Buidings of the Compagnie des Chemins de fer du Midi

[Joseph_Pestell]

Some references

 

Midi Infrastructure Electrical substation        Loco Revue Hors Série Chemin de Fer Réels 3    

Midi Infrastructure Catenary          Loco Revue 2000 February 22    

Midi Infrastructure Catenary         Loco Revue 2000 March 44    

Midi Infrastructure Catenary          Loco Revue 2000 Hors Série 5    

Midi Infrastructure Crossing keepers cottage - branch line Pyrennees          Loco Revue Hors Série 2000 2

Midi Infrastructure Overhead hoist         Loco Revue 1987 January 23    

Midi Infrastructure Small loading dock          Loco Revue 1993 February 96    

Midi Infrastructure Ogive catenary         RMF 1969 October 413    

Midi Infrastructure Station Building 2 door plus goods shed         Loco Revue 2004 January 93    

Midi infrastructure third rail       Loco Revue 1948 June 191    

Midi infrastructure catenary        Loco Revue 2006 November 30    

Midi infrastructure Water tower        Voies Ferrées 1983 September 76    

Midi infrastructure buffer stops made by Eailway and Atelier Debelleyme RMF 2007 March 62    

Midi infrastructure Maison de PN        Loco Revue 2007 August 59 centrefold

Midi infrastructure 2 track engine shed          Loco Revue 2008 August 38    

Midi infrastructure 2 track engine shed        Loco Revue 2008 September 38    

Midi infrastructure Water tower          Ferrovissime 2008 September 10    

Midi infrastructure water crane          Ferrovissime 2008 September 10    

Midi infrastructure small workshop          Ferrovissime 2008 September 10    

Midi infrastructure Water tower          Ferrovissime 2008 October 24    

Midi infrastructure train shed          Ferrovissime 2009 July 20    

Midi infrastructure Level crossings          Loco Revue 2011 September 50    

Midi infrastructure Bullhead track         Loco Revue 2012 April 54    

Midi infrastructure Crossing keepers cottage           Ferrovissime 2013 January 24    

Midi infrastructure Crossing keepers cottage           Ferrovissime 2013 September 60    

 

 

 

Edited because the forum software converts tables to a continuous string.

All of the above have drawings that should allow a model to be built.

 

Worth mentioning that most (all?) of these would be available from the Librarian of the French Railways Society (former SNCF Society) for members.

[nest]

The line is still in bullhead throughout. It's an important part of its Midi character.

 

Some of my friends in AMHVA used to buy SMP bullhead track from me. Because it has thinner sleepers than Peco, it is easier to cut the sleepers about to represent the rather rough and ready nature of the French pine sleepers.

 

I'll see if I can touch base with a friend in Esperaza who had quite an extensive layout laid in modified SMP.

I'll look into SMP as well. As I said before, this is all very much still in the planning stage. I've only seen SMP used in British outline layouts so I'd be interested to see it used on an HO layout.

 

Nestor

[Northroader]

You can get kits for these buildings here: (I’m not an agent or suchlike)

https://www.architecture-passion.fr/v16/55-midi-ancienne-compagnie-du-midi

[Joseph_Pestell]

Pricey but look very good. I had no idea the range had become so large.

 

Certainly demonstrates my earlier point about French station architecture not being as "samey" as people believe. Especially on the PLM which often came up with a new architecture for each new line.

 

I see he has not yet done the buildings for the coastal line from Miramas to Marseille. They would be a challenge.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Northroader]

You can also go digging on the RMweb equivalent “forum lr presse” here’s one thread with piccies and drawings you may find useful: page 18?

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=54706&hilit=Douzens

Edited August 7, 2018 by Northroader

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just been looking at Cases-de-Pene on Google Earth. Seems possible to get much closer in France than here.

 

The cement works is closer than I thought with a loading shed having been put on the goods shed loop (double-ended siding). One can just about see in the undergrowth redundant trackwork which would have been the passenger loop. And best of all, the TPCF X4300 is actually stopped at the platform.

[nest]

You can get kits for these buildings here: (I’m not an agent or suchlike)

https://www.architecture-passion.fr/v16/55-midi-ancienne-compagnie-du-midi

Oh that's interesting thanks!

