone on the Crumlin viaduct line some time after it was built, given it was intended to give the LNWR access to Welsh coal.? Grouping? 

[The Stationmaster]

Not entirely apropos to Ebbw Vale or trains, but in researching the subject I came across any pics of ex-LNWR engines in the Beaufort area and others places on the ex-LNWR lines and wondered if any of these engines might have ventured over the Crumlin viaduct.

 

Or were all LNWR influences gone on the Crumlin viaduct line some time after it was built, given it was intended to give the LNWR access to Welsh coal.? Grouping? 

 

The LNWR lines came in from the top ends of a couple of valleys whereas Crumlin viaduct was on what the GWR almost regarded as a secondary mainline route between Pontypool Road and Neath.   Duck eights (as modelled by Bachmann) did work excursion to Barry Island in the 1950s but didn't run over Crumlin Viaduct although their route did take the over the very impressive ex Barry railway viaduct at Taffs Well.

[robmcg]

Thankyou Stationmaster, I have to say that apart from NZ playing the Welsh at rugby and being famously defeated by them in 1905 (all eyes on Twickenham tonight) the major feature of Welsh life in my upbringing was reading about mining disasters, and seeing pictures of smoke-wreathed valleys and the Crumlin viaduct.

 

With teenage years I had books by P. B. Whitehouse, two 'Branch Line Album' volumes, which were great favourites of mine and had pictures of places like Brecon, with G2a 0-8-0 49226 crossing the river Usk near Brecon Road in 1952, and 49409 arriving at Pontllanfraith with a Brynmawr to Barry Island special in 1957, but my 'feel' for the area of great industry in Wales and further inland is patchy at best.

 

Modern things like google maps bring no sense at all of the railways of the valleys, places like Aberbeeg have a single line and almost no trace of railways at all, how sad it is!  Talk about an age gone by!

 

I love the Bachmann G2a and they are very cheap  these days, so I shall have to 'create a scene'...   Bachmann even do an 86K G2a 49064.  Also, a Coal Tank and a single composite coach can represent the most civilised transportation imaginable.

 

That is after I have done more 42/52/72XX pictures perhaps.  

[The Stationmaster]

Thankyou Stationmaster, I have to say that apart from NZ playing the Welsh at rugby and being famously defeated by them in 1905 (all eyes on Twickenham tonight) the major feature of Welsh life in my upbringing was reading about mining disasters, and seeing pictures of smoke-wreathed valleys and the Crumlin viaduct.

 

With teenage years I had books by P. B. Whitehouse, two 'Branch Line Album' volumes, which were great favourites of mine and had pictures of places like Brecon, with G2a 0-8-0 49226 crossing the river Usk near Brecon Road in 1952, and 49409 arriving at Pontllanfraith with a Brynmawr to Barry Island special in 1957, but my 'feel' for the area of great industry in Wales and further inland is patchy at best.

 

Modern things like google maps bring no sense at all of the railways of the valleys, places like Aberbeeg have a single line and almost no trace of railways at all, how sad it is!  Talk about an age gone by!

 

I love the Bachmann G2a and they are very cheap  these days, so I shall have to 'create a scene'...   Bachmann even do an 86K G2a 49064.  Also, a Coal Tank and a single composite coach can represent the most civilised transportation imaginable.

 

That is after I have done more 42/52/72XX pictures perhaps.  

 

The railway network in the Valleys, and the various connections between different lines, was incredibly complicated at one time, and indeed well into BR days despite the GWR rationalising a number of the routes it acquired.  Just look at this - and it is only the passenger routes in 1947 -

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=660

[The Johnster]

It's though of as GW territory post-grouping, but the LMS had a huge input in terms of the LNWR Abergavenny-Merthyr route, with branches to Blaenavon (I've used the LNWR spelling) from Brynmawr, Ebbw Vale from Beaufort, and Rhymney from Rhymney Bridge,  This also linked to the LNWR Risca-Tredegar line.  The former Midland had a major presences in the Tawe (Swansea) valley, having bought a controlling interest in the Neath and Brecon and absorbed the Swansea Vale from Coelbren Jc to it's own Swansea terminus, St. Thomas.  The LNW of course entered Swansea from the unlikely South West from the Central Wales line, with a branch to Penclawdd on Gower.  

