BR Standard steam classes - was there a proposed shunter class?

[melmerby]

Hi,

 

Could the following also count as first generation successes?

 

Class 08 - eventually redundant in many places due to changing practices

Class 37 - although many refurbished as per the 20s

Class 47 - ditto (including the 57s)

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

I would put the 350hp shunters as pre first generation as they were introduced in 1952 and closely based on the LMS design from 1945 which became Class 11.

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

Hi,

 

Could the following also count as first generation successes?

 

Class 08 - eventually redundant in many places due to changing practices

Class 37 - although many refurbished as per the 20s

Class 47 - ditto (including the 57s)

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

 

The EE Type 3, later Class 37, and the Brush Type 4, later Class 47, were not First Generation as the requirement for neither of their power ranges really existed when the First Generation locos were ordered.   The SR Cromptons, D65XX were however First Generation and have had long lives albeit in small numbers.

[Nearholmer]

A bit OT, but I think that Crompton survival has been helped by the fact that they were well-designed from the point of view of both driver and maintainer. The four good driving positions, the cab layout that keeps noise reasonably contained etc, and that the engine room isn’t too ram-packed. It shows what thoughtful, incremental, development can do, because they are in many respects the same as their pre-WW2 Swiss parents, at least one of which is still running in preservation.

[brack]

A bit OT, but I think that Crompton survival has been helped by the fact that they were well-designed from the point of view of both driver and maintainer. The four good driving positions, the cab layout that keeps noise reasonably contained etc, and that the engine room isn’t too ram-packed. It shows what thoughtful, incremental, development can do, because they are in many respects the same as their pre-WW2 Swiss parents, at least one of which is still running in preservation.

One of these? a 1200hp loco of 65 tons delivered in 1939 and in service until the mid 1970s. The only reason they didn't build more was that the swiss had seen sense and electrified the majority of their routes.

By contrast the EMD FT of 1940 weighed in at 115 tons. There was no need to go with US production and engines, Sulzer diesels were being licence built in Britain long before WW2, the issue was only one of desire and cash, not technology. Essentially a diesel electric loco is little more than an electric loco with an on board diesel engine and generator. We were very capable of making successful electric locos during the 30s (mostly for export) and had access to engine designs which were reliable, powerful and lightweight.

That isn't to say that the US early diesel designs were poor, they weren't, but they weren't really ahead of what other nations could do. They simply had an environment where the pressure to move away from steam was greater and the capital to do so more readily available, plus greater industrial capacity at a time when european firms were moving towards armaments. The fact that EMD were backed by GM and had no ability to build steam locos gave them greater impetus to push into the market. Add in to this that during WW2 the other US builders were told by the government to stop diesel work and build steam locos (aside from Alco RS1 production, much of which was requisitioned for the trans iranian railway) gave EMD a huge lead in market share. That isn't to say that their products would have been successful over here in the 40s/50s.

[The Johnster]

Swiss electrification was indeed good sense, but as a comparison with British or US practice not exactly like for like.  The Swiss have long tunnels, abundant hydro-electric schemes, and need to import coal and oil.  No brainer really; the surprise is that they didn't electrify their roads...

[melmerby]

Swiss electrification was indeed good sense, ......... the surprise is that they didn't electrify their roads...

 But they did

http://www.hess-ag.ch/images/swisstrolley03.jpg

Keith

Edited August 25, 2018 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

 But they did

http://www.hess-ag.ch/images/swisstrolley03.jpg

Keith

 

Fair enough.  We did this in Cardiff back in the day as well.

[Alex TM]

Hi again,

 

I'm told that, in Glasgow's smog of the 50s and 60s, these sort of things were known as "silent death".

 

Regards,

 

Alex.

[The Johnster]

Cardiff wasn't so smoggy, but they could creep up on you sure enough!  I liked them, though; Cardiff's were lovely inside, all wood panelling and red leather seats, with very groovy Art Deco 'sea shell' lampshades.  They were about twice the size of a motor bus, and had double rear axles.  They were originally fitted with a front entrance with a working powered sliding door, and a little booking office from which tickets were issued; given that they had an open platform at the back as most busses did in those days it is not surprising that the honest folk of Cardiff hopped on and off without paying, so they door was plated in.  There were stairs front and back, something else handy for fare dodgers!

 

Cardiffians remember them for their endearing habit of dropping the poles off the wires on busy junctions, leading to the hapless conductor/tress having to extract a long pole with a hook on the end from under the chassis at the back, and hook the poles back on the wire, to the accompaniment of 'encouragement' from the passengers who thought it was a great laugh, and the impatience of the rest of the traffic.  A good wheeze was for a lorry to come to a stand behind, but too close to allow the pole to be extracted; within about 20 seconds there'd be an impatient queue of vehicles behind it all refusing to back up an inch!  How we laughed...

 

Another memory was of them on a bit of road where the taps could opened and she was given her head; they could do about 50mph, the wooden frames creaking like a sailing ship going round the Horn.  Xmas had no. 201, oldest in the fleet, covered in coloured lights, all flashing in unison as she went over the insulated joins in the wires...

 

I was on the last one, on a very rainy January day in 1970.  Kept the ticket for years, but it's as the snows of yesteryear now...

Edited August 25, 2018 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

We've drifted a bit, but not unpleasantly...

[Regularity]

Add in to this that during WW2 the other US builders were told by the government to stop diesel work and build steam locos (aside from Alco RS1 production, much of which was requisitioned for the trans iranian railway) gave EMD a huge lead in market share.

EMD were granted the permission to build main line diesel locos.

Alco built switchers during this era.

The RS1’s had been built before the USA entered WW2, and were requisitioned.