Also, I have seen that particular forum, was very useful as well

 

Nestor

[rue_d_etropal]

 

Certainly demonstrates my earlier point about French station architecture not being as "samey" as people believe. Especially on the PLM which often came up with a new architecture for each new line.

I think the basic styles are very similar, but altered to suit location. Main thing being the roof.

Also does not seem to be a general rule concerning window shutters on station buildings. Almost essential in the south, but maybe the companies thought differently.

 

Latest copy of Voie Libre has drawings for a similar sized station building, but one for further north.

Edited August 8, 2018 by rue_d_etropal

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think the basic styles are very similar, but altered to suit location. Main thing being the roof.

Also does not seem to be a general rule concerning window shutters on station buildings. Almost essential in the south, but maybe the companies thought differently.

 

Latest copy of Voie Libre has drawings for a similar sized station building, but one for further north.

 

If I could copy just a few of those pictures from the AP site onto here, you would surely not say that.

 

And quite a few styles that I can think of which he has not done yet.

[rue_d_etropal]

I am not saying there were not exceptions. Some of the stations in Brittany are very different, just that there is a certain style that can be found in a lot different parts of France. Itwould be more difficult to do that on a British layout.

[Andy Hayter]

Just to say that the current (No 17 supposedly May 2018 but arrived July) copy of Rails d'Autrefois issued by the Cercle Historique du rail francais has an article on this line.

[nest]

Just to say that the current (No 17 supposedly May 2018 but arrived July) copy of Rails d'Autrefois issued by the Cercle Historique du rail francais has an article on this line.

Oh I'll keep an eye out for that. I have to say, I'm surprised (pleasantly) by the level of interest in this line. At some point I'll make my way back to that part of France. Planning a layout on it at the moment will have to surfice at the moment.

 

Nestor

[Andy Hayter]

I suspect you will have to join the cercle to get a copy unless you have a very good model railway club that is a member.  The journal does not appear to be on general release anywhere I have found.

 

"Followers" pay 25€ per year for 2 high quality journals and a hors serie publication.  

 

For anyone with an interest in pre-nationalisation railways in France this is an absolute bargain IMHO.

[rue_d_etropal]

As Voie Libre had drawings in latest issue, I thought I woud have a go at a 3D prnted model of a small station building. Even without brick wall detail  the roof tiles slowed down my computer. I think this is slighty smaller that others, but I may use it for a 3mm/ft scale model I have started(one of many), mainly using 15mm wargaming buildings.

Hopefully I will be able to adapt design for other uses.

[nest]

As Voie Libre had drawings in latest issue, I thought I woud have a go at a 3D prnted model of a small station building. Even without brick wall detail the roof tiles slowed down my computer. I think this is slighty smaller that others, but I may use it for a 3mm/ft scale model I have started(one of many), mainly using 15mm wargaming buildings.

Hopefully I will be able to adapt design for other uses.

Very nice. It looks very smartly straight!

 

Nestor

[Joseph_Pestell]

As Voie Libre had drawings in latest issue, I thought I woud have a go at a 3D prnted model of a small station building. Even without brick wall detail  the roof tiles slowed down my computer. I think this is slighty smaller that others, but I may use it for a 3mm/ft scale model I have started(one of many), mainly using 15mm wargaming buildings.

Hopefully I will be able to adapt design for other uses.

 

Very nice. Is the little shed the goods shed? If so, very minimalist and ideal for a micro-layout. Must look up where Chey is.

 

Does not seem to be on your website yet.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Pacific231G]

Ah, without wishing to open a huge can of worms, it is the sort of thing I would notice...

If the prototype had bullhead, it would be nice to model it with bullhead, atleast for me anyway. It is all personal preference of course! Plus, I am a self confessed rivet counter, on my own layouts at least....

 

Nestor

I have heard that the maritime pine sleepers used by the Midi were slightly wider than standard French sleepers which apparently makes the new Peco OO BH track spot on for them in H0.

If you really want to be precise this is the sleepering for the Midi's 11m long sections from about the 1900s. 

