Unusual Trap point at Ely in 1950s

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

 

I completely missed this whhen I was cleaning up a neg but a customer pointed it out. When not off the turnout blades are 'open' to both routes. How common was an arrangement like this and what was the correct term for a point acting as a trap on both routes like this?

I can only guess it was GER practice!

 

 

Cheers Tony

[PatB]

Arrangements like this have appeared on RMWeb previously. Apparently it is/was favoured when it is undesirable for derailed stock to be deflected to left or right, the solution being to derail vehicles into the 4-foot instead.

 

In this case there looks to be a running line on the right, and derailing vehicles to the left would appear to risk potentially dangerous damage to the adjacent point-rodding, although there may be other things out of shot which would also make derailing vehicles to the left undesirable.

Edited September 6, 2018 by PatB

[Poor Old Bruce]

Very interesting. It's a pity there wasn't that sort of arrangement at Ladbroke Grove in 1999.

[tomparryharry]

I think we've covered this before..

 

A simple trap is just the one blade, usually for wagons, etc. It would be 'handed' to where you would want to runaway to divert. However, the higher speed runaway would invoke the risk of toppling over.

 

A 'half trap' is where the point blades work as a pair, and again, are diverted left & right. In this instance, the curved portion of the divergence is raised, to allow the runaway wheel to pass over the plain rail, to avoid contact & damage to the track. It minimises the chance of rolling stock toppling over, You'd probably see something like limited clearance safety.

 

A 'full trap' is just that, a proper point, or switch. Usually where passenger stock is used.  You can see the run-off, and sometimes more, like a sand drag.

 

I've never seen a split divergence, such as that in the photo. That said, local conditions require local measures. It's all about safety; someone has to sign it off. The P-Way guys would be really happy to change the sleepers, when the train goes in the dirt! 

 

It would appear that split divergence is gaining popularity, especially now that standards are going over to ISO standards.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[martin_wynne]

It's puzzling. If this was a trap point, it was called a wide-gauge trap, as explained to keep vehicles in line and not deflected left or right. They are often seen on London Underground lines.

 

I say if, because this turnout appears to be part of a scissors crossover, or maybe a half-scissors. In which case it is too close to be a trap and vehicles would clearly not stop quickly enough to avoid fouling the conflicting road.

 

I think what may have happened is that the photographer has simply captured an ordinary set of points in the process of moving over. But with stock apparently on the conflicting road, you would expect them to be locked in the frame. Is this part of a larger neg? Can you show us a bit more of it?

 

Martin.

[TheSignalEngineer]

The full picture may help, but it looks like a wide to gauge trap where the left switch is paired with another end the the right and vice versa. There was definitely one at Ely in the 1930s but I can't match it up at the moment. I remember another at Birmingham New Street No.4 Box which was taken out c1965.

[beast66606]

The full picture may help, but it looks like a wide to gauge trap where the left switch is paired with another end the the right and vice versa. There was definitely one at Ely in the 1930s but I can't match it up at the moment. I remember another at Birmingham New Street No.4 Box which was taken out c1965.

 

*I think* it's opposite Ely Station North box, protecting a siding connection, to the left is a drop and to the right the main running lines. The goods loop was extended over the site sometime from date of the the photo to the late 1960s and the ground built up, can't find a diagram which includes it. The train is leaving the platform loop (current platform 3) and heading towards North Junction. The level crossing is Station Road crossing. It would make sense for it to be a drop in trap.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=19&lat=52.3916&lon=0.2675&layers=168&right=BingHyb

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

 

Thank for the responses.

 

Well it is certainly next to a running line, and opposite Ely North box as DAS says, here is a link to the whole photo (don't want to post it as people simply copy the copyright image.......

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p265322570/hb4caab57#hb4caab57

 

 

I would have thought if it was in use and 'caught' something the resultant de-railment would stop operations pretty effectively!

 

Cheers Tony

Edited September 6, 2018 by Rail-Online

[TheSignalEngineer]

*I think* it's opposite Ely Station North box, protecting a siding connection, to the left is a drop and to the right the main running lines. The goods loop was extended over the site sometime from date of the the photo to the late 1960s and the ground built up, can't find a diagram which includes it. The train is leaving the platform loop (current platform 3) and heading towards North Junction. The level crossing is Station Road crossing. It would make sense for it to be a drop in trap.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=19&lat=52.3916&lon=0.2675&layers=168&right=BingHyb

Thanks Dave. The map seems to match the photo. The use of that arrangement prevents anything rolling out of the siding from falling down the bank.

