Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[DonB]

Hope your wound(s) are healing OK. 

 

Very much tongue in cheek To avoid another similar mishap, have you considered this type of prevention?

https://www.cuttingedgeservices.co.uk/chainex-2000-glove-15cm-cuff-nylon-strap

 

[Martin S-C]

I was just being silly. I was using a razor saw at my workbench in a vice which is at one end of our lounge. The lady of the house was at the other end watching telly and was complaining about the noise, so I went into the kitchen and tried to continue on the edge of the rounded worktop using my hand instead of the vice. The job slipped and whoosh... not nice. Just stupidity on my part. Certainly won't do that again! The thumb is under a gauze dressing right now and beginning to itch badly so that's a good sign.

[chuffinghell]

I was just being silly. I was using a razor saw at my workbench in a vice which is at one end of our lounge. The lady of the house was at the other end watching telly and was complaining about the noise, so I went into the kitchen and tried to continue on the edge of the rounded worktop using my hand instead of the vice. The job slipped and whoosh... not nice. Just stupidity on my part. Certainly won't do that again! The thumb is under a gauze dressing right now and beginning to itch badly so that's a good sign.

Ouch hope it heals up soon

[Northroader]

You can wear Kevlar gloves if you’re into such goings on.

[Martin S-C]

I think a wiser and cheaper course of action is to just not play silly beggars again.

[Annie]

Or you could buy your lady a nice set of headphones for watching TV with.  Because I sleep at all kinds of odd hours my daughter got herself a set of headphones so she could watch her programmes on Netflix without disturbing me.

[Martin S-C]

Not a lot to report on recently as the newly completed garage is now suffering a few issues. Condensation behind the power sockets (their backs are almost against the concrete panel wall, outside the celotex insulation where they are exposed to extreme cold) means they drip condensated water whenever I heat or try to dehumidify the room plus there were no vents fitted into the room so the general level of humidity in there is too high. As it currently stands I can't use the power sockets at all. If I run the air-con unit in dehumidify mode, within an hour its like a sauna in there, even with the windows cracked open, so something isn't right. The heater/air-con unit supplied is also far too loud to comfortably be in there while its running which can't continue so the builder is coming back on Tuesday to have a chat and suggest some changes.

The Little Layout Company meanwhile has begun building the baseboard frames off site. I am going for multiple small baseboards bolted together to allow the layout to be removed easily from the property should I ever move. It also means I can shift a board indoors to work on if I need to and that should this project ever get to a stage where it's of exhibitable standard, it can be transported to shows, though I am not building it with exhibiting in mind. The frames will be fixed at heights applicable to what the datum is generally doing at that place on the layout, with actual scenic boards raised on short legs above the open frame to support the different stations. The layout is almost entirely slopes and gradients except at the stations, so an open top construction it will be.

 

Latest plan after I found I had only 26ft 10ins length instead of 27ft 6ins. Current status of a suggested scenic treatment has also been updated.

 

 

Joints X, Y and Z will possibly be deleted to try and limit the huge number of track/baseboard joins and the blue rectangle under Borrocks station is the lifting flap across the door that will follow

on his layout down under. The stream walled into a narrow channel in the NW corner is inspired by that at Eastern United colliery at Lower Ruspidge on the GWR's Forest of Dean branch. It can be seen to the right of the line of wagons in the first picture below during the colliery's development and to the left of the loaded sidings in the lower photograph. I also intend to model a spindly NG tub line bridge for waste to be tipped at the spoil heap inspired by that seen in the first picture.

 

 

 

Images copyright Wild Swan/Lightmoor Press.

Edited December 15, 2018 by Martin S-C

[BWsTrains]

My dad worked as an accountant for the coal board back in the 60s and his one good after dinner story was that he and a couple of other accountant types were visiting an office for an audit one day and were eating lunch in the canteen when over the PA a female voice, in impeccable Home Counties English anounced: "Would Mr R. Sole please report at once to the managers office". The poor fellow had to stand up and leave while the entire canteen around him dissolved into gales of laughter.

Agreed,

 

see my PM for my selected contribution to your station design.

 

Colin

[Annie]

I'm always impressed by people who can design stunningly accurate and detailed layout plans as I can't do that kind of thing for toffee.

 

Excellent pictures of Ruspidge Colliery.  There's just so much useful detail there for anyone who is considering building a small colliery.

 

I hope you get the condensation and venting problems sorted out soon with your layout room as it must be annoying to be so close to having the site for a layout you've always wanted and not being able to use it.

[Martin S-C]

Cheers Colin, the enamel signs you suggested via PM are great.