You'll notice the two sleepers at 60cm spacing in the centre which, given that the end sleepers were 30cms from the end,  would make the sleepering identical to that used for 5.5m long rails. So, if you go to the trouble of getting the spacing exactly right, notch the rail and add dummy fishplates, you can then have great fun teasing the armchair rivet counters who will demand to know why you've left the job half finished.

 

The reason why the Midi used this unusual sleeper spacing was that a local p.w. gang of four could carry a 5.5m length of rail themselves. That enabled them to replace a broken or damaged 11m rail with just their hand tools and the sleeper spacing to support the join would still be correct.

 

if you want to get it dead right, Apogee Vapeur make a range of etched brass templates for repositioning the sleepers of commercial track (or setting out sleepers for hand laid track) to the spacings used by the various companies including SNCF. This is the one for the Midi's 11metre panels

 

More on that here

http://www.apogee-vapeur.ch/component/content/article/62-la-collection-vmm/gabarits-de-pleine-voie/130-gabarits-pv-utilisation?itemid=188

 

The Midi's rail was DCS (double champignon symétrique) so technically not actually bullhead (double champignon dissymétrique) though that made no difference to how it was laid.

The Etat, Ouest (before it was absorbed by the Etat) Paris Orleans and Midi all used DC rail. The Ouest also had FB (Vignoles) rail on some of its more lightly laid lines (with 30Kg/metre rail) but the Reseau Breton and the Blanc Argent (PO nominally) were laid with DC. The French mainline companies agreed to go over to FB rail in 1925 (compared with 1949 for BR) but it's taken an awfuly long time for that still incomplete changeover to be completed.  One thing you do quite often see, which could be useful for us, is pointwork laid with FB rail even though plain track is still bullhead.

Edited August 31, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

As Voie Libre had drawings in latest issue, I thought I woud have a go at a 3D prnted model of a small station building. Even without brick wall detail  the roof tiles slowed down my computer. I think this is slighty smaller that others, but I may use it for a 3mm/ft scale model I have started(one of many), mainly using 15mm wargaming buildings.

Hopefully I will be able to adapt design for other uses.

Simon. If you're modelling in 3mm/ft scale, the MKD and André Porte Jouef building kits are actually underscale for H0 at 1/100 scale for MKD and probably even smaller for Jouef. That does though make them about right for 3mm/ft scale. The Neuvy (three to six door depending on whether you include one or both wings ) and Villeneuve (two or three door) station buildings are pretty representative of  "standard" French station buildings and can, wilth a bit of attention, form the basis for a perfectly decent though perhaps over familiar model.

 

Though the basic forms were much the same, the major railways did have their own often distinctive architectural styles  but a lot of French railways were built by contractors who often kept things as simple as possbile. So, for a non-specific line (especially a light railway) these simple models can be very useful,and a degree of customisation can disguise their origins. I did find that, though it's well underscale for H0, the Villeneuve kit has door and window openings that are the right size fin 1:87 scale or a smaller station building used by one of the light railways for which I have architect's drawings. The actual doors did though need to be a different design. 

[Mike Storey]

Simon. If you're modelling in 3mm/ft scale, the MKD and André Porte Jouef building kits are actually underscale for H0 at 1/100 scale for MKD and probably even smaller for Jouef. That does though make them about right for 3mm/ft scale. The Neuvy (three to six door depending on whether you include one or both wings ) and Villeneuve (two or three door) station buildings are pretty representative of  "standard" French station buildings and can, wilth a bit of attention, form the basis for a perfectly decent though perhaps over familiar model.

 

Though the basic forms were much the same, the major railways did have their own often distinctive architectural styles  but a lot of French railways were built by contractors who often kept things as simple as possbile. So, for a non-specific line (especially a light railway) these simple models can be very useful,and a degree of customisation can disguise their origins. I did find that, though it's well underscale for H0, the Villeneuve kit has door and window openings that are the right size fin 1:87 scale or a smaller station building used by one of the light railways for which I have architect's drawings. The actual doors did though need to be a different design. 