The wide to gauge trap is normally only used for very slow movements e.g

stabling sidings and the switch rails usually act like a retarder to stop the wagon before it drops between the stock rails.

[TheSignalEngineer]

This picture shows it from the opposite direction. https://www.mediastorehouse.com/national-railway-museum/locations/ely/ely-station-view-looking-station-north-signal-8860175.html

[Junctionmad]

Strange setup indeed , looks like there were two rods to the switch blades , is that the case

[jim.snowdon]

Strange setup indeed , looks like there were two rods to the switch blades , is that the case

It does appear that there are drive rods to each switch rail, although the connection to the left hand one is not exactly visible, but there is only one rod from the drive crank back towards the box. It also looks suspiciously like the crank is in a mid position, all of which would suggest a pull and push operation, either from a lever that stood Normal in the mid-position, or from a combining mechanism in the rodding run, operated by either of two levers.

 

Jim

[iands]

IIRC there was a similar set up at York station on the thru' line between the former platforms 14 and 15 (before the resignalling/electrification), the points being laid "normal" as depicted in the photo above. The difference being that each blade had its own EP "point machine", effectively two different points with only one blade each.

 

Regards, Ian.

[jim.snowdon]

It does appear that there are drive rods to each switch rail, although the connection to the left hand one is not exactly visible, but there is only one rod from the drive crank back towards the box. It also looks suspiciously like the crank is in a mid position, all of which would suggest a pull and push operation, either from a lever that stood Normal in the mid-position, or from a combining mechanism in the rodding run, operated by either of two levers.

 

Jim

Subsequent to my post, I looked more closely at the original picture, and the one from which it was extracted. What look like drive rods to each of the switch rails are actually the detection rods, leading off to the slides behind the shunt signal. The whole ensemble is still operated by a single rod, with the connections between it and the switch rails hidden from view below sleeper level. What is odd, and visible on the whole photograph from which the detail of the trap points was extracted, is that the drive rod continues past the trap and on into the four-foot of the adjoining road, where it is turned through 90 degrees by a crank and led up the four-foot to something that is behind the cameraman. Unfortunately, whilst there other pictures of the junction area, all they show is a lot more by way of wooden covers in the four-foot and across the track, making it impossible to see where this odd rodding run leads to.

 

Jim

[TheSignalEngineer]

The rod along the 4-foot under the loco is probably working the two back-to-bach FPLs on a one in, one out arrangement. The rod going across the track interval would not be connected to the one coming from the cess side. The crank in the 4-foot is most likely on another rod from the box.

 

Just need another picture with no train there to get the full details.

[LNERGE]

There was a far more interesting wide to gauge point at Ely that lasted into the 80's.. It had a facing point lock too.

 

Here is a box diagram showing 17 disc and 18/19 points..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/8102601241/

 

And here is one showing 24/56 points at Station South..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/12841177404/

 

This is a picture of it set to trap..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jjm2009/8187795463/

 

There were others here too but worked by one lever.

Edited September 17, 2018 by LNERGE

[31A]

This one?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/9099650247/in/album-72157632167356684/

 

To the left of the Brush 4.

[LNERGE]

This one?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/52087249@N07/9099650247/in/album-72157632167356684/

 

To the left of the Brush 4.

Yup that's the one. I'd love to find a close up so i could see how the facing point lock worked.

[31A]

There might be one somewhere in that flickr album, but I went quite a long way through it and that was the first one I found of it at all!  Some good pictures of that part of the world in there, though.

[LNERGE]

There might be one somewhere in that flickr album, but I went quite a long way through it and that was the first one I found of it at all!  Some good pictures of that part of the world in there, though.

That Flickr user is a regular at my Ely simulation and so far hasn't managed a close up picture. I live in hope.

[beast66606]

I recently bought a video of Ely area in semaphore days, I intend to put it onto DVD soon and I'll take a look if the point is on there.

[beast66606]

I recently bought a video of Ely area in semaphore days, I intend to put it onto DVD soon and I'll take a look if the point is on there.

 

Started dubbing to DVD this morning, unfortunately even though the video case has an image showing the through lines in place, the video appears to be after they've been removed (along with said point) - however I've only watched the first 5 minutes so ... nice video inside Dock Junction and North Junction so far though.