Nether Madder and Green Soudley Rly

[Stubby47]

If you add just a single pair of sockets to the wall, you could use short cable, multi socket extensions to bring the power to the front of the boards - save you having to reach underneath.

[Martin S-C]

Hi Stu, well the sockets are fitted and paid for now and I'd prefer not to use multi-socket bus bars in ths particular case; no real reason except I just feel safer with 1 socket = 1 plug.

Just had a measure around the room and plotted out all the proposed baseboard legs. Only 1 intersected a power socket and then only by about 4" so that particular socket, when its moved above its partner, will clear the leg.

Sockets are not 12" above floor but 24" so at a good comfortable height.

I will use a remote on/off handset to switch power on and off so I won't have to go scrambling under any baseboards at all, until something breaks.

If I go down the Raspberry Pi and mini camera and screen route for operations/signalboxes then I probably will exceed my current 16 sockets but I'll cross that bridge when I have to.

I haven't been into the room since a few days before Christmas and had left the two windows locked and cracked open about 1 cm so the room was pretty close to ambient air temp. About 12:30 this afternoon I went in to switch the dehumidifier on and when I went in about 4 hours later to plot the baseboard leg positions there was no moisture at all coming out of the sockets, just a fair bit of condensate on the air-con unit's exterior exhaust pipe - this is 6" dia. and goes right out through the wall and is covered by a plastic grill so its full of air at 3deg C right now - hence the condensate; but nothing running from the plug sockets was a pleasant surprise - and no condensate on the windows either.

Perhaps all my moisture problems were from the plaster skim and paint?

[figworthy]

If I go down the Raspberry Pi and mini camera and screen route for operations/signalboxes then I probably will exceed my current 16 sockets but I'll cross that bridge when I have to.

 

Perhaps all my moisture problems were from the plaster skim and paint?

 

I understand your view on multi-plugs, but a Pi power supply is ~13W, so you are unlikely to overload a 4 way with those.

 

A few years (in a December) back I had a room lined and skimmed.   A few days later there was water on the floor at the foot of the outside wall.  My initial reaction was that it was a condensation issue, but it turned out to be the moisture emerging from the plaster as it dried.  No sign of any problem since.

 

Adrian

[Martin S-C]

After plotting out the baseboard legs, today I went into the railway room and drew out the perimeters of the two operating wells. Its going to be tight for six people. Do-able but no room for sprawling about!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note that a couple of the plotted baseboard leg markers are clearly in the wrong place.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Corbs]

It's happening! We're in a similar position having extended the layout into the operating well, but at the end of the day we always want as much railway as possible!

[Martin S-C]

Yup! I'm totally fired up now. The electrician is here pumping foam behind the sockets and replacing the aluminium housings with plastic ones so that should deal with the condensation issues there. Tomorrow Mr Air-Con and Damp Expert is coming round to talk about ventilation and such with a view to also getting a less noisy air-con/heater unit installed.

Big Day next Tuesday when Neil and Alan from the Little Layout Company are here to put in the baseboard frames. Over Xmas the frames have been assembled by Alan off-site. Legs should go in on Tuesday as well then on Wednesday Neil will bring over the printed out 1:1 scale layout plan and we'll have the Grand Unveiling. Due to all the gradients the layout will all be open frame construction except under the stations and main industry areas which will be 9 mm ply.

[Annie]

Wow! - it's really all happening in a rush Martin.  Roll on Tuesday.  Once the layout frames are in place it really will look like you're building a railway.

[RedGemAlchemist]

Got to say I'm seriously jealous of how much space you have to work with.

[Martin S-C]

Absolutely Annie - so far its all been a drain on money converting a garage with no railway in sight. I have to admit I felt a silly rush of joy just drawing out the baseboard perimeter on the floor!

Red Gem - as I mentioned before, the railway will run best with about 4 to 6 operators so I will need people to come over for a day or a weekend and play trains. Its an open invite to readers of this thread as I presume you're all here because this kind of layout appeals.

 

Please contact me by PM if interested.

 

At close of play today electric sockets finished with plastic cases fitted proud and inboard of the plasterboard walls and the holes behind stuffed full of insulating foam. If I get condensate out of the sockets after this, the building must be cursed.