 

Quite agree. I had thought all the station buildings on the Etat in this area were built to the same design, sized according to need. We have friends who live in the old station building at Villemorin, and I showed them one of the more common kits, which I proposed to build as a major birthday present for them. However, they pointed out that the windows and doors at theirs had no brick arches (unlike the one at Aulnay and others around here on the same line). Bizarre.

[rue_d_etropal]

One of the reasons I like doing French buildings is lack of brickwork. Can make it difficult if you don't have a scale drawing, but the chimney bricks of the building I have done work out smaller that UK ones. Not sure if this is an error in the drawing(unlikely). Luckily in many cases windows and doors are either to a standard size, or have one dimenson which can be worked out. A window or door which looks like it is 1 metre wide, probably is, but on my house I have found some measuremnts almost imperial not metric!

I have noticed that some French modellers will use British brickwork sheets(eg Slaters), in small patches, such as corners, resulting in incorrect number of rows. Also I am sometimes unsure if drawings published actually show brickwork correctly as bond is often shown as stretcher/plain(not sure if there is a difference). Doesn't help when terminology varies. Have seen Engish bond referred to as engineering bond.

I was aware that some older HO kits are actually 1/100. In fact some of the MKD ones use Wills parts, so are actually to 1/76 scale. I have used Italeri 1/72 buildings as part of my HO scenes. As the buildings are old, and large the difference is not noticable.

 

I have looked at the drawings for the slightly bigger(and more standard) station building, and may design something for that. Price for 3D print is high compared to a plastic kit in UK, but those French lazer/card kits are not cheap, and you hav to build them. Mind you for many the fun of building a kit is an important part of the hobby.

[Pacific231G]

Quite agree. I had thought all the station buildings on the Etat in this area were built to the same design, sized according to need. We have friends who live in the old station building at Villemorin, and I showed them one of the more common kits, which I proposed to build as a major birthday present for them. However, they pointed out that the windows and doors at theirs had no brick arches (unlike the one at Aulnay and others around here on the same line). Bizarre.

Before it took over the l'Ouest in 1909, the Etat had been made up in 1878 from a series of railways that were financially challenged and certainly in no position to buld the secondary network that the government was looking towards to open up France.

In your area of the Charentes and Vendée you had the PO line from Poitiers to La Rochelle and Rochefort, the Cie. des Charentes and the Cie. des CF de Vendée. A number of lines conceded to the two latter companies were actually built by the Etat. Even in 1883, four years after the Freycinet plan was adopted ,lines in the area were run by both the Etat and by the PO in what has been described as un ensemble de lignes incohérent. The government then pushed a rationalisation that gave control to the Etat of all the lines inside an area bounded by junctions with the PO at Tours, Saumur, Angers, Nantes  the right bank of the Gironde, Angouleme and Poitiers. (The Etat continued to run lines elsewhere as far east as Chalons sur Marne) When the Etat took over the faiing l'Ouest in 1909 there was a further swapping of lines with the PO lines within the enlarged Etat's "territory" transferring to the PO and vice versa.

The net result of all this was that stations were built by different companies and by the same companies at different times at different levels of expenditure and by different contractors so a lack of uniformity is not surprising.

 

BTW on Midi sleepering, in 1909 the company moved from creosoting their maritime pine sleepers (which apparently absorbed too much of the stuff)  to the Bethell process which used  a preservative based on copper compounds. I think this would have changed the colour of the sleepers ( I think ex Midi sleepers do appear lighter but I've not looked at them with that in mind) .but don't know which other companies also used this process. 

[Mike Storey]

Before it took over the l'Ouest in 1909, the Etat had been made up in 1878 from a series of railways that were financially challenged and certainly in no position to buld the secondary network that the government was looking towards to open up France.

In your area of the Charentes and Vendée you had the PO line from Poitiers to La Rochelle and Rochefort, the Cie. des Charentes and the Cie. des CF de Vendée. A number of lines conceded to the two latter companies were actually built by the Etat. Even in 1883, four years after the Freycinet plan was adopted ,lines in the area were run by both the Etat and by the PO in what has been described as un ensemble de lignes incohérent. The government then pushed a rationalisation that gave control to the Etat of all the lines inside an area bounded by junctions with the PO at Tours, Saumur, Angers, Nantes  the right bank of the Gironde, Angouleme and Poitiers. (The Etat continued to run lines elsewhere as far east as Chalons sur Marne) When the Etat took over the faiing l'Ouest in 1909 there was a further swapping of lines with the PO lines within the enlarged Etat's "territory" transferring to the PO and vice versa.