Many thanks Annie. Yes, pretty frustrating and my mood has taken a fair bit of a dent because of this but the boss of the builders firm was very understanding on the phone yesterday and he'll be coming round on Tuesday. He's certain the power socket condensation and ventilation issiues can be easily fixed and he's going to get in touch with an air-con specialist he knows to investigate an alternative cooler/heater unit. I'm feeling a bit more positive today after a couple of weeks of being an unhappy bunny.

I've got quite a few Wild Swan and Lightmoor books. They mainly focus on GWR subjects but even if you model other prototypes their books are stuffed full of wonderfully detailed and inspirational images like the above. Where they find these superb photos I do not know but they are truly inspirational. My planned model of a wood distillation works was driven by the excellent photos and description of such a facility near Speech House on the Severn & Wye Railway, covered by a Lightmoor title.

The same book revealed a crossing of the S&W line by a horse tramroad in the Forest still protected by a disc and crossbar signal into the 1930s which inspired me to go for some early style signalling on my branch line.

[Annie]

I think the wood products factory on the Hopewood Tramway that uses waste wood from the sawmill would be very similar to the wood distillation works at Speech House Road on the Severn & Wye.  In my case I'm just using a standard Auran interactive industry module from TS2004 with a little extra dressing up, but I would certainly would like to know what a real wood distillation works looks like.

 

 

Unfortunately purchasing reference books is not really something I can afford to do, - even really good ones like those from Wild Swan or Lightmoor.

[Nearholmer]

Martin

 

Where’s the moisture/humidity that is condensing-out coming from?

 

Is it simply your breath, while you’re working in there, or might it be a transient affect as the paint etc from the build is taking ages to dry out due to cold weather?

 

If it’s the latter, you might be better allowing very free ventilation, leaving the door open even, for a few days, and allowing the whole place to ‘run cold’ for a while, before attempting to bring it slowly up to temperature.

 

If it’s simply your breath, it might be sufficient to seal more tightly round the sockets, to prevent warm damp air contacting the cold concrete.

 

If you’’ve Been running aircon or a dehumidifier, the solution is to put the condensor outdoors, not in.

[Martin S-C]

Kevin

 

I am really not sure. Some moisture must be from the painting and plastering. There may also be some generated by my own body inside or from some in the fibre fill that went into the roof void. For the power points issue I am sure the moisture is ambient, from outside.

I am beginning to think an outside air-con/heater unit may be the answer though the builders originally suggested this needs to be a gas powered unit but I can't believe that's necessary. At least it will resolve the noise issue.

 

If it is dry tomorrow (been pouring here this afternoon and evening) I will leave the windows open and allow free air circulation inside and then run the dehumidifier again on Monday to see if that makes any difference.

 

Annie

 

A wood distillation plant took input of a large volume of cordwood which was small diameter branches bundled into "cords" which is a measure of volume of 128 cubic feet about 4ft high, 4ft wide and 8ft long. This was otherwise waste wood left after the felling of oak or other hardwoods. These were packed tightly into cylindrical wire cages or cradles running on standard gauge tracks making a vehicle about 6ft diameter and 10 ft long. The cage wagons were then drawn by electric winch along tracks into iron retorts where the wood was heated to about 340 degrees celcius. Distillation commenced after about 2 hours and continued for around 22 hours. In effect a modern charcoal burning process but highly refined. The Speech House works was built in 1913 and operated by the "Office of Woods" and the cordwood was all drawn from Crown land within the Forest. The end result was the wood was reduced to charcoal but in an extremely pure form. About 70 per cent of the weight of the wood was given off in the form of gases which passed out of the retort via pipes into a tar separator. Once separated from the tars and heaviest oils, the tar-free gases and vapours passed out of the top of the separator into a condenser where naptha and acid vapours were condensed and run into storage vats. There were a number of other processes and a range of products in heavy and light liquid form, as well as gaseous and powder (cake) form were produced. A number of these products aided the war effort. After going through a variety of changes of use the Speech House works finally closed in 1973.

Traffic into the works would be coal for fuel for the boilers as well as a vast amount of cordwood. In the Forest this usually arrived by bundles carried by mule, or horse and wagon and latterly motor lorry but in my case this will of course be delivered by rail in open wagons. Outgoing traffic (in my case again by rail) would be acetate of lime cake in sacks sent in vans or sheeted opens, charcoal again bagged in the same kinds of vehicles and various oils and tar-like liquids in barrels, again in the same railway vehicles. I will probably push the boundaries of realism by having the occasional round or rectangular tar or oil tank wagon carry away these outputs in bulk. These wagons will then go to the greaseworks where whatever is in them will be further processed into lubricants, greases, adhesives or whatever for a variety if manufacturing industries such as for the paint industry, etc.