[BWsTrains]

Absolutely Annie - so far its all been a drain on money converting a garage with no railway in sight. I have to admit I felt a silly rush of joy just drawing out the baseboard perimeter on the floor!

 

Red Gem - as I mentioned before, the railway will run best with about 4 to 6 operators so I will need people to come over for a day or a weekend and play trains. Its an open invite to readers of this thread as I presume you're all here because this kind of layout appeals.

 

Please contact me by PM if interested.

 

At close of play today electric sockets finished with plastic cases fitted proud and inboard of the plasterboard walls and the holes behind stuffed full of insulating foam. If I get condensate out of the sockets after this, the building must be cursed.

Martin,

 

Given that needing 4-6 operators might be rather restricting after all your efforts, another approach for operations could as shown here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/2773-granby-junction-00-gwrlms-1947-1948/?p=3418231

 

with video in post #1079 further down the page.

 

Not necessarily with as much "complexity" as Granby. It might allow you to run more movements than an individual can manage. Not for the IT novice I suspect.

 

Colin

[Martin S-C]

Hi Colin

 

Thank you for the link. I have seen computer control on another layout - even an arrangement where drivers could log in from around the world and drive trains while the owner was dispatcher and shunter.

I am not sure I like the idea of computer control however - my friends layout I fear is just a bit too clever and on running weekends the whole thing goes wrong a good half-dozen times. I am very much a hands-on kind of operator. If I am alone I will be happy to either just work that half of the layout that's reachable from one of the two operating wells, or quite happily shimmy between them on my planned wheeled garden gizmo. I am also the kind of person who is happy to spend a couple of hours just shunting some industries or a yard. The NM&GSR is designed as a shunting layout in any case so I fear that remote or computer assisted control would have limited value.

My daughter is 23 and a complete petrol-head - plus she's an engineer so she likes all manner of mechanical things and enjoys attending steam railways with me; she claims that she gets "geeky" over any kind of engineering and she's already baggsied the colliery as her favoured operating location mainly because she likes Peckett W4s and three of them will be stabled there. So I do at least have one regular person to share the fun with and the design and operating method will allow a modest service with two people, if we take it slowly.

Today I had a very fruitful meeting with a guy who supplies units that combat condensation and damp. He installs them often into student accomodation and older properties. The units act as heaters to a small degree but mostly they clean and dry the air, getting rid of all kinds of smells, chemicals, dust and so on. When running, the machine creates a mild pressure cell so that dust and other particles cannot enter the space. Best of all the machine runs constantly taking the power of about 2 x 60w bulbs and runs almost completely silently. After the Niagara-like roar of the first unit, the one he demonstrated made only a whisper - just what I need.

I will need a small heater in the room if it gets very cold, as the cleaner/dehumidifier doesn't specifically warm the room up much and we have a spare old blower one that we don't use that can be requisitioned, but I have decided to abandon the idea of air-conditioning and go through the first summer without any and see how things pan out. The insulation in roof and walls ought to help anyway and its always possible to open door and windows. If it gets unbearably hot I'll consider other options but that is a bridge to be crossed when I arrive at it.

[Harlequin]

Sorry to bring things down but I'm a bit worried that the expert might have been more interested in selling you one of his units than actually working out what the problem is and how to fix it at source.

Edited January 9, 2019 by Harlequin

[Annie]

All good news then Martin.  It seems then that for you 2019 will be the Year of the Layout.  All good stuff indeed.

 

It sounds like your daughter would get on well with my daughter.  My daughter rebuilt the engine in the Rover car she owned at the time and she is also deeply fascinated by how things work.  She's not into railways though as flight sims are very much her thing.  A health issue means that she isn't allowed to hold a pilot's licence which was a big disappointment for her so she flies virtual planes instead.

 

I know virtual model railways aren't entirely a match for a physical real world layout in the way they can be operated, but with my own little tramway empire I have it set up so I can just work and shunt one industry in particular should I want to.  Works out fine in my experience and it should be just the same for your own layout Martin.

[Nearholmer]

Martin

 

I’m heartened that you’ve decided to give sans-AC a go, if the windows aren’t so big as to allow lots of solar gain, I think it will be fine, and I share the mild scepticism expressed above about the need for dehumidification once things have stabilised. Mind you, if the dehumidifier has a suitably low setting/rating, it might eat no more electricity that a heater set down low, so yer pays yer money and yer makes yer choice.