The net result of all this was that stations were built by different companies and by the same companies at different times at different levels of expenditure and by different contractors so a lack of uniformity is not surprising.

 

BTW on Midi sleepering, in 1909 the company moved from creosoting their maritime pine sleepers (which apparently absorbed too much of the stuff)  to the Bethell process which used  a preservative based on copper compounds. I think this would have changed the colour of the sleepers ( I think ex Midi sleepers do appear lighter but I've not looked at them with that in mind) .but don't know which other companies also used this process. 

 

No disagreement on that. The strange thing with our old line, which was built by Etat in the 1890's, is that adjacent stations differ, as described, on the same line! That was a surprise to me anyway!

[nest]

Hi guys

 

Where all this was leading...

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/137370-a-first-stab-at-french-modelling/&do=findComment&comment=3294108

 

Nestor
 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Before it took over the l'Ouest in 1909, the Etat had been made up in 1878 from a series of railways that were financially challenged and certainly in no position to buld the secondary network that the government was looking towards to open up France.

In your area of the Charentes and Vendée you had the PO line from Poitiers to La Rochelle and Rochefort, the Cie. des Charentes and the Cie. des CF de Vendée. A number of lines conceded to the two latter companies were actually built by the Etat. Even in 1883, four years after the Freycinet plan was adopted ,lines in the area were run by both the Etat and by the PO in what has been described as un ensemble de lignes incohérent. The government then pushed a rationalisation that gave control to the Etat of all the lines inside an area bounded by junctions with the PO at Tours, Saumur, Angers, Nantes  the right bank of the Gironde, Angouleme and Poitiers. (The Etat continued to run lines elsewhere as far east as Chalons sur Marne) When the Etat took over the faiing l'Ouest in 1909 there was a further swapping of lines with the PO lines within the enlarged Etat's "territory" transferring to the PO and vice versa.

The net result of all this was that stations were built by different companies and by the same companies at different times at different levels of expenditure and by different contractors so a lack of uniformity is not surprising.

 

BTW on Midi sleepering, in 1909 the company moved from creosoting their maritime pine sleepers (which apparently absorbed too much of the stuff)  to the Bethell process which used  a preservative based on copper compounds. I think this would have changed the colour of the sleepers ( I think ex Midi sleepers do appear lighter but I've not looked at them with that in mind) .but don't know which other companies also used this process. 

 

I would agree with that, David Old Midi sleepers look very pale, grey rather than brown. I don't think that is just bleaching by the sun.

[Joseph_Pestell]

One of the reasons I like doing French buildings is lack of brickwork. Can make it difficult if you don't have a scale drawing, but the chimney bricks of the building I have done work out smaller that UK ones. Not sure if this is an error in the drawing(unlikely). Luckily in many cases windows and doors are either to a standard size, or have one dimenson which can be worked out. A window or door which looks like it is 1 metre wide, probably is, but on my house I have found some measuremnts almost imperial not metric!

I have noticed that some French modellers will use British brickwork sheets(eg Slaters), in small patches, such as corners, resulting in incorrect number of rows. Also I am sometimes unsure if drawings published actually show brickwork correctly as bond is often shown as stretcher/plain(not sure if there is a difference). Doesn't help when terminology varies. Have seen Engish bond referred to as engineering bond.

I was aware that some older HO kits are actually 1/100. In fact some of the MKD ones use Wills parts, so are actually to 1/76 scale. I have used Italeri 1/72 buildings as part of my HO scenes. As the buildings are old, and large the difference is not noticable.

 

I have looked at the drawings for the slightly bigger(and more standard) station building, and may design something for that. Price for 3D print is high compared to a plastic kit in UK, but those French lazer/card kits are not cheap, and you hav to build them. Mind you for many the fun of building a kit is an important part of the hobby.

 

Simon, French bricks are not so uniform as UK bricks with regard to size. Some areas have very flat bricks.