 

It also kept a loco, a Ramsbottom saddle tank I believe, called 'The Marchioness Of Dumfries' (one of Lady Bute's titles - the Butes more or less owned Cardiff) and a crew for it at the Rhymney Railway's Cardiff East Dock shed to service the small amount of railway they posessed on the dock system to access Tyndall Street Warehouse, which still stands converted to yuppie flats.  it had bailed the Rhymney out after that railway went bust digging Caerphilly tunnel, an opportunist move to get access to Cardiff docks, and effectively owned it, but allowed it to run as an independent concern.

 

So you didn't have to go far in any direction in South Wales to encounter the LMS.  The Pontypool-Neath route that included Crumlin Viaduct featured Stanier 8Fs from Pontypool Road Shed in it's final years.

 

By the time of the grouping, the big companies had acquired major interests in most of the South Wales independents; we have already mentioned the Rhymney, but the GW already had it's stickies well into the Barry and the Rhondda & Swansea Bay; it lent locos to both railways and supplied brand new 45xx tanks in R & SB livery.  It's relationship with the Taff Vale, which got to Cardiff first by some 12 years ahead of the GW sponsored broad gauge South Wales Railway, was always incestuous at a director level; the Taff was promoted by the same Bristol business cabal that promoted the GW and it is no accident that Brunel was the Taff's engineer.  Many of the same names appear on both railways' prospectuses; Guppy comes to mind off hand, as well as Brunel.  

 

South Wales railway history and geography is fascinating, very complex, sometimes bewildering.  For many years it was highly profitable as well, even after 'peak coal' before the Great War; this meant that a lot of it survived in use into the 50s, much of it becoming a bit decrepit by then and hanging on by it's teeth.  Even the Cardiff Railway, promoted too late to the scene and frozen out by the Bristolians behind the Taff Vale, which never made a penny beyond Coryton for the Butes and the Cardiff shipowners who promoted it, survived in to the early 50s up as far as Rhydfelin, only a mile from it's intended junction with the TVR at Treforest.

 

It is remarkable how little 'rationalisation' the GW embarked on when it inherited the mess; it was still turning in good profits and they left it mostly as it was.  They closed the Cardiff to passengers past Coryton, and demolished the Llanbradach Viaduct in the Rhymney Valley, by which the Barry Railway had accessed the Brecon and Merthyr's traffic, but the 1947 map shows how much was still there.  The coal mining was in terminal decline, but it was a slow decline and still a long way from the terminus, and had come from a very high peak.  They days of exponential expansion were over, but there was still plenty of traffic.

 

Anyone who wishes to study capitalism red in toof and clore could do worse than check out this lot!  The Midland's smear campaign of the Swansea Vale in order to get it at a bargain price and secure access to Swansea docks is a textbook example.

Edited November 11, 2018 by The Johnster

[robmcg]

The railway network in the Valleys, and the various connections between different lines, was incredibly complicated at one time, and indeed well into BR days despite the GWR rationalising a number of the routes it acquired.  Just look at this - and it is only the passenger routes in 1947 -

 

http://www.michaelclemensrailways.co.uk/?atk=660

 

Thanks Stationmaster.

 

here is a screen shot from part of your above reference, south Wales 1947 passenger routes which adds some light to my dim understanding.

 

 

and here is one I found on the web, 

 

 

When I combine these maps with pictures in books, of which I have increasing number, a partial comprehension of Welsh railway industry may slowly evolve. 

 

Of course nothing will replace the actuality of steam railways and industry in the valleys.