 

Products included: charcoal, acetate of lime, wood spirit, wood tar, acetone (used in the manufacture of cordite), acetone oils (for production of camoflage 'dope'), etc.

I've tried to mesh my lineside industries together into chains so that wagons and their carried products will meaningfully wend their way around the system.

 

Some detail from Wild Swan's "Severn & Wye Railway - Vol.2":

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Nearholmer]

Intriguing.

 

To teach grandmother to suck eggs, condensation can only occur when warm, moisture-laden air contacts something cold. Concrete walls are renowned for "sweating", acting as points of condensation, but it is the source of the warm(er) humid air, and its ability to contact cold concrete, that must be the keys. 

 

You haven't got exterior air sneaking in at the eaves, getting between the concrete walls and the insulation, have you? that might cause an issue under certain conditions ...... concrete cold after a long night, contacted by damp air that has been warmed by early sun, or has arrived with a change of weather.

 

My utility/railway room, only slightly smaller than yours, has single-skin and pier brick walls, lined very similarly to yours, and, touch wood, I've never had condensation, not even on the (double-glazed) window. I use only a small oil-filled radiator, set to 10 degrees and 1kW, plus trickle ventilation; no aircon or dehumidification. The only time it has felt "close' in there has been when four of us were playing trains on a cold day for several hours, with the heater turned up to 15 degrees. Keeping above 6 degrees should avoid condensation under most foreseeable circumstances in Britain.

 

I don't much like aircon for environmental reasons, and prefer to have a (man)cave-like situation, with lots of insulation and only one small window, which means that there is very little affect from solar gain.

[Annie]

Thank you very much Martin, those page scans are just the thing i was after.  I did look around a bit on the internet and discovered there was another large wood distillation works in Nottinghamshire, but the only photos available weren't all that helpful.  It did seem to be built in the same general format as the  Speech House Road works though.  There's very little on the 'net about wood distillation in the industrial archeology sense so those page scans have answered a lot of questions for me.

 

The buildings I have are for a small American pulp mill that did really exist which Auran creatively displaced from its original site format and changed around to use wood chips as the raw material.  The original pulp mill did extract turpentine which Auran ignored even though the receiving tank is present on the model.  It would make a very small wood distillation works with a few extra additions and while perhaps not entirely authentic it would be useful enough for my purpose,

 

I've put together some rectangular tank wagons as well for bulk loading, but I have plenty of suitable vans as well as sheeted open wagons for carrying sacks and barrels too.  Like you I've tried to create a definite progression of loads and products along the tramway so that goods trains go places with a definite purpose instead of just vaguely travelling up and down the tramway.

[James Harrison]

 discovered there was another large wood distillation works in Nottinghamshire

 

 

Intriguing.  Whereabouts in Nottinghamshire?  I have some narrow gauge bits you see that I'd like to work into the grand plan for Rufford, but I couldn't work out what it should serve....

[Annie]

Shirley Aldred & Co. Sandy Lane, Worksop, Nottinghamshire is the name of the wood distillation works I found James.  Very little detail to be found on the 'net, but apparently there had been a works for extracting wood chemicals and making charcoal on the site since 1871.  The company lasted into the 1990's.

[James Harrison]

Hmm, it would be that, a waterworks or a brewery... decisions decisions....

 

Sorry for the threadjack!

[DonB]

Hmm, it would be that, a waterworks or a brewery... decisions decisions....

 

Sorry for the threadjack!

There are lots of photos, and info. on the now closed Kimberly based Hardy Hansons Brewery on the 'Net.  

Again a tall building housing a "Vertical" brewery ( water in at the top, beer out at the bottom)

Long story, But I gained the reputation of being unable to organise the proverbial at a brewery when I arranged a small group visit to the site in 1980-ish.   

[Martin S-C]

You haven't got exterior air sneaking in at the eaves, getting between the concrete walls and the insulation, have you? that might cause an issue under certain conditions ...... concrete cold after a long night, contacted by damp air that has been warmed by early sun, or has arrived with a change of weather.

 

My utility/railway room, only slightly smaller than yours, has single-skin and pier brick walls, lined very similarly to yours, and, touch wood, I've never had condensation, not even on the (double-glazed) window. I use only a small oil-filled radiator, set to 10 degrees and 1kW, plus trickle ventilation; no aircon or dehumidification. The only time it has felt "close' in there has been when four of us were playing trains on a cold day for several hours, with the heater turned up to 15 degrees. Keeping above 6 degrees should avoid condensation under most foreseeable circumstances in Britain.

Kevin, yes, the eaves were left completely open so there is a circulation of ambient air against the insulated "cell" of the railway room. I asked before construction started if the eaves could be sealed but the builders suggested not to in order to give ventilation. I think the problem could be that the open eaves allow cold air to contact the exterior of the plasterboard "cell" with its warm moist air inside the room.