 

K

[Martin S-C]

Hi Phil

 

We did have a discussion about the source of the moisture and he thought that the initial plaster skim drying and the 15 litres of paint I put in there were most of the problem. Since the issue began (when I was painting in mid December) I have left the windows cracked open and not gone in there at all over the Xmas period. After the power sockets were moved yesterday I turned the dehumidifier unit on (about 3:00pm) and left it running all night and this morning until about 10:30 when the guy arrived. At the end of that time there was no condensation anywhere on the power sockets, the consumer unit underside or on the windows (all of which were wet before). The only water was on the extractor hose to the dehumid unit which has always been an issue. It seems to me like the condensation problem is reducing.

According to the information booklet the unit I am buying costs only £4.47 a year to run at trickle setting at leccy costs of £0.15 per kWh, and £5.00 at medium setting. This is without turning on its heating unit, though I will need to do that I expect.

[Harlequin]

Hi Martin,

 

Plaster certainly does emit huge amounts of moisture while it's drying - I know that to my own cost, unfortunately. I hope that was the major cause of your problem but the concrete slab walls could still be a problem.

 

There are two factors:

1. The concrete slabs might not be sealed and may allow moisture to permeate through. The slabs are exposed to atmospheric humidity, rain and dampness from the ground if they are not on a DPC. (Has it rained seriously since the inside was plastered?)
2. The temperature gradient through your wall build-up means that the concrete slabs are the coldest part of the structure and so, if you keep the interior habitably warm, any moisture in the air or in the structure will condense on the inside surfaces of the slabs.

A dehumidifer will help with point 2 a bit but if the moisture is coming through the concrete (point 1), not just in the air, then you might still have a problem.

 

This is one of those times where a little knowledge may be a dangerous thing (on my part). Maybe there's nothing to worry about but it would be good if you could hear that from a real expert!

 

Sorry to be raising the possibility of problems at this stage but it's done in the spirit of helping you to create your wonderful vision successfully.

[Martin S-C]

Thanks Phil... gah, now I don't know what to do. I think the guy who came today was keen to sell me his unit, and his experience seemed to be limited to only advice rearding it.

I shall go back to my builder and see what they suggest.

 

A friend of mine who owns an energy, performance and design company and who specialises in air-con and insulation at the industrial level thinks the unit I've been offered is just a scam for an ordinary heat-exchange unit. He's been in the business for 30 years so I trust his judgement...

Edited January 9, 2019 by Martin S-C

[chris p bacon]

Plaster certainly does emit huge amounts of moisture while it's drying -

 

the concrete slab walls could still be a problem.

 

There are two factors:

1. The concrete slabs might not be sealed and may allow moisture to permeate through. The slabs are exposed to atmospheric humidity, rain and dampness from the ground if they are not on a DPC. (Has it rained seriously since the inside was plastered?)
2. The temperature gradient through your wall build-up means that the concrete slabs are the coldest part of the structure and so, if you keep the interior habitably warm, any moisture in the air or in the structure will condense on the inside surfaces of the slabs.

A dehumidifer will help with point 2 a bit but if the moisture is coming through the concrete (point 1), not just in the air, then you might still have a problem.

 

 

Just picking up a couple of points in Phils post.

 

You haven't actually had the room plastered, you've had it 'drywalled' which uses a miniscule amount of water and would have evaporated within 2 days.   Same for the paint, although it looks to be a lot of moisture it is applied in small quantities and evaporates and doesn't cause a problem over weeks.

 

I'm not a fan of dehumidifiers at all and have never had reason to use one as a well insulated and ventilated building doesn't need one. 

 

One question i've not seen an answer to is whether there is a vapour barrier ? The concrete walls are permeable and so the structure within should be shielded from the moisture that can wick through it.

 

There should be a vapour barrier between the rear of the concrete wall and the room, you don't usually need this with celotex but few people actually tape all the joints and boards to studs to create one.

 

As an example. https://www.lidget.co.uk/concrete-garage-insulation-lining/

 

One thing I would have done differently is to put Celotex in the ceiling, the gain would have been much greater over the blanket used.