[robmcg]

It's though of as GW territory post-grouping, but the LMS had a huge input in terms of the LNWR Abergavenny-Merthyr route, with branches to Blaenavon (I've used the LNWR spelling) from Brynmawr, Ebbw Vale from Beaufort, and Rhymney from Rhymney Bridge,  This also linked to the LNWR Risca-Tredegar line.  The former Midland had a major presences in the Tawe (Swansea) valley, having bought a controlling interest in the Neath and Brecon and absorbed the Swansea Vale from Coelbren Jc to it's own Swansea terminus, St. Thomas.  The LNW of course entered Swansea from the unlikely South West from the Central Wales line, with a branch to Penclawdd on Gower.  

 

...

 

So you didn't have to go far in any direction in South Wales to encounter the LMS.  The Pontypool-Neath route that included Crumlin Viaduct featured Stanier 8Fs from Pontypool Road Shed in it's final years.

 

...

Anyone who wishes to study capitalism red in toof and clore could do worse than check out this lot!  The Midland's smear campaign of the Swansea Vale in order to get it at a bargain price and secure access to Swansea docks is a textbook example.

 

 

For me it was the way which the LNWR financed the Crumlin Viaduct in the early 1850s which struck a chord... just be able to control the supply of Welsh coal through Hereford.

[The Stationmaster]

For me it was the way which the LNWR financed the Crumlin Viaduct in the early 1850s which struck a chord... just be able to control the supply of Welsh coal through Hereford.

 

Although it didn't work out like the that.  The LNWR had a a share in the Newport, Abergavenny & Hereford of c.8% and initially worked the N A &HR but relations were not good and the LNWr ceased to work the line in 1854, less than a year after Crumlin Viaduct had been opened. The NA&HR still had problems working its line and amalgamated with the OW&W (which was effectively a GWR client company) to form the West Midland railway in 1860 and the WMR in turn amalgamated with the GWR in 1863.  

 

The LNWR were effectively completely out of the picture on the NA&HR in 1854 and in any case prior to then were actually only working trains on behalf of the NA&HR, the LNWR and su sequently  th LMS never had Running Powers over Crumlin Viaduct although they did have Running Powers over a small distance of the Taff Vale Extension part of the NA& HR (between Pontllanfraith Sirhowy Jcn and Nine MIle Point)

[The Johnster]

The origin of the name of Nine Mile Point is a good bit of trivia; the tramroad that eventually became the railway here ran the distance of 18 miles from Tredegar to Newport, and this was exactly half way, the nine mile point.  So the horses were changed here and stables were built for them, around which a hamlet developed where there was nothing but a wooded valley wilderness previously,  Trees all long gone for pit props now, and new forestry planted, but the area between here and Pontllanfraith is still the original woodland largely, much like the section between Aberbeeg and Cwm in the Ebbw valley,  Nine Mile Point signal box was a railway boundary, and there was a colliery here in later years.

 

There were various proposals to tunnel from here beneath Mynydd Machen to Machen in the lower Rhymney valley, and provide more direct access to Cardiff docks, but the projected costs were too much even for the LNWR!  One of the dissuaders is the difference in height and the severe gradient that would have been needed in the tunnel.

[robmcg]

Although it didn't work out like the that.  The LNWR had a a share in the Newport, Abergavenny & Hereford of c.8% and initially worked the N A &HR but relations were not good and the LNWr ceased to work the line in 1854, less than a year after Crumlin Viaduct had been opened. The NA&HR still had problems working its line and amalgamated with the OW&W (which was effectively a GWR client company) to form the West Midland railway in 1860 and the WMR in turn amalgamated with the GWR in 1863.  