 

Don't worry about grannies and egg-sucking, I am 100% ignorant of how best to insulate a room and what issues to look for and avoid. It's now irritating me a graet deal that I'm in this position and at the mercy of advice from the builder so any input anyone has to help me would be gratefully received.

 

 

 

James & others - no need to apologise for hijacking the thread, anything industrial/railway related is good here, these conversations often provide inspiration or information for other readers.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Martin S-C

[Martin S-C]

I just had a very positive meeting with the boss of the building company. He agrees the power sockets need to be moved inboard of the plasterboard walls and have the celotex and further insulation reinstated behind then to eliminate the temperature slope that presently exists between their aluminium backs and the fronts. he put his hand near the plug sockets and was surprised at the torrent of icy air coming out of them. The new sockets will be mounted in boxes and not flush-fitted. He will undertake this work as his own expense.

He agreed with me that the current air-con/heater unit is too noisy and also showed surprise when I informed him that the eaves had been left open as well, with cold air pouring in and OVER the celotex insulation so that its effect is minimal. He is going to consult an engineer friend of his whose speciality is dealing with moisture and mildew in older (often council owned) properties so for now any more changes to the ventilation are in abeyance until that is resolved. He intimated that his engineer friend can visit before Christmas.

He will investigate sourcing an alternative air-con/heater unit that will suit my spec (much quieter and programmable with a thermostat so I can have it switch on at leccy cheap rate periods to give the garage a boost of warmth to maintain a modest temperature in there of 10-15 degrees C). He agreed to take the existing unit off my hands and offset its price (new) against any other unit he supplies.

He agreed with me that the room is too humid but had no answer as to why.

All in all I am in a happier place now.

[Annie]

All good news Martin and it sounds if all the issues will be sorted out for you early in the New Year.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Indeed. Onwards and upwards Martin!

[BWsTrains]

I just had a very positive meeting with the boss of the building company. He agrees the power sockets need to be moved inboard of the plasterboard walls and have the celotex and further insulation reinstated behind then to eliminate the temperature slope that presently exists between their aluminium backs and the fronts. he put his hand near the plug sockets and was surprised at the torrent of icy air coming out of them. The new sockets will be mounted in boxes and not flush-fitted. He will undertake this work as his own expense.

 

He agreed with me that the current air-con/heater unit is too noisy and also showed surprise when I informed him that the eaves had been left open as well, with cold air pouring in and OVER the celotex insulation so that its effect is minimal. He is going to consult an engineer friend of his whose speciality is dealing with moisture and mildew in older (often council owned) properties so for now any more changes to the ventilation are in abeyance until that is resolved. He intimated that his engineer friend can visit before Christmas.

 

He will investigate sourcing an alternative air-con/heater unit that will suit my spec (much quieter and programmable with a thermostat so I can have it switch on at leccy cheap rate periods to give the garage a boost of warmth to maintain a modest temperature in there of 10-15 degrees C). He agreed to take the existing unit off my hands and offset its price (new) against any other unit he supplies.

 

He agreed with me that the room is too humid but had no answer as to why.

 

All in all I am in a happier place now.

Hi Martin,

 

Your shed woes have a parallel with my own "railway room (RR)" which although indoors has, in typical modern Aussie style, ventilated eaves, and ventilation vents in the outer brick walls.

 

The inner wall of RR is load bearing on 2 sides so I have double brick there, plaster board interior on the other 2.

Normally not an issue here but downstairs in winter, cold Antarctic winds blow thru the external vents then thru any and every crevice available to the inside, mostly thru the finely rebated mortar lines between brick courses when these meet a flush surface.

 

It was intolerably cold (by Aussie stds anyway) until I stuffed PU foam into every nook, seam and cranny. Hence I can easily see why you have a gale blowing thru the opened power point holes, similar situation. Sealing points of ingress the way to go.

 

Colin

Edited December 18, 2018 by BWsTrains

[Martin S-C]

Yes, I'm no expert at all on these things but to me creating a fully sealed cell with insulation (by pumping in some foam under the eaves) is the way to go, then make some controlled vents via a few drill holes to the outside concrete panel walls and cover these with plastic grills, then control it all with a sensible air-con/dehumidifier/heater unit. In my mind's eye I saw the air-con unit as very much a minor piece of equipment, not used at all between (say) March and June or September and November and then used only to bring the tempertaure up (or down as applicable) during the winter and summer.

I realised during the conversation today that this building firm is actually not qualified at all to install the kind of environment I wanted. I do wish they'd told me that before we started and I spent X 1,000s of pounds.