 

An interesting track plan.....I wouldn't put too much weight on though...  

[Harlequin]

Thanks for your expert input Dave, er Chris, er Dave.

 

You're quite right about the plaster of course - just skimming would produce much less moisture than full plastering. (Maybe I was reliving my own self-build nightmare.)

[chris p bacon]

Maybe I was reliving my own self-build nightmare

 

 

Welcome to my world.....

 

It's an impressive plan ...but I've not seen the words 'Great Northern' mentioned, so it must still be at the planning stage....

[BWsTrains]

Hi Phil

 

We did have a discussion about the source of the moisture and he thought that the initial plaster skim drying and the 15 litres of paint I put in there were most of the problem. Since the issue began (when I was painting in mid December) I have left the windows cracked open and not gone in there at all over the Xmas period. After the power sockets were moved yesterday I turned the dehumidifier unit on (about 3:00pm) and left it running all night and this morning until about 10:30 when the guy arrived. At the end of that time there was no condensation anywhere on the power sockets, the consumer unit underside or on the windows (all of which were wet before). The only water was on the extractor hose to the dehumid unit which has always been an issue. It seems to me like the condensation problem is reducing.

 

According to the information booklet the unit I am buying costs only £4.47 a year to run at trickle setting at leccy costs of £0.15 per kWh, and £5.00 at medium setting. This is without turning on its heating unit, though I will need to do that I expect.

Your typical good quality paint is about 45% solids = pigments, acrylic-styrene polymer, wetter etc so max water you got from paint was 8 litres and as I suggested before a mere thimbleful from skimming plaster. So your continuing problem was not that in any shape or form. 

 

Not having closely followed the details of the shed build as I come here for mundane things like the layout design and scratch building, my gut feel would be it's condensation somewhere, given your climate. Why even in Melbourne we sometimes get condensation when warmer moist air hits cool tiles fitted to concrete slab (my railway room floor) but a little air circulation soon fixes that. Bonus of the floor is the room never gets above 21C when its 42C outside.

 

Colin

Edited January 9, 2019 by BWsTrains

[Martin S-C]

Thanks for all the suggestions, especially Dave, Phil, Colin.

I've chosen to reject the unit offered to me today - it was expensive and a friend of long standing who is a heating and insulation engineer and who largely rebuilt an 1870s French manor house on his own ridiculed it at the cost it was offered.

 

The plaster was just a skim but there was more used around the window and door reveals so there was a fair bit of water in that. Not a lot, but some.

The paint was cheap so he thinks out of 15 litres of paint, a good deal of that is water. The garage was extended by 1.2 m with a new concrete floor under that section so he thinks that's another 20L of water down there. The concrete panelling will exude water too if there is a temperature slope.

 

His suggestion is that what is needed is to seal the room and heat it, so that the air draws moisture into it (hot air retains moisture, cold air dumps it), then after 12 hours, open the door and windows to let the hot wet air out and recharge the room with cold dry air (assuming it doesn't rain). Rinse and repeat for about a week and that should get rid of any moisture from the build.

After that, hold a watching brief and see what else occurs.

As this is a zero cost option I see no reason not to try it and after a week consider further options.

I do appreciate everyone's input, its extremely helpful and brings up options and views I'd never have considered on my own. I also feel hopelessly inadequate - and consequently frustrated - as I am ignorant of damp, condensation and related subjects so have been at the mercy of whatever the builder and his people have told me...

Edited January 10, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Nearholmer]

I think you’ve received good advice from your expert pal.

[Martin S-C]

I'm going with Plan B then and will let the room "breathe" until Tuesday. Tuesday is baseboard day so I hope all will be ready by then (all appendages crossed).

[Harlequin]

You can get automatic, humidity sensitive vents that open when there's humidity in the air and close when not. They are based on a simple bit of plastic that contracts when it is dry so they are very simple, no electricity required.

 

For example:

https://www.bpdstore.co.uk/glidevale-a161-humidity-sensitive-extract/p/180

 

And you can get smaller trickle vents for windows that use a similar mechanism.

 

I have three in my house that have been working for 10 years so far with no maintenance required other than cleaning.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Harlequin