 

The LNWR were effectively completely out of the picture on the NA&HR in 1854 and in any case prior to then were actually only working trains on behalf of the NA&HR, the LNWR and su sequently  th LMS never had Running Powers over Crumlin Viaduct although they did have Running Powers over a small distance of the Taff Vale Extension part of the NA& HR (between Pontllanfraith Sirhowy Jcn and Nine MIle Point)

 

Was there a lot of coal shifted over the ex-LNWR lines along the tops of the valleys through Abergavenny and Hereford or was it more by other routes?  I know it's a rather dumb question with quite probably no simple answer depending on the years, but there were a lot of ex-LNWR 0-8-0s recorded at sheds on visits ('shed bashes' as in a google search) at Abergavenny and Tregedar...   and I do like the idea of a G2a working hard on that line.  I clearly have a lot to learn!

 

Here is BR 49064 which worked from 86K through the 50s..   but the shed is my generic style vaguely GWR and what few pics I have found of Abergavenny and Tregedar look rather less substantial.

 

 

Back to GW tank engines in due course.

[The Johnster]

Many South Wales railways, especially but by no means exclusively in what was then Monmouthshire and is now Gwent, originated as what were locally known as Dramroads, horse drawn tramways.  A network of these, whose ownership and provenance is sometimes problematic, spread across the ''top' from Dowlais to Brynmawr, connecting all of those valleys and forming the basis of the Abergavenny-Merthyr 'Heads of the Valleys' route.  They connected the various ironworks, and the iron ore working and limestone quarries on the heights above, and into the 'Bryn Oer' dramroad that fed the ore and limestone as well as pig iron ingots over the same heights to the Brecon and Monmouth canal at Llangattock wharf; and at the western end of the system to the Merthyr ironworks and the Penydarren tramroad.  Gauges, rails, and wheel profiles varied, sometimes within the same company's dramways.  The extension of this to Govilon wharf near Abergavenny down the precipitous Clydach Gorge was developed into that part of the Merthyr, Tredegar & Abergavenny, later LNWR and the reason that Crewe sent 8-coupled locos to the area.  

 

Much of this Heads of the Valleys line can be cycled as part of National Cycle Route no.8.  I have freewheeled from Brynmawr to Govilon down it with only one turn of the pedals at the top. the gradient being sufficient to permit this even with mountain bike tyres.  

 

Anyway, back to the point; the dramroads were originally developed to transport raw materials to the ironworks and the finished products out, with coal being a very much secondary consideration, only 'cropped' in small workings local to the ironworks for coking to fire the blast furnaces.  This developed from the 1740s onwards, and the coal trade came along about a century later, partly because there were beginning to be railways to transport large quantities of it to the industrial heartlands of England and to the big cities for household use.  A fair bit of coal came out of the Monmouthshire valleys 'over the top' to Abergavenny for onward transmission to the West Midlands via Worcester and the GW and the North West via Shrewsbury and the LNWR, but loads were limited by the adverse gradients needed to access the M,T,& A from the valleys and the gradients at Clydach were enough to restrict the number of empties even a G2a could drag up there.  

 

The easier routes for the inland coal traffic, that could handle larger loads more economically, were down the valleys to yards like Radyr or Rogerstone for marshalling into main line trains.  The London, Portsmouth/Plymouth (for naval use and strategically important, one of the reasons the Government underwrote the Severn Tunnel, which also sped the transit of troop trains to Milford Haven for quelling rebellions in the Southern counties of Ireland), East Midlands, and Yorkshire traffic all went this way, but there was always a healthy amount of coal going 'over the top' via Abergavenny right up until the operating costs and difficulties of the Clydach persuaded BR to pull the plug in 1958;  Such as remained then went via Pontypool Road or Rogerstone.

 

The LNWR Beames 0-8-4 tanks were tried on the Clydach, but were prone to derailments and 'spreading' the track.  Stanier 2-6-2 tanks were were kept at Tredegar shed in LMS days for the Newport passenger traffic.  The red brick shed building survived for many years here, but I believe has gone under a road scheme now.

Edited November 12, 2018 by The Johnster

[robmcg]

Much appreciated, that perspective on the railways of the area.  Thanks again 'The Johnster'.

 

I want to buy another G2a but cannot decide between pristine and weathered. Ah, the dilemmas!  The obvious answer being 'buy both', but I'd some cash left over for the delectable items to come from Hornby and Bachmann.

[The Johnster]

If it's any help, the general condition of G2as in service in South Wales during the BR period was pretty much the same as everything else, deplorable.  They did appear on passenger work, though, for which RTR LMS non-gangwayed stock is suitable.  

 

Swansea Paxton Street shed had some as well, for work on the Central Wales line.

[DCB]

According to Loco Profile 33 'B.R. Class 9 2-10-0', the problem was with the throttle. If an engine started to slip when working hard at slow speeds, it could be very difficult, at times almost impossible, to shut the throttle. Even when being worked more easily, the throttle could be difficult to move. Throttles were modified to have a smaller opening of the main valve, which helped with the problem, without having much effect on high power outputs.

I read somewhere probably the E.S.Cox book that they fitted a standard 4 regulator to the 9Fs to cure the violent slipping, the slipping was on the

Ebbw Vale trains to which the first 8 9Fs 92000-92007 were allocated. The first few 9Fs which had a heavy general overhaul were fitted with double

chimneys and they were then allocated away initially to the Somerset and Dorset for passenger work.

[The Stationmaster]

I read somewhere probably the E.S.Cox book that they fitted a standard 4 regulator to the 9Fs to cure the violent slipping, the slipping was on the

Ebbw Vale trains to which the first 8 9Fs 92000-92007 were allocated. The first few 9Fs which had a heavy general overhaul were fitted with double

chimneys and they were then allocated away initially to the Somerset and Dorset for passenger work.

 

As I posted previously the problem the 9Fs suffered on the Ebbw Vale branch was not climbing up the valley but coming back down, and had nothing to do with slipping but was simply (or not so simply) an inability to close the regulator resulting in runaways.  I doubt that Joe field, the Loco Inspector sent to investigate the problem would have told various of us in later years something different from what was actually happening and different from what the real, very serious, problem was.

 

Ebbw Junction still had three of its original allocation of 9Fs in 1963, of the other 5 one was at Cardiff, another at Tyseley and three at Bristol.   Only three of them ever spent any time allocated to Bath Green Park and of those two were only there for a few months according to the BR Database website. 

[The Johnster]

S & D 9F's were never permanently allocated, they were 'borrowed' for the summer months to work the heavy 'Pine's' to time without double heading and came back to their parent sheds for the winter.  They were unsuitable for winter passenger use as they were not fitted with steam heating equipment.  'Evening Star' was used in this way when the loco was allocated to Canton and the first job on it's return would be to clean it, as locos returned from Green Park were always filthy; the shed hadn't the staff to clean them.

 

The throttle issue might be described as teething troubles on a new design in 1954, but it is surprising and alarming that locos could be put into service like that.  The WR complained about BR standards as a matter of principle and were often ignored, but in some cases the complaint was justified but initially passed off as more anti-Midland ranting from the ex GW men; I wonder if there is an element of this here.  When Brecon and Moat Lane men complained in 1950 that their brand new Ivatt 2MTs could not steam as well as the Dean Goods' they replaced, the complaint was passed up the line to Oswestry, Swindon, and then Derby, which suggested that these modern locos which had been very well received everywhere else might be more acceptable in Mid Wales given a copper capped chimney.

 

An Ivatt was tried out on the GW main line with the Swindon dynamometer car and found to be, as the men had said, not as free steaming as a Dean Goods, and then improved to a very good standard with a new. Swindon designed, chimney.  I mention this as an illustration of how perceptions of inter-company rivalry could affect design and development of locos at this time.  There were certainly those on the Western whose attitude was that Derby had finally won when they should have been concentrating on getting the best out of what they were given, but it coloured the situation and was not helpful to anyone.

[pH]

As I posted previously the problem the 9Fs suffered on the Ebbw Vale branch was not climbing up the valley but coming back down, and had nothing to do with slipping but was simply (or not so simply) an inability to close the regulator resulting in runaways.

 

Mike, when I posted what was said in "Loco Profiles" about the early problems with 9Fs in South Wales, I probably gave the wrong impression about what was identified as the main problem. It was, as you say, the inability to close the regulator. If the engine slipped when working hard uphill, the driver could not shut the regulator to control the slip. The only way to do that would be to apply the brakes, which could lead to the train stalling. Then, on starting away again, the whole sequence could repeat.

[The Stationmaster]

S & D 9F's were never permanently allocated, they were 'borrowed' for the summer months to work the heavy 'Pine's' to time without double heading and came back to their parent sheds for the winter.  They were unsuitable for winter passenger use as they were not fitted with steam heating equipment.  'Evening Star' was used in this way when the loco was allocated to Canton and the first job on it's return would be to clean it, as locos returned from Green Park were always filthy; the shed hadn't the staff to clean them.

 

The throttle issue might be described as teething troubles on a new design in 1954, but it is surprising and alarming that locos could be put into service like that.  The WR complained about BR standards as a matter of principle and were often ignored, but in some cases the complaint was justified but initially passed off as more anti-Midland ranting from the ex GW men; I wonder if there is an element of this here.  When Brecon and Moat Lane men complained in 1950 that their brand new Ivatt 2MTs could not steam as well as the Dean Goods' they replaced, the complaint was passed up the line to Oswestry, Swindon, and then Derby, which suggested that these modern locos which had been very well received everywhere else might be more acceptable in Mid Wales given a copper capped chimney.

 

An Ivatt was tried out on the GW main line with the Swindon dynamometer car and found to be, as the men had said, not as free steaming as a Dean Goods, and then improved to a very good standard with a new. Swindon designed, chimney.  I mention this as an illustration of how perceptions of inter-company rivalry could affect design and development of locos at this time.  There were certainly those on the Western whose attitude was that Derby had finally won when they should have been concentrating on getting the best out of what they were given, but it coloured the situation and was not helpful to anyone.

 

But then there never seem to have been any complaints from WR men about 9Fs apart from the runaway tendency on the Western Valley and a dislike of among many men of firing them properly (which either meant getting the back of one hand scorched or wearing gloves).

 

The main Western moan about Standards related to the 'Britannias' and were in some respects, but not all, well founded.  The biggest problem was that they were left hand drive which effectively meant for Drivers something approaching the need to relearn a road and of course ideally they also had to be fired left handed which sat uneasily with many Firemen.  The other problem came if they were fired right handed because the fireman's overalls, depending on the pattern worn, had a nasty tendency to catch on the blower handle which didn't go down at all well with the Driver.  And of course they had a tendency to slip on starting as weight transferred to the rear and thus onto the trailing carrying axle.  But some men adapted to them without too much complaint however one Laira Driver started an extremely vociferous campaign against them which attracted the support of an MP and became far more widely know and talked about than commonsense dictated by making far more of their unusual and 'hateful' (to Western eyes) points.

 

As a result the Region decided something had to be done and the matter was discussed at a District Motive Power Superintendents' conference as which the Newport DMS volunteered to take them and base them at Cardiff Canton where the enginemen were simply told to get on with them, like them or not - and they did (whether they liked them or not) and made quite a good job of running them.

 

As far as the Ivatt Class 2s are concerned there seems to be some right nonsense out there with at least two references available (from printed works) on the 'net spouting invented rubbish.  None of these engines were allocated to any WR/ex GWR depots prior to delivery of the batches built at Swindon and the first of those did not appear until the year following the trials on Swindon testing plant.  Moreover the trials at Swindon were one of two parts of an investigation into draughting problems on these engines, the other being a previous modification on another engine carried out at Derby.  The story about the Dean Goods is true - what was found on the Swindon plant test was that the Dean Goods steamed better than the 2MT.  The Swindon built 2MTs incorporated a number of changes to suit WR operation plus a change to the chimney and the latter was applied to earlier built engines in the class.

 

Where some confusion for one past author might have come in is that four of the similar 2-6-2Ts were allocated from new in 1946 to LMS sheds in South Wales (Abergavenny and Tredegar) but assuming the BR Database is correct (and it seems to have been well researched) none of them got to former GWR sheds until well after the 2-6-0 testing at Swindon.

 

Why oh why other people can't check facts - readily available on the internet and reliably researched books - I begin to despair,  it would avoid a lot of nonsense being repeated.

[The Johnster]

Canton drivers I spoke to in the 70s when I was a guard at the shed seem to have universally liked the Britannias, which they called Seven Thousands to distinguish from the 70xx series of Castles.  Of course, it is important to remember that these were not in general men who were effusive in their praise of anything except their own stoic forbearance of the terrible conditions they worked under. and the useless equipment they were given to do it with (there was some justification for this), and anything that might have been interpreted as an accolade would have been regarded as letting the side down, so you have to interpret a comment such as 'well, some of them weren't too bad I suppose' as gushing fandom...

 

They were, all the same, described to me in terms such as 'strong', 'free steaming' and 'good sloggers'; pretty good specifications for a loco that would be called upon to drag a 14 coach train from beneath the River Severn to Badminton at a reasonable speed.  They preferred Castles, which rode better and were a bit faster, had less draughty cabs, used less coal and water, and had less terrifying fireboxes for inexperienced firemen who reckoned there was room hold the shed's xmas dance in a Britannia's.  They needed a different firing technique to the GW locos, but it is worth mentioning here that the famous 'haycock' fire was not preferred by Canton men even on GW locos, at least until you were past Badminton, or Llanvihangel if you had turned left at Maindee; an even and incandescent bed was needed, and getting coal to maintain this to the back corners was hard and skilled work.  This attitude may have had an effect on their willingness to try new methods on the Britannias, as compared to the Laira diehards.

 

They were liked on down line work as well, where the tyre wear made the driving wheel diameters even more mixed traffic friendly and suitable on the banks.  You had to consider Stormy, which you didn't get much of a run at after the Bridgend stop, and Skewen, which corkscrewed skywards directly off the end of the platform at Neath!

 

The shed seemed to take a pride in their appearance, but this was not restricted to Britannias; the policy was that all locos on Paddington trains or those heading off region, including the 72xx on the Salisbury and Corby coal trains, should be well turned out.  I wonder if this is one of the reasons 'Evening Star' was initially allocated to the shed.

 

What the men wanted was a loco that could stay on top of a 14 coach Paddington with power to spare, and this was a King.  They got them at the end of the shed's steam life, but for too short a time to make much of an impact.  The Brits were transferred to the LMR, where their use and value was already well understood, and the Kings were replaced by Hymeks, which shows how desperate for power the WR was in 1962/3 while the Warships were failing and occupying bays at Swindon preventing Westerns from being delivered on time and before the flood of Brush type 4s saved the day.  Hymeks could punch well above their weight, but South Wales-Paddington work was asking a bit much!

Edited November 14, 2018 by The Johnster

[Hal Nail]

Pity I only stumbled upon this thread just after I travelled back down form Ebbw Vale a couple of weeks ago. I can’t add much to what has been said but the new station is on the site of the old steel works. Flat there but drops down quickly as I’d contemplated a photo of the train emerging up the incline.

 

Sections are being doubled again round Aberbeeg and I spotted an old circular signal post still in situ in the lineside undergrowth which I think is fairly rare (signals still exist obviously but surprised a disused one wasn’